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[Interesting perspective. Not posting this because I agree---or disagree---but because it may prompt a worthwhile discussion.]
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10-23-2024 05:10 PM
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They don't at all lol. Anyone who thinks that doesn't listen to current players.
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Yeah exactly.
Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Since I think the premise of the video is false, I'm not likely to watch it.
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That was my thought... does modern jazz all sound the same? I don't think that's true at all. Originally Posted by James W
He's not listening to the right stuff, or more accurately, he's not doing the work of listening to a lot of stuff to find the good stuff.
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"Something between Metheny, Scofield, and Holdsworth."
That's like saying this restaurant will be something between Per Se, Olive Garden, and the M&M store.
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The top guys are always distinguishable. The rest are usually pretty bland IMO thanks to university programs teaching the same shit and jazz heads mostly not knowing how to play blues anymore because they think it's below them. Once something is institutionalized it's usually a downhill run. Jazz went from being street music to music of the elites in society. Therefore rap is the new jazz. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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I’m pretty sure we had a big thread on this video a year ago.
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I was at a jazz jam and the house guitarist pulled out iReal to play a blues in Bb. It was strange to see. Originally Posted by DawgBone
The top guys are always distinguishable. The rest are usually pretty bland IMO thanks to university programs teaching the same shit and jazz heads mostly not knowing how to play blues anymore because they think it's below them. Once something is institutionalized it's usually a downhill run. Jazz went from being street music to music of the elites in society. Therefore rap is the new jazz.
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Dont disagree about rap being the new jazz. Don’t really agree necessarily either but it’s not the wildest thing to say. I can also think of a lot of “jazz” musicians who wouldn’t mind you saying that. Originally Posted by DawgBone
The top guys are always distinguishable. The rest are usually pretty bland IMO thanks to university programs teaching the same shit and jazz heads mostly not knowing how to play blues anymore because they think it's below them. Once something is institutionalized it's usually a downhill run. Jazz went from being street music to music of the elites in society. Therefore rap is the new jazz.
As for the thing about the top guys … that’s been true forever all time. The stuff that stinks has just been lost to time. For every Beatles there were a thousand bands doing the bowl cuts and trying to get on local access tv. We just don’t remember them anymore.
With the recent musicians, there just hasn’t been enough time for them to be forgotten.
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ooooooooooof Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Man that's pathetic. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I was at a jam before I left for Florida and one guitarist kept asking me "what chords, what chords" when I told him "slow blues in A". I should've told him to get ireal but I doubt it would've helped him. He asked me what I thought afterwards and I asked him if he wanted the truth. He said yeah so I told him that he was absolutely terrible, lol..
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To reply to this seriously. :P
Are you talking about competent players who sound bad because of their style? Who are you talking about and how do you establish that it's being modern that makes them sound bad? Mediocre players always sound mediocre regardless of what time period it is. That's kind of a self evident notion. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Like there wasn't music education back in the day. Charlie Parker advocated education in an audio interview.IMO thanks to university programs teaching the same shit
Gotta know the bluez.and jazz heads mostly not knowing how to play blues anymore because they think it's below them.
It wasn't institutions' fault that jazz was constrained to that, it was that popular music devolved and jazz is no longer popular music, it's art music.Once something is institutionalized it's usually a downhill run. Jazz went from being street music to music of the elites in society.
Rapping doesn't utilize melody. It's skipping around on 2 or 3 notes, so it is by definition not jazz.Therefore rap is the new jazz.
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Jazz diverged from popular music around World War II. That's kind of where the distinction between swing/dance bands and jazz bands started to become more noticeable. And of course the beboppers. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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I'm talking about your average local gig around here: guys doing boring, played out standards for swells who want background noise cause those are the gigs that pay. Then we have the young UT and TSU bucks playing what I call go nowhere funk music that somehow qualifies as jazz to them but is really just jam music or something. Then we have the cocktail mediocre vocalist in nice dress crooning into a mic to boring standards. No attempt at spicing up old standards or doing something classic with a new twist. It's like a parody or overly cliched or something, as could be said for most blues. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Jazz education became a thing as jazz was on the way out in popularity. It's no longer street music and it lost the blues because young dudes mostly don't respect blues and most of the educators can't play it well either cause they are post-boomer gen. Maybe in New Orleans it still is a street music I suppose but that's an exception. Jazz is no longer popular because you can't dance to most of it. It became musician's music, not anything most people want to listen to. Most people aren't adept listeners so overly complex or heavy improvisation probably won't keep listeners or sell drinks.
I don't think rap is the new jazz but it has definitely replaced it as THE street music.
Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I see locally and there are good jazz programs here. Maybe I need to get out more but I don't know anyone who is die hard jazz only. They play what pays and that means rock, country, or faking their way through a night of blues, lol.
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I completely agree here lol. That's just cuz they're dumb and have no taste or sense. Different than the top players sounding all the same. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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If he's claiming that about top players he's just click baiting for views. My rhythm man turned me on to Kreisberg the other day. Hardly bland or a sound alike. I was actually pretty impressed with his work because I value composition above chops for the most part and he can pretty much deliver on both counts. So big win IMO. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Or with Kreisberg, everyone sounds the same ... because there's like a decade worth of hot shot college kids who just wanted to sound like Kreisberg. Lots of Rosenwinkel clones in the early aughts too. Originally Posted by DawgBone
And that's certainly part of it. When you look at the top guys, they all sound cool and interesting compared to each other or what everyone else was doing when they came around, but then everyone wants to be them and starts copying them. So ten years down the line you get a bunch of people claiming that Kreisberg isn't interesting but it's just because he was so interesting in 2008 that we're now inundated with little Kreisberg clones.
And of course amongst the top guys, there will be similarities too ... some meaningful, some superficial ... time and place, maybe common teachers in the past. That sort of thing.
(and of course, Kreisberg and some of these other frequently cloned guys are the real ones, so they do stay interesting and fresh. But superficially, you could see how someone showing up in New York might jump to the wrong conclusion before they knew their a** from their elbow.)
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If I could find a Kreisberg clone around here I would probably pay a cover to see them but yeah I can def see your point. All the jazz guys I know mostly go for the funk-jam stuff or restaurant dinner gigs for the cash. There are some great players among them but the funk jam music has no direction and is pretty bland by definition. You don't need to know jazz to play it. It's like something you'd fool with in an after hours jam or a rehearsal space. That doesn't inspire me. I'm a composition over chops guy and in my mind it's much harder to cop a player's compositional thought process than it is his chops. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I think a lot of guys see someone like that as a way up the ladder and so kind of mimic the approach cause it's what's popular at the time. If you can't provide a genre or some names of people you sound similar to it can be hard to get gigs. I learned that it's easier to say "blues" than "well I play sort of a mixture of blues, rock, soul and r n b and funk. No one knows what the hell you mean and they tune you out before you finish explaining it. In a way it's easier to pigeonhole yourself. "ONLY BLUES". People don't even know what the hell that means either. "Will you play TN whiskey?" LOL
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All the guy has to do is watch a few episodes of the daily live podcast from Smalls or Mezzrow in NYC. to see how different most are...
Doug
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Clearly a few people at this forum are over generalizing their personal experiences in their specific area to all personal experiences in all areas. Of course, I can't dispute their specific truths. I'm just glad they don't come close to what I have experienced here in Southern California (and it appears in NYC as well). Originally Posted by Doug B
Of course, So Cal and NYC are major metropolitan areas. Maybe that explains the difference experiences?
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What-ya mean they don't play jazz in Helena Montana? I thought all the cows loved it? (Or something...
Doug
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Yep. Was thinking exactly this. Originally Posted by Doug B
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I would dare to make the assumption there are more quality jazz gigs in those areas than around Austin TX. They are just larger areas for starters, and NYC is pretty much thought of as jazz central (and maybe New Orleans?) Gigs where the artistry isn't taking a back seat to rich pigs needing background noise to stuff their face to. For blues, there are still some quality gigs here though there are very very few true "blues" clubs left. Blues has a storied history in TX so there are more gigs open to that genre than there would be for a jazz combo. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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I was shocked that at a session recently that Theo Kollross, a very gifted young university-studied pianist who is technically great and has a great bluesy hard bop feeling (I saw him when he played with Ida Koch and Elias Prinz whom I mentioned elsewhere as a new upcoming jazz guitar talent to remember in a Wes Montgomery project) told me he did not know the old African American spiritual Go Down Moses and told me he did not know much music beyond jazz. But he does not even know one of Pops' greatest hits! Louis Armstrong is one of the founding fathers of Jazz! Holy Moses! This is what's wrong with jazz education. Many jazz musicians who can play Donna Lee as 7/8 at 3000 bpm also falter when Summertime is played in the tempo of the lullaby it was composed as or as an even slower 12/8 shuffle. Barry Harris playing Isn't She Lovely on the radio means that he must have listened to that guy on the label of his old schoolmate Berry Gordy. And his old buddy Pepper Adams describes in his memoirs how he talked to Bird about the modern classical composer Arthur Honegger. (Bird was also happy having found someone in the states who knew Honegger.) Being confined to the jazz bubble doesn't exactly stimulate creativity.
Last edited by Boss Man Zwiebelsohn; 10-24-2024 at 02:30 AM.
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