"Jim Hall' like tone from Peter Bernstein?

[SOLR]

I've been on a Peter Bernstein re-discovery lately and the youtubes from the Emmet Cohen's event 1 yr ago sound more like Jim Hall than any of the previous material from him I've listened to lately. Every note has that Hall "snap" to them. Almost a little pickup saturation for lack of better explanation.

More evident on this one (Bones)

and My Ideal

and unit 7

Compare that with older tracks

and this

The Amp seems to be giving him some concerns though in the last 2 tracks..

Still , a very different guitar sound to me, I like both though

Sol

[Jonah]

And?

[SOLR]

The thing is how different the same player with the same guitar sounds.

So many variables other than the hands of the player as such. Amps, mic (type )placement on amps, acoustic in venue and so on.When you think about it, the amateur player at home, listening and wanting to somehow emulate that sound without a priceless instrument or expensive pickup/electronics swap can probably live with a more affordable instrument (in the short term at least)

We all have that sound in our head that we're looking for and rarely are satisfied with the axe of the moment, after hearing these tracks I am more at peace with my choices ..yes clean is super nice (and I have a guitar that does that ) but man so is a little Jim Hall "squashing".It's the sound I loved in the 70's and guess what? it's back! ( heck, even P. Grasso is doing it with the "Emmet's place" intensity

)

BTW all those sessions feature top musos, well worth a listen!!



S

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=SOLR;1381046]I've been on a Peter Bernstein re-discovery lately and the youtubes from the Emmet Cohen's event 1 yr ago sound more like Jim Hall than any of the previous material from him I've listened to lately. Every note has that Hall "snap" to them. Almost a little pickup saturation for lack of better explanation.


seems a bit loud for the room..could be he is using a very heavy pick..it does change the tone..I use a polished stone and cannot go back to
plastic..even the heavy jazz styles

[Christian Miller]

According to the internet he uses 1.83mm jazz IIIs, though this could of course be a hallucination of our silicon overlords.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

I've been on a Peter Bernstein re-discovery lately and the youtubes from the Emmet Cohen's event 1 yr ago sound more like Jim Hall than any of the previous material from him I've listened to lately. Every note has that Hall "snap" to them. Almost a little pickup saturation for lack of better explanation.


seems a bit loud for the room..could be he is using a very heavy pick..it does change the tone..I use a polished stone and cannot go back to
plastic..even the heavy jazz styles

It’s funny I’ve gone the other way, I stayed off with all sorts of fancy picks including some very pretty stone ones, but I’ve gone back to 1.5 tortex jim Dunlop’s jazz III Xls but it doesn’t matter too much. Tortex picks do a nice roll off of the treble if you angle them.

There’s also the pointy end/round end debate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonah]

The thing is how different the same player with the same guitar sounds.

So many variables other than the hands of the player as such. Amps, mic (type )placement on amps, acoustic in venue and so on.When you think about it, the amateur player at home, listening and wanting to somehow emulate that sound without a priceless instrument or expensive pickup/electronics swap can probably live with a more affordable instrument (in the short term at least)

We all have that sound in our head that we're looking for and rarely are satisfied with the axe of the moment, after hearing these tracks I am more at peace with my choices ..yes clean is super nice (and I have a guitar that does that ) but man so is a little Jim Hall "squashing".It's the sound I loved in the 70's and guess what? it's back! ( heck, even P. Grasso is doing it with the "Emmet's place" intensity

)

BTW all those sessions feature top musos, well worth a listen!!



S

I hear the difference (and I heard that session with Emmet before, so it was not new to me... and though as I said I hear the difference I still do not hear it as essential.
I did not notice it when I was listening before, only when you put it here as a direct comparison.

But still there is something that makes it Peter's sound (not tone but sound - as the sound is more than just the tone)... and specifically tone color is not that much crucial for me.

I heard him live as few weeks ago in Belgium and he also sounded quite as usually... but again I am not that much sensitive to the nuances of the tone colours.

[Cunamara]

I hear the difference you're referring to; they both sound like Peter Bernstein to me, however. I wonder to what extent the sound on these videos was accurately reflective of the sound in the room. The mics and their placement, EQ on the mics and in the audio processing of the videos, etc., might be contributory. The Emmet's Place videos appear to be recorded specifically to post on YouTube rather than primarily for the audience in the room; in the other case, the video looks to have been made in a club where the primary consideration was probably the paying customers in front of the band.

Much of the "sound" a guitarist (or any musician) gets is not dependent on the amp, pickup, etc. Timbre is much of what we hear as "tone:" where they strike the string, how they strike it (energy, pick angle, etc.), what notes and chords they play, where those are located on the neck, how long they sustain the note, whether it's legato or staccato. This part of tone is "in the fingers" rather than the pickup, amp, even the guitar itself. It's why you could recognize Pete with any guitar in his hands.

Those things are only somewhat emulable- as Jerry Garcia once said, you can't escape your own nervous system. Often as guitarists we instead emulate instrument choice, amps and amp settings, etc. There is often a feedback loop- if we like the sound we hear, we're likely to relax and sound even better. If we don't like the sound we hear, we may tense up and not play as well.

[SOLR]

Often as guitarists we instead emulate instrument choice, amps and amp settings, etc. There is often a feedback loop- if we like the sound we hear, we're likely to relax and sound even better. If we don't like the sound we hear, we may tense up and not play as well.

I do agree, after all, pro musicians spend their entire lives (and serious money) searching for the "tone" be it on a violin cello bass or guitar. Much of the threads on this site relate to the search for the tone.

I was referring to the following definition of tone with the emphasis on pleasing tone or sound qualities.

From the web wiki :

However, there is a difference between tone and timbre. Timbre refers to the specific harmonic content of an instrument that differentiates it from other instruments.Tone refers to the sound qualities of a particular sound. For example, many instruments can produce a loud tone or a deep tone or a pleasing tone

The observation I was making in the OP was how similar (in the Emmet Cohen YT) his sound is to early Jim hall. I knew Peter had studied with Jim but I never felt that "influence of tone" until the Emmet YT. I was more aware of Bernstein's Monk'isms.

It's all good, it's just more enjoyable, to me.

BTW listen to Bones around 2'13 to 2'40 it's got Jim's solo vibe from Concierto ..well, a vibe anyway....

S

[Jonah]

I do agree, after all, pro musicians spend their entire lives (and serious money) searching for the "tone" be it on a violin cello bass or guitar.

I think this is what amateur players spend their entire lives for (unless they spend it for searching some other player's tone of course).

Accomplished players do not really search for the tone, they just.... find it.

[John A.]

I've been on a Peter Bernstein re-discovery lately and the youtubes from the Emmet Cohen's event 1 yr ago sound more like Jim Hall than any of the previous material from him I've listened to lately. Every note has that Hall "snap" to them. Almost a little pickup saturation for lack of better explanation.

More evident on this one (Bones)

and My Ideal

and unit 7

Compare that with older tracks

and this

The Amp seems to be giving him some concerns though in the last 2 tracks..

Still , a very different guitar sound to me, I like both though

Sol

There's a ton of compression on that recording (I can hear it "pumping"); don't know whether that's in the source audio or youtube. Either way, it tends to boost mid-range content with a "scooped" source such as Bernstein's typical sound. I think that's what you're hearing. Bernstein never uses a compressor live as an effect, and I imagine it's used a lot less aggressively on his recordings.

[SOLR]

There's a ton of compression on that recording (I can hear it "pumping"); don't know whether that's in the source audio or youtube. Either way, it tends to boost mid-range content with a "scooped" source such as Bernstein's typical sound. I think that's what you're hearing. Bernstein never uses a compressor live as an effect, and I imagine it's used a lot less aggressively on his recordings.

I think that's indeed what we're hearing, seems to be from the source recording audio 'cause I think it's also on the Grasso track I linked to....Mind you, I tend to listen at low levels, so it's pleasant enough , a bit louder and it gets "unrealistic" for Bernstein (or Grasso).

S

[sgosnell]

The amp at Emmet's place was miked up close and near center. I don't know how the other tunes were recorded, but mic placement, if used or not, can make a definite difference, as can the settings used in mixing.

[SOLR]

The amp at Emmet's place was miked up close and near center. I don't know how the other tunes were recorded, but mic placement, if used or not, can make a definite difference, as can the settings used in mixing.

I had noticed that but I perceived the same "squashing" on Grasso's night with a different amp and install, Grasso's was angled upward and the mic did seem further away. With the Lori Mechem trio it's a different amp and miked to the side.

All of which points to a technical decision before the YT posting, it brings on an unsettling perspective: do the players know how they sound online? On commercial recordings they have final veto I would guess, but live online content can be from anything between an iphone to pro sound crew, and, these days, online content is definitely a publicity for future sales at concerts, so, in the end, it's their business that could suffer or benefit...The Emmet's recordings of that Bernstein show got lots of thumbs up and positive comments for the quality of guitar sound !!! But, it' s not Peter's usual "tone".

S

[Cunamara]

I think that professional musicians are pragmatic about tone. They know that every gig sounds different, every room sounds different, every club backline amp sounds different, we all sound different ourselves from time to time. They just get on with it and play the gig. You can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't.

I think that we as amateurs are often more concerned about our "tone," and at least in my case perhaps overattentive to that and not attentive enough to what I actually play.

[Litterick]

On other forums, they are all talking about this one weird trick for achieving perfect tone on any amp. If you know nothing about the tone stack, and ignore the room, it seems plausible.

[bozobreak]

To me the main difference is due to the underpowered Vibrolux, with inefficient speakers in the first clips vs. high headroom Twin in the second clip.
Love them both.

[mr. beaumont]

I think that professional musicians are pragmatic about tone. They know that every gig sounds different, every room sounds different, every club backline amp sounds different, we all sound different ourselves from time to time. They just get on with it and play the gig. You can control what you can control, and you can't control what you can't.

I think that we as amateurs are often more concerned about our "tone," and at least in my case perhaps overattentive to that and not attentive enough to what I actually play.

This. The key is just to sound good. Not to chase an exact sound...that can be a fruitless quest. And fruitless quests can lead to scurvy.

[pamosmusic]

This. The key is just to sound good. Not to chase an exact sound...that can be a fruitless quest. And fruitless quests can lead to scurvy.

Yeah. Pete in particular. I saw him once with a buddy who was a long term student of his and we were sitting pretty close to the stage at the vanguard while he was warming up and he sounded just terrible.

Band hits and he starts playing and it’s perfection. Cuts through just right without being too loud.

I asked my friend about it after and he was like “Pete doesn’t care what he sounds like on his own.”

Flip side being I saw him solo at smalls and he sounded great on his own. So he’s adjusting his sound to cut through in the room and doesn’t really get precious about it beyond that.

[John A.]

The amp at Emmet's place was miked up close and near center. I don't know how the other tunes were recorded, but mic placement, if used or not, can make a definite difference, as can the settings used in mixing.

That's would typically yield a brighter tone (I don't care if I'm supposed to say timbre; I'm gonna say tone) and louder transients than edge of speaker or further back. It could also introduce the need for a lot of compression.

To me the main difference is due to the underpowered Vibrolux, with inefficient speakers in the first clips vs. high headroom Twin in the second clip.
Love them both.

I really don't think so. I've heard him play through both of his Vibroluxes several times (including with bands that are a lot louder than that). That's not how they sound cranked in the room. It's a compression artifact.

[sgosnell]

I'm not sure I would call a Vibrolux underpowered for that size venue. Mine, before it committed suicide, was fine with the volume near, sometimes just above, 2. With the speakers in parallel, the impedance of the speakers is only 4 ohms, and it can get very loud. I still use my VR as a cabinet at home, and it's on the order of twice as loud as any single-speaker cab I have, with any head I've tried.

In the clip above, when I said miked near the center of the amp, that means it was essentially outside both speakers, being between the two of them, not in the center of a speaker. I'm far from expert on miking speakers, but I can see where the mic is placed in the video. And I believe, with my limited experience and knowledge, that mic placement can possibly influence the tone that is recorded.