Great swing style players

[AllanAllen]

I just bought Yugi's book (Early Jazz Guitar Chord Soloing.) He's a great player.

I was going to buy it, but my wife said I should make a Christmas list of books instead.

[MarkRhodes]

I was going to buy it, but my wife said I should make a Christmas list of books instead.

In that case, you might put this on your Wish List. It's solid and good.

[AllanAllen]

Already did!

[ragman1]

So you've nobody better to tell us about, you're just being negative for kicks then?

I've never, ever been 'negative for kicks' as you put it. I said that I'd seen/heard better because it's true, I have. Don't ask me where, though, I can't remember.

Nevertheless, I had a very good look. I found Joscho Stephan doing 'It Don't Mean A Thing' which was impressive but didn't post it because the way he does it isn't strictly that old swing style so I didn't post it. But you can google it if you want.

[supersoul]

I found Joscho Stephan doing 'It Don't Mean A Thing' which was impressive but didn't post it because the way he does it isn't strictly that old swing style so I didn't post it. But you can google it if you want.

Post it!
Youtube videos don't have ads when they're embedded in a post.

and... threads are supposed to drift on JGO

[ragman1]

Post it!

Oh, okay :-)

[ragman1]

Actually - serious point - you never know who might be reading your comments, and people do sometimes get very upset at what people say online.

Maybe, but my view is that if I feel something which I think is true I can either just say it or start twitching and get neurotic about upsetting someone with a thin skin. So I say it. I'm not going to walk around on eggshells worrying about what people will think and treating the place like a home for the bewildered.

In any case, I see things almost every day here which descend to the personal or are cynical, sneering, unpleasant, and all the rest of it. And, strangely, no one says anything. But I criticise something musical and look what happens. There's nothing personal about it at all, it's just a view or observation, but the responses those sort of comments provoke only betray the people who make them.

So while speech should remain free, OTW I tend to follow the "if you don;'t have anything nice to say, don't say anything."

Well, that's what we're told our grandparents used to say. Very traditional, but I'm not a great follower of tradition. Which has definitely saved me from many a ghastly trap!

Anyway, if you have any knowledge of me at all in the past however many years it's been ... I'm not prone to saying nice things I don't believe.

Exactly, glad to hear it.

These guys are in my opinion great swing guitarists.

Yes, they're quite good.

Btw, I didn't see that other vid you posted with Josh Dunn before I posted mine. I've just seen it now. I liked that a lot and I'm off to dig him out! Thanks for posting it.

[ragman1]

More Josh Dunn. Guy's a natural, absolutely. Lovely touch, listen to that chord work.

[ragman1]

Fwiw, the word great has two senses. The Beatles were great but Beethoven was great.

[ragman1]

Are saying Joscho Stephan shows off? I agree, he does a bit and it can grate a little. A little of that abundance goes a long way. Just a personal view, of course.

And I didn't post it originally :-)

[bediles]

Actually - serious point - you never know who might be reading your comments, and people do sometimes get very upset at what people say online. (There was a recent thing about boneheads commenting on a Mike Stern video recently, who is recovering from a major injury and had to rebuild his playing.)

So while speech should remain free, OTW I tend to follow the "if you don;'t have anything nice to say, don't say anything." I do find it hard to bite my tongue and I'm not overly successful at it. But that's what I aspire to.

Anyway, if you have any knowledge of me at all in the past however many years it's been ... I'm not prone to saying nice things I don't believe.

These guys are in my opinion great swing guitarists.

Denis chang actually brought up a comment I made here in one of his vids and he's not even a member. I only stumbled on it by random chance. I felt kinda bad after and decided to bring the positivity from then on

[mr. beaumont]

Sure, they're nailing the style, etc, but they're not GREAT. Which was Christian's word. Sorry, but I don't have to be gentle and spare their feelings, it's just a YouTube.

Bluff called. Show me a great example.

You realize how many people join here and are scared off by bullshit like yours, right?

[ragman1]

Bluff called. Show me a great example.

Answered already.

You realize how many people join here and are scared off by bullshit like yours, right?

It's not bullshit and being scared off is their affair.

Someone posts a vid of two guys playing swing guitar described as great. I say, yes, it's not bad but I've seen better. That's all I said, no more, no less. And you're saying someone who's just joined reads that and is so 'scared' they promptly leave!

Scared of what? What on earth are you talking about? If you're going to erupt at least let it make sense!

From long experience I can tell you right away what scares people off. They come here, ask a simple beginner's question, and are deluged with long posts of degree level theory that they couldn't possibly understand. So they do the usual 'Thank you for your help' post and are never seen again.

I've seen that a hundred times and I know you know what I'm talking about.

[ragman1]

It's not a contest in Japan.

I wasn't talking in a competitive way. I don't believe in competitiveness.

[pamosmusic]

Bluff called. Show me a great example.

Could we interest you in several inappropriately slow, meandering takes on a beloved jazz standard instead?

[ragman1]

I happen to like slow, sorry about that. But it has nothing to do with what we're talking about at the moment so I'm not sure of your point.

[Mick-7]

I wasn't talking in a competitive way. I don't believe in competitiveness.

No one would know that from your comments, "better" implies competition, comparing one person's abilities to another's and judging one to be superior or inferior to the other.

Bluff called. Show me a great example.

Answered already.

Where is your example? You said that you've seen musicians who were better interpreters of 20-30's swing and then post an example of a guy playing gypsy jazz. You do know that is a different musical genre? Your ludicrous defense of your disparaging comments just makes you appear clueless.

[ragman1]

It can be healthy in some situations.

Drawing a comparison doesn't necessarily imply competition. Venus is nearer to us than Mars but they're not in competition with each other.

Thank you for the article. Japanese and American people are both human and many humans like jazz. It was war and politics that created the problems with jazz being accepted in Japan and, inevitably, those problems were overridden by a common love of the music. One only wishes it were so in so many other areas of life.

If I may ask, where are you from originally? What took you to Japan?

[Hep To The Jive]

I can’t recall if these guys have been referenced on forum before.

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Well, if this is not great, I don't know what is. I consider Jonathan Stout as the outmost expert on pre bop jazz guitar, but those guys are on the same level.

Please don't post Gypsy jazz players as an example of something 'greater', it's NOT the same thing.

I would never try to learn it from books, though, no matter how tempting. These videos are out there, spent some time listening, watching, transcribing, it is much much more productive way of learning. At least for me.

Final point, a bit controvercial, and no disrespect to all those amazing players... But I was searching for some music to download from the best guys, and I realized that watching them doing their thing on youtube live is very different experince then listening to their studio recordings. The studio recordings sound exactly like what they trying to achieve- the best possible copy of the orginal players of that era. I don't know why, but I felt not inspired to listen to it like I would to original artists. It's like the playing is great but... it's not updated for 2024, does it make sense? Like I wish there was some twist to it, that made it distinct for our times, but it's not there.

Anyway, just some points.

[Christian Miller]

I've never, ever been 'negative for kicks' as you put it. I said that I'd seen/heard better because it's true, I have. Don't ask me where, though, I can't remember.

Nevertheless, I had a very good look. I found Joscho Stephan doing 'It Don't Mean A Thing' which was impressive but didn't post it because the way he does it isn't strictly that old swing style so I didn't post it. But you can google it if you want.

Yeah the manouche jazz stuff is a bit of a different thing. I thought you’d mention one of those players. They are invariably very impressive, technically beast players, but that’s not the only thing I listen for. American style swing guitar is a different style really.

And while Joscho is quite pure manouche jazz, the style has actually evolved quite a bit since django. In fact the very period players like Duved Dunaevsky sort of stand out.

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[Christian Miller]

Fwiw, the word great has two senses. The Beatles were great but Beethoven was great.

Well Bernstein did place the Beatles on a par with Schubert? And as I prefer Schubert to Beethoven…. Haha.

Seriously … comparing collaborative writers of popular songs to a composers of long form compositions on paper is a bit apples and oranges. The Beatles are certainly as revolutionary and influential in their own field as Beethoven was in his. Not a bad comparison. Bird and Coltrane would share that spiritual affinity while at the same time doing something that resists direct comparison.

I mean Beethoven can be so WIERD and UGLY. Esp. the late stuff. I love it.

I don’t think most people reading the OP title or hearing someone say ‘that guy’s great!’ necessarily places that comment in the context of, say, the Western Canon.

If someone says I played great on a gig, I don’t instantly assume this places me on a par with Bach (or Bird or whoever).

I think most people get this context.

Obviously with players aiming to recreate past styles there’s always the question of them living in the shadow of those great musicians who created the style. Someone who writes a symphony convincingly in Beethoven’s style is not as great as Beethoven. But it is amazing and impressive.

I like to see it as a different path, a classical period performance approach to jazz, if you like.

It’s not my own path but I do admire those who do it well. We don’t all have to be restless progressives, and we can find individuality and creativity in past styles.


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[digger]

Yeah the manouche jazz stuff is a bit of a different thing. I thought you’d mention one of those players. They invariably technically beast players, but that’s not the only thing I listen for.

And while Joscho is quite pure manouche jazz, the style has actually evolved quite a bit since django. In fact the very period players like Duved Dunaevsky sort of stand out.

I recall an excellent interview with Dave Kelbie talking about his time playing with Fapy Lafertin on the 94/96 recordings and how they were playing these old swing tempos and then Stochelo, and others, arrived on the scene and Fapy (who could play fast, but usually chose other priorities) said words to the effect "Well that's that then. It's all going to change now." And it did. Sadly - much as I love Stochelo - because now that technical beast thing seems to be expected.

Derek

[Christian Miller]

I recall an excellent interview with Dave Kelbie talking about his time playing with Fapy Lafertin on the 94/96 recordings and how they were playing these old swing tempos and then Stochelo, and others, arrived on the scene and Fapy (who could play fast, but usually chose other priorities) said words to the effect "Well that's that then. It's all going to change now." And it did. Sadly - much as I love Stochelo - because now that technical beast thing seems to be expected.

Derek

Yeah it’s like an acoustic version of shred. Bluegrass is similar.

For the wider point, Dave Kelbie’s a case in point. I’ve never actually met or played him but know many musicians who work with him.

There’s a violinist called Matt Holborn for instance who plays with Kouresh Kanani and Harry Diplock - check them out if you haven’t - and would choose Dave to play on another project exactly because he just does the Danny Barker rhythm thing. Having three raging virtuosi on a gig is a lot of notes.

And of course Dave has played with Angelo deBarre, Evan Christopher and all the rest of them because he is a rhythm specialist and happy to fix up the gigs and be the supporting guy, not the star. It’s a good way to be.

And he is really good at what he does, needless to say.

I mean I went to a Birelli gig and of course the man is an outrageous musician on every level, but after the millionth sweep picked note I was really digging Hono. That guy’s amazing.


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[garybaldy]

Great? I have to say I've seen better.

Silly comment. Those guys are still great. I don't know why I or anyone else has bothered to respond to your comment. I certainly won't be responding to any more of yours. You seem to thrive on it.

[ragman1]

Please don't post Gypsy jazz players as an example of something 'greater', it's NOT the same thing.

I was asked to post it by somebody. My original comment was here (and there are the two following posts):

Great swing style players