Great swing style players

[ragman1]

Well Bernstein did place the Beatles on a par with Schubert? And as I prefer Schubert to Beethoven…. Haha.

Seriously … comparing collaborative writers of popular songs to a composers of long form compositions on paper is a bit apples and oranges. The Beatles are certainly as revolutionary and influential in their own field as Beethoven was in his. Not a bad comparison. Bird and Coltrane would share that spiritual affinity while at the same time doing something that resists direct comparison.

I mean Beethoven can be so WIERD and UGLY. Esp. the late stuff. I love it.

I don’t think most people reading the OP title or hearing someone say ‘that guy’s great!’ necessarily places that comment in the context of, say, the Western Canon.

If someone says I played great on a gig, I don’t instantly assume this places me on a par with Bach (or Bird or whoever).

I think most people get this context.

Obviously with players aiming to recreate past styles there’s always the question of them living in the shadow of those great musicians who created the style. Someone who writes a symphony convincingly in Beethoven’s style is not as great as Beethoven. But it is amazing and impressive.

I like to see it as a different path, a classical period performance approach to jazz, if you like.

It’s not my own path but I do admire those who do it well. We don’t all have to be restless progressives, and we can find individuality and creativity in past styles.


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It was only an effort, perhaps clumsy, to demo the difference between the two senses of 'great', not a literal comparison of the Beatles and Beethoven!

[ragman1]

Bluegrass is similar.

Absolutely. First Doc, then Clarence, then Tony Rice, then everybody was at it. The latest popular incarnation seems to be Billy Strings who is very modern and does some very interesting things, love it or hate it.

You should seriously try this one out!

[AllanAllen]

Might as well post this since Jonathan's come up in the thread a few times.

[ragman1]

Like I said before, these two can do it but I point blank refuse to elevate them to the 'great' category. In fact they're plainly struggling with some of it.

Whether you lot like it or not.

[pamosmusic]

Like I said before, these two can do it but I point blank refuse to elevate them to the 'great' category. In fact they're plainly struggling with some of it.

Whether you lot like it or not.

Those typing fingers of yours write an awful lot of checks your guitar fingers can’t cash, my guy.

[MarkRhodes]

Well, if this is not great, I don't know what is. I consider Jonathan Stout as the outmost expert on pre bop jazz guitar, but those guys are on the same level.


Final point, a bit controvercial, and no disrespect to all those amazing players... But I was searching for some music to download from the best guys, and I realized that watching them doing their thing on youtube live is very different experince then listening to their studio recordings. The studio recordings sound exactly like what they trying to achieve- the best possible copy of the orginal players of that era. I don't know why, but I felt not inspired to listen to it like I would to original artists. It's like the playing is great but... it's not updated for 2024, does it make sense? Like I wish there was some twist to it, that made it distinct for our times, but it's not there.

I get that.
If the goal is to do something you love as best you can, then the question of whether it is updated does not arise.
If one wants to update a sound one loved when young---and this, I think, happens a lot---well, then, you are trying to make a new audience feel the way you once did, and in that context, their response is the key to whether you're doing a good job or not.
For any style---and jazz is a style, or a set of styles---there are those who learn the style and then apply it to the standard rep (-this can be blues or folk or rockabilly or bluegrass as well as jazz). It's like singing you develop your voice and use it on material you may not have written yourself. (For stylists in general, composition takes a backseat to performance.)
You mention Jonathan Stout. I love to hear him play. I don't know that he does anything he didn't pick up from Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Allan Reuss, et al. Makes no difference to me. I love to hear him play.
If---and this is another large category of musicians---you want to incorporate a smattering of influences into something you put your own stamp on (---and here rock guitarists provide a good example because, say, Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eddie Van Halen have such distinct styles and approaches that are "them" despite having many obvious influences), well, that's a whole other goal.
Still some others do what they can with what they have and, years down the road may look back and see a certain logic in the development that they were unaware of at the time, going strictly by what felt right to them at the time. (Such people may have many passionate fans who nonetheless a lot of their output sucks----I never believe anyone who says they like everything by Dylan or the Grateful Dead, or Miles or Coltrane, for that matter.)
I really should be practicing...

[ragman1]

They're good enough. If I was a rich philanthropist living in California I'd hire them.
I like listening to shitty bands in Carlsbad when I vacation there.

Oh, sure, they're very hireable. They look like two nice, cheerful guys having fun. I expect they'd be pretty popular if they're not already.

[Hep To The Jive]

I get that.
If the goal is to do something you love as best you can, then the question of whether it is updated does not arise.
If one wants to update a sound one loved when young---and this, I think, happens a lot---well, then, you are trying to make a new audience feel the way you once did, and in that context, their response is the key to whether you're doing a good job or not.
For any style---and jazz is a style, or a set of styles---there are those who learn the style and then apply it to the standard rep (-this can be blues or folk or rockabilly or bluegrass as well as jazz). It's like singing you develop your voice and use it on material you may not have written yourself. (For stylists in general, composition takes a backseat to performance.)
You mention Jonathan Stout. I love to hear him play. I don't know that he does anything he didn't pick up from Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Allan Reuss, et al. Makes no difference to me. I love to hear him play.
If---and this is another large category of musicians---you want to incorporate a smattering of influences into something you put your own stamp on (---and here rock guitarists provide a good example because, say, Hendrix, Keith Richards, and Eddie Van Halen have such distinct styles and approaches that are "them" despite having many obvious influences), well, that's a whole other goal.
Still some others do what they can with what they have and, years down the road may look back and see a certain logic in the development that they were unaware of at the time, going strictly by what felt right to them at the time. (Such people may have many passionate fans who nonetheless a lot of their output sucks----I never believe anyone who says they like everything by Dylan or the Grateful Dead, or Miles or Coltrane, for that matter.)
I really should be practicing...

I hear ya bro. I love very much listening to Jonathan Stout myself, and even more so to steal his ideas )). I know what he does is lifted from Alan Reuss primarily, but I'm too lazy to investigate the source. Why bother, I learn the better and clear version from JS))

I love that style very much, but I never see myself commiting to it 100%. It's just so much more I wanna do.

Oh and I just thought of a guy who is a good example 'updating' his roots. Brian Setzer is known for rockabilly, but he never done it fully traditional way. He is definetely legit and learned every lick from his predcessors, but he took it to another place. I love his original albums because it's always fresh sounding. Wether he does rockabilly or swing. And he's a hell of a swing player! If I am to spend money on buying a modern swing record, I go to him.

[RLetson]

I'm not sure that the speed/technical-difficulty thing operates along exactly the same axis as "musically satisfying" or whatever broader artistic-emotional bit of bandwidth applies to our engagement with music. Every guitaristic tradition or genre I've observed (and there have been plenty over the last seven decades that I've been paying attention) includes a dollop of musical athleticism, and some of it earns a lasting place in a composition or performance, and some of it is crowd-pleasing (or player-pleasing) stuntwork.* Hot Club and bebop cultures have speed/technique sides that short-change the melodic-ballad-dance parts of their traditions. There's a point at which I can't listen fast enough.

*On the crowd-pleasing end, I've observed audience reactions to bits of playing that sound dramatic but that I recognize as not all that technically challenging. Many such passages and pieces are fun and exciting, but they're like spices--I wouldn't want an entire plateful. I mean, do I want an entire set of "Orange Blossom Special"-velocity fiddling?

[MarkRhodes]

I hear ya bro. I love very much listening to Jonathan Stout myself, and even more so to steal his ideas )). I know what he does is lifted from Alan Reuss primarily, but I'm too lazy to investigate the source. Why bother, I learn the better and clear version from JS))

I love that style very much, but I never see myself commiting to it 100%. It's just so much more I wanna do.

Oh and I just thought of a guy who is a good example 'updating' his roots. Brian Setzer is known for rockabilly, but he never done it fully traditional way. He is definitely legit and learned every lick from his predecessors, but he took it to another place. I love his original albums because it's always fresh sounding. Whether he does rockabilly or swing. And he's a hell of a swing player! If I am to spend money on buying a modern swing record, I go to him.

Yeah, I like Setzer too. He definitely did his homework. And he loves the music. I have several of his records. My favorite Stray Cats song was "Stray Cat Strut," which isn't a rockabilly song at all, but a Swing-tune based on the minor turnaround (-"Hit the Road, Jack," Kessel's "Salute to Charlie Christian," etc.). He studied with a sax player as a kid, and then with Ray Gogarty, a jazz guitarist. I remember in one of his early interviews saying that Ray would always make him play in Bb and he would whine, "Can't we play something in E for a change?"

For him, rockabilly was like punk. (Same energy.) He says he first heard "Be-Bop-A-Lula" on a jukebox in Max's Kansas City (a club in Manhattan, best known to me from a live Velvet Underground album recorded there when I was a kid.) That was in '76. It's amazing how FAST he got so good in a style he did not grow up listening to. Of course, he went his own way with it, and still does.

Another guy who loved rockabilly (and especially Clff Gallup, guitarist with Gene Vincent) is Jeff Beck. Here, Brian and Jeff do Eddie Cochran's "Twenty Flight Rock." (The Stones used to do this live.)

[ragman1]

I don't know why I was offered a 6 month gig in Osaka in 1985. It's about time I got used to not knowing.

Sounds like a movie :-)

[Christian Miller]

Moaaaar

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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Moaaaar

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Nothing against our Jonathan, but the two other guys smoke him in a bong before even waking up. I dig especially the guy with the glasses on the right. He has understood Africa.

[AllanAllen]

Nothing against our Jonathan, but the two other guys smoke him in a bong before even waking up. I dig especially the guy with the glasses on the right. He has understood Africa.

How dare you

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

How dare you

Dare what? Say what I think?

[pamosmusic]

Oh you’re Bop Head?

[Christian Miller]

Took me a moment too, but recognised him from the inimitable style of the posts

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[pingu]

Might as well post this since Jonathan's come up in the thread a few times.

Is Jonathan playing an ATC Barney Kessel on there ?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Oh you’re Bop Head?

I am not Bop Head any more. I am Boss Man Zwiebelsohn now (which is my new stage name) and I am currently in the process of recruiting musicians for a band that will be called The Ghost Riders. The first member is a young drummer who went to Berklee and plays like John Bonham, no bullshit. Nobody can play the Eric Claton version of Knocking On Heaven's Door as slowly as we do. Which in turn gives me as a singer incredible freedom in phrasing.

Since I simply haven't had a chance to practice Bebop Heads in the last few months because I've been busy with other musical things the whole time (which, in retrospect, have brought me light years ahead), I've decided to say goodbye to the name Bop Head and asked Dirk to change my name here to my new stage name.

[Hep To The Jive]

I am not Bop Head any more. I am Boss Man Zwiebelsohn now (which is my new stage name) and I am currently in the process of recruiting musicians for a band that will be called The Ghost Riders. The first member is a young drummer who went to Berklee and plays like John Bonham, no bullshit. Nobody can play the Eric Claton version of Knocking On Heaven's Door as slowly as we do. Which in turn gives me as a singer incredible freedom in phrasing.

Since I simply haven't had a chance to practice Bebop Heads in the last few months because I've been busy with other musical things the whole time (which, in retrospect, have brought me light years ahead), I've decided to say goodbye to the name Bop Head and asked Dirk to change my name here to my new stage name.

Well, too bad. At least 'Bop Head' gave it a feel of some kind of sanity ))

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Took me a moment too, but recognised him from the inimitable style of the posts

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I have to admit that recently I have been using Deepl and Google Translate quite a bit as a band aid.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well, too bad. At least 'Bop Head' gave it a feel of some kind of sanity.

Truer words have not been spoken.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Well, too bad. At least 'Bop Head' gave it a feel of some kind of sanity ))

In this world going more and more mad I feel more sane than ever.

I know what I want, I know what I can do and what not (yet). After all, I recently learned the changes to Girl From Ipanema and Black Orpheus on the bandstand. And the booking is slowly rolling in. The next step, as I said, is the band. Since my wallet and everything in it miraculously turned up in my mailbox a week later, I also have the business card of this Brazilian bassist back. And I will also manage to get the contact details of this African keyboard player -- I think his name is Jimmy D (or Dee?). The first time I met him he brought a Keytar and a pedal board a the blues session.

[Irishmuso]

Is Jonathan playing an ATC Barney Kessel on there ?

Well maybe it's me, but they sound like they've never heard any other rendition of Sweet Georgia Brown and are playing it from a lead sheet. I mean, it just doesn't sound musical? I admit I didn't get past the first minute for that reason.