Great swing style players

[Hep To The Jive]

I can’t recall if these guys have been referenced on forum before.

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Well, if this is not great, I don't know what is. I consider Jonathan Stout as the outmost expert on pre bop jazz guitar, but those guys are on the same level.

Please don't post Gypsy jazz players as an example of something 'greater', it's NOT the same thing.

I would never try to learn it from books, though, no matter how tempting. These videos are out there, spent some time listening, watching, transcribing, it is much much more productive way of learning. At least for me.

Final point, a bit controvercial, and no disrespect to all those amazing players... But I was searching for some music to download from the best guys, and I realized that watching them doing their thing on youtube live is very different experince then listening to their studio recordings. The studio recordings sound exactly like what they trying to achieve- the best possible copy of the orginal players of that era. I don't know why, but I felt not inspired to listen to it like I would to original artists. It's like the playing is great but... it's not updated for 2024, does it make sense? Like I wish there was some twist to it, that made it distinct for our times, but it's not there.

Anyway, just some points.

[Christian Miller]

I've never, ever been 'negative for kicks' as you put it. I said that I'd seen/heard better because it's true, I have. Don't ask me where, though, I can't remember.

Nevertheless, I had a very good look. I found Joscho Stephan doing 'It Don't Mean A Thing' which was impressive but didn't post it because the way he does it isn't strictly that old swing style so I didn't post it. But you can google it if you want.

Yeah the manouche jazz stuff is a bit of a different thing. I thought you’d mention one of those players. They are invariably very impressive, technically beast players, but that’s not the only thing I listen for. American style swing guitar is a different style really.

And while Joscho is quite pure manouche jazz, the style has actually evolved quite a bit since django. In fact the very period players like Duved Dunaevsky sort of stand out.

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[Christian Miller]

Fwiw, the word great has two senses. The Beatles were great but Beethoven was great.

Well Bernstein did place the Beatles on a par with Schubert? And as I prefer Schubert to Beethoven…. Haha.

Seriously … comparing collaborative writers of popular songs to a composers of long form compositions on paper is a bit apples and oranges. The Beatles are certainly as revolutionary and influential in their own field as Beethoven was in his. Not a bad comparison. Bird and Coltrane would share that spiritual affinity while at the same time doing something that resists direct comparison.

I mean Beethoven can be so WIERD and UGLY. Esp. the late stuff. I love it.

I don’t think most people reading the OP title or hearing someone say ‘that guy’s great!’ necessarily places that comment in the context of, say, the Western Canon.

If someone says I played great on a gig, I don’t instantly assume this places me on a par with Bach (or Bird or whoever).

I think most people get this context.

Obviously with players aiming to recreate past styles there’s always the question of them living in the shadow of those great musicians who created the style. Someone who writes a symphony convincingly in Beethoven’s style is not as great as Beethoven. But it is amazing and impressive.

I like to see it as a different path, a classical period performance approach to jazz, if you like.

It’s not my own path but I do admire those who do it well. We don’t all have to be restless progressives, and we can find individuality and creativity in past styles.


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[digger]

Yeah the manouche jazz stuff is a bit of a different thing. I thought you’d mention one of those players. They invariably technically beast players, but that’s not the only thing I listen for.

And while Joscho is quite pure manouche jazz, the style has actually evolved quite a bit since django. In fact the very period players like Duved Dunaevsky sort of stand out.

I recall an excellent interview with Dave Kelbie talking about his time playing with Fapy Lafertin on the 94/96 recordings and how they were playing these old swing tempos and then Stochelo, and others, arrived on the scene and Fapy (who could play fast, but usually chose other priorities) said words to the effect "Well that's that then. It's all going to change now." And it did. Sadly - much as I love Stochelo - because now that technical beast thing seems to be expected.

Derek

[Christian Miller]

I recall an excellent interview with Dave Kelbie talking about his time playing with Fapy Lafertin on the 94/96 recordings and how they were playing these old swing tempos and then Stochelo, and others, arrived on the scene and Fapy (who could play fast, but usually chose other priorities) said words to the effect "Well that's that then. It's all going to change now." And it did. Sadly - much as I love Stochelo - because now that technical beast thing seems to be expected.

Derek

Yeah it’s like an acoustic version of shred. Bluegrass is similar.

For the wider point, Dave Kelbie’s a case in point. I’ve never actually met or played him but know many musicians who work with him.

There’s a violinist called Matt Holborn for instance who plays with Kouresh Kanani and Harry Diplock - check them out if you haven’t - and would choose Dave to play on another project exactly because he just does the Danny Barker rhythm thing. Having three raging virtuosi on a gig is a lot of notes.

And of course Dave has played with Angelo deBarre, Evan Christopher and all the rest of them because he is a rhythm specialist and happy to fix up the gigs and be the supporting guy, not the star. It’s a good way to be.

And he is really good at what he does, needless to say.

I mean I went to a Birelli gig and of course the man is an outrageous musician on every level, but after the millionth sweep picked note I was really digging Hono. That guy’s amazing.


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[garybaldy]

Great? I have to say I've seen better.

Silly comment. Those guys are still great. I don't know why I or anyone else has bothered to respond to your comment. I certainly won't be responding to any more of yours. You seem to thrive on it.

[Stevebol]

Well Bernstein did place the Beatles on a par with Schubert? And as I prefer Schubert to Beethoven…. Haha.

Seriously … comparing collaborative writers of popular songs to a composers of long form compositions on paper is a bit apples and oranges. The Beatles are certainly as revolutionary and influential in their own field as Beethoven was in his. Not a bad comparison. Bird and Coltrane would share that spiritual affinity while at the same time doing something that resists direct comparison.

I mean Beethoven can be so WIERD and UGLY. Esp. the late stuff. I love it.

I don’t think most people reading the OP title or hearing someone say ‘that guy’s great!’ necessarily places that comment in the context of, say, the Western Canon.

If someone says I played great on a gig, I don’t instantly assume this places me on a par with Bach (or Bird or whoever).

I think most people get this context.

Obviously with players aiming to recreate past styles there’s always the question of them living in the shadow of those great musicians who created the style. Someone who writes a symphony convincingly in Beethoven’s style is not as great as Beethoven. But it is amazing and impressive.

I like to see it as a different path, a classical period performance approach to jazz, if you like.

It’s not my own path but I do admire those who do it well. We don’t all have to be restless progressives, and we can find individuality and creativity in past styles.


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The Beatles started off doing pimp house gigs in Germany. That's why they're respected by older R&B musicians in San Diego.
Those gigs are long gone. I caught the last one in far east. I'm just happy to have some brain cells left after that.

[ragman1]

Please don't post Gypsy jazz players as an example of something 'greater', it's NOT the same thing.

I was asked to post it by somebody. My original comment was here (and there are the two following posts):

Great swing style players

[ragman1]

Well Bernstein did place the Beatles on a par with Schubert? And as I prefer Schubert to Beethoven…. Haha.

Seriously … comparing collaborative writers of popular songs to a composers of long form compositions on paper is a bit apples and oranges. The Beatles are certainly as revolutionary and influential in their own field as Beethoven was in his. Not a bad comparison. Bird and Coltrane would share that spiritual affinity while at the same time doing something that resists direct comparison.

I mean Beethoven can be so WIERD and UGLY. Esp. the late stuff. I love it.

I don’t think most people reading the OP title or hearing someone say ‘that guy’s great!’ necessarily places that comment in the context of, say, the Western Canon.

If someone says I played great on a gig, I don’t instantly assume this places me on a par with Bach (or Bird or whoever).

I think most people get this context.

Obviously with players aiming to recreate past styles there’s always the question of them living in the shadow of those great musicians who created the style. Someone who writes a symphony convincingly in Beethoven’s style is not as great as Beethoven. But it is amazing and impressive.

I like to see it as a different path, a classical period performance approach to jazz, if you like.

It’s not my own path but I do admire those who do it well. We don’t all have to be restless progressives, and we can find individuality and creativity in past styles.


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It was only an effort, perhaps clumsy, to demo the difference between the two senses of 'great', not a literal comparison of the Beatles and Beethoven!

[ragman1]

Bluegrass is similar.

Absolutely. First Doc, then Clarence, then Tony Rice, then everybody was at it. The latest popular incarnation seems to be Billy Strings who is very modern and does some very interesting things, love it or hate it.

You should seriously try this one out!

[AllanAllen]

Might as well post this since Jonathan's come up in the thread a few times.

[ragman1]

Like I said before, these two can do it but I point blank refuse to elevate them to the 'great' category. In fact they're plainly struggling with some of it.

Whether you lot like it or not.

[pamosmusic]

Like I said before, these two can do it but I point blank refuse to elevate them to the 'great' category. In fact they're plainly struggling with some of it.

Whether you lot like it or not.

Those typing fingers of yours write an awful lot of checks your guitar fingers can’t cash, my guy.

[MarkRhodes]

Well, if this is not great, I don't know what is. I consider Jonathan Stout as the outmost expert on pre bop jazz guitar, but those guys are on the same level.


Final point, a bit controvercial, and no disrespect to all those amazing players... But I was searching for some music to download from the best guys, and I realized that watching them doing their thing on youtube live is very different experince then listening to their studio recordings. The studio recordings sound exactly like what they trying to achieve- the best possible copy of the orginal players of that era. I don't know why, but I felt not inspired to listen to it like I would to original artists. It's like the playing is great but... it's not updated for 2024, does it make sense? Like I wish there was some twist to it, that made it distinct for our times, but it's not there.

I get that.
If the goal is to do something you love as best you can, then the question of whether it is updated does not arise.
If one wants to update a sound one loved when young---and this, I think, happens a lot---well, then, you are trying to make a new audience feel the way you once did, and in that context, their response is the key to whether you're doing a good job or not.
For any style---and jazz is a style, or a set of styles---there are those who learn the style and then apply it to the standard rep (-this can be blues or folk or rockabilly or bluegrass as well as jazz). It's like singing you develop your voice and use it on material you may not have written yourself. (For stylists in general, composition takes a backseat to performance.)
You mention Jonathan Stout. I love to hear him play. I don't know that he does anything he didn't pick up from Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Allan Reuss, et al. Makes no difference to me. I love to hear him play.
If---and this is another large category of musicians---you want to incorporate a smattering of influences into something you put your own stamp on (---and here rock guitarists provide a good example because, say, Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eddie Van Halen have such distinct styles and approaches that are "them" despite having many obvious influences), well, that's a whole other goal.
Still some others do what they can with what they have and, years down the road may look back and see a certain logic in the development that they were unaware of at the time, going strictly by what felt right to them at the time. (Such people may have many passionate fans who nonetheless a lot of their output sucks----I never believe anyone who says they like everything by Dylan or the Grateful Dead, or Miles or Coltrane, for that matter.)
I really should be practicing...

[Stevebol]

Like I said before, these two can do it but I point blank refuse to elevate them to the 'great' category. In fact they're plainly struggling with some of it.

Whether you lot like it or not.

They're good enough. If I was a rich philanthropist living in California I'd hire them.
I like listening to shitty bands in Carlsbad when I vacation there.

P.S. That's not to say the Japanese duo is a shitty band. I think they're good.

[ragman1]

They're good enough. If I was a rich philanthropist living in California I'd hire them.
I like listening to shitty bands in Carlsbad when I vacation there.

Oh, sure, they're very hireable. They look like two nice, cheerful guys having fun. I expect they'd be pretty popular if they're not already.

[Hep To The Jive]

I get that.
If the goal is to do something you love as best you can, then the question of whether it is updated does not arise.
If one wants to update a sound one loved when young---and this, I think, happens a lot---well, then, you are trying to make a new audience feel the way you once did, and in that context, their response is the key to whether you're doing a good job or not.
For any style---and jazz is a style, or a set of styles---there are those who learn the style and then apply it to the standard rep (-this can be blues or folk or rockabilly or bluegrass as well as jazz). It's like singing you develop your voice and use it on material you may not have written yourself. (For stylists in general, composition takes a backseat to performance.)
You mention Jonathan Stout. I love to hear him play. I don't know that he does anything he didn't pick up from Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Allan Reuss, et al. Makes no difference to me. I love to hear him play.
If---and this is another large category of musicians---you want to incorporate a smattering of influences into something you put your own stamp on (---and here rock guitarists provide a good example because, say, Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eddie Van Halen have such distinct styles and approaches that are "them" despite having many obvious influences), well, that's a whole other goal.
Still some others do what they can with what they have and, years down the road may look back and see a certain logic in the development that they were unaware of at the time, going strictly by what felt right to them at the time. (Such people may have many passionate fans who nonetheless a lot of their output sucks----I never believe anyone who says they like everything by Dylan or the Grateful Dead, or Miles or Coltrane, for that matter.)
I really should be practicing...

I hear ya bro. I love very much listening to Jonathan Stout myself, and even more so to steal his ideas )). I know what he does is lifted from Alan Reuss primarily, but I'm too lazy to investigate the source. Why bother, I learn the better and clear version from JS))

I love that style very much, but I never see myself commiting to it 100%. It's just so much more I wanna do.

Oh and I just thought of a guy who is a good example 'updating' his roots. Brian Setzer is known for rockabilly, but he never done it fully traditional way. He is definetely legit and learned every lick from his predcessors, but he took it to another place. I love his original albums because it's always fresh sounding. Wether he does rockabilly or swing. And he's a hell of a swing player! If I am to spend money on buying a modern swing record, I go to him.

[RLetson]

I'm not sure that the speed/technical-difficulty thing operates along exactly the same axis as "musically satisfying" or whatever broader artistic-emotional bit of bandwidth applies to our engagement with music. Every guitaristic tradition or genre I've observed (and there have been plenty over the last seven decades that I've been paying attention) includes a dollop of musical athleticism, and some of it earns a lasting place in a composition or performance, and some of it is crowd-pleasing (or player-pleasing) stuntwork.* Hot Club and bebop cultures have speed/technique sides that short-change the melodic-ballad-dance parts of their traditions. There's a point at which I can't listen fast enough.

*On the crowd-pleasing end, I've observed audience reactions to bits of playing that sound dramatic but that I recognize as not all that technically challenging. Many such passages and pieces are fun and exciting, but they're like spices--I wouldn't want an entire plateful. I mean, do I want an entire set of "Orange Blossom Special"-velocity fiddling?

[Stevebol]

Oh, sure, they're very hireable. They look like two nice, cheerful guys having fun. I expect they'd be pretty popular if they're not already.

With American jazz it's phasing. Japanese jazz is more melodic content. It's easier to tell with pianists.

[Stevebol]

Drawing a comparison doesn't necessarily imply competition. Venus is nearer to us than Mars but they're not in competition with each other.

Thank you for the article. Japanese and American people are both human and many humans like jazz. It was war and politics that created the problems with jazz being accepted in Japan and, inevitably, those problems were overridden by a common love of the music. One only wishes it were so in so many other areas of life.

If I may ask, where are you from originally? What took you to Japan?

I don't know why I was offered a 6 month gig in Osaka in 1985. It's about time I got used to not knowing.

[MarkRhodes]

I hear ya bro. I love very much listening to Jonathan Stout myself, and even more so to steal his ideas )). I know what he does is lifted from Alan Reuss primarily, but I'm too lazy to investigate the source. Why bother, I learn the better and clear version from JS))

I love that style very much, but I never see myself commiting to it 100%. It's just so much more I wanna do.

Oh and I just thought of a guy who is a good example 'updating' his roots. Brian Setzer is known for rockabilly, but he never done it fully traditional way. He is definitely legit and learned every lick from his predecessors, but he took it to another place. I love his original albums because it's always fresh sounding. Whether he does rockabilly or swing. And he's a hell of a swing player! If I am to spend money on buying a modern swing record, I go to him.

Yeah, I like Setzer too. He definitely did his homework. And he loves the music. I have several of his records. My favorite Stray Cats song was "Stray Cat Strut," which isn't a rockabilly song at all, but a Swing-tune based on the minor turnaround (-"Hit the Road, Jack," Kessel's "Salute to Charlie Christian," etc.). He studied with a sax player as a kid, and then with Ray Gogarty, a jazz guitarist. I remember in one of his early interviews saying that Ray would always make him play in Bb and he would whine, "Can't we play something in E for a change?"

For him, rockabilly was like punk. (Same energy.) He says he first heard "Be-Bop-A-Lula" on a jukebox in Max's Kansas City (a club in Manhattan, best known to me from a live Velvet Underground album recorded there when I was a kid.) That was in '76. It's amazing how FAST he got so good in a style he did not grow up listening to. Of course, he went his own way with it, and still does.

Another guy who loved rockabilly (and especially Clff Gallup, guitarist with Gene Vincent) is Jeff Beck. Here, Brian and Jeff do Eddie Cochran's "Twenty Flight Rock." (The Stones used to do this live.)

[ragman1]

I don't know why I was offered a 6 month gig in Osaka in 1985. It's about time I got used to not knowing.

Sounds like a movie :-)

[Christian Miller]

Moaaaar

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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Moaaaar

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Nothing against our Jonathan, but the two other guys smoke him in a bong before even waking up. I dig especially the guy with the glasses on the right. He has understood Africa.

[AllanAllen]

Nothing against our Jonathan, but the two other guys smoke him in a bong before even waking up. I dig especially the guy with the glasses on the right. He has understood Africa.

How dare you