"Why do modern jazz musicians all sound the same?"

[ccroft]

I think if you don't like a certain type of music it will all sound the same to you, including the sub-genres of jazz. How do you hear any nuance if it bugs you?

[Litterick]

A lot of people come to this forum in search of a jazz tone, which they believe can be found in the right combination of guitar, strings and amplifier. This seems to be a desire to sound like others, rather than to have one's own sound.

I watched the video, and I would recommend it to those who have expressed strong opinions against it.

[Christian Miller]

OTOH, I think the elevation of originality in music is quite a new phenomenon and a basic cultural assumption which is open to question.


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[James W]

Some strange indiscriminate deleting of posts has happened on this thread for some reason...

[Christian Miller]

Good point. When it comes to jazz guitar and the 50s, Jim Hall and Howard Roberts are good examples. Their playing on their first albums sounded like the well-established players like Farlow and Raney etc. But later on, they developed their own unique approach.

Oh I don’t know, I think Jim sounds like himself.


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[pamosmusic]

Good point. When it comes to jazz guitar and the 50s, Jim Hall and Howard Roberts are good examples. Their playing on their first albums sounded like the well-established players like Farlow and Raney etc. But later on, they developed their own unique approach.

Oh man. Hard disagree on this one. Jim sounds like he was listening to a lot of Charlie Christian but even in 1957 there wasn’t anybody who sounded like he did.

[Christian Miller]

Speaking for myself - whenever I hear something really good my impulse is very often to try and rush out and work out what it is.

I wonder if this isn’t quite adolescent behaviour.

Certainly, I admire people who do their own thing. That seems to me to need an element of saying ‘no’ or at least letting things alone, accepting you can’t learn everything, and focussing on what feels right and directing energy towards that for as long as you need.

Another thing that I do very badly is accepting that what the world wants from me might not be the thing that really interests me. It might be things I don’t really value and yet others find interesting.

Obviously there’s no instruction book for being yourself.

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[jameslovestal]

Oh man. Hard disagree on this one. Jim sounds like he was listening to a lot of Charlie Christian but even in 1957 there wasn’t anybody who sounded like he did.

Don't you find Hall's tone here very 50s style here and a lot brighter and forward than the more neutral tone he developed later?

(I don't know if neutral is the right term. I mean that tone that sometimes sounded muted).

[pamosmusic]

Don't you find Hall's tone here very 50s style here and a lot brighter and forward than the more neutral tone he developed later?

(I don't know if neutral is the right term. I mean that tone that sometimes sounded muted).

Oh his tone? I don’t know. I guess.

But I’m a lot more interested in what he’s playing, which was kind of iconoclastic

[jameslovestal]

Oh his tone? I don’t know. I guess.

But I’m a lot more interested in what he’s playing, which was kind of iconoclastic

I'm also a lot more interested in what he's playing. The topic here was musicians that "sound the same". Of course, "sound" can have many different meanings\interpretations. I focused on a very limited one: tone.

[pamosmusic]

I'm also a lot more interested in what he's playing. The topic here was musicians that "sound the same". Of course, "sound" can have many different meanings\interpretations. I focused on a very limited one: tone.

Alright noted, I guess.

As we go further back though, there is naturally going to be a lot less variation in sound because there’s a a lot less variation in equipment.

Jims playing on that album is from outer space though.

[2bornot2bop]

But they don’t sound the same. Anyone who feels that can’t hear the differences.

[Christian Miller]

Jim isn’t really playing that much bop. Its much less vocab based, much less eighth notey. That kind of marks him out from the prevailing style.

In terms of sound it was flatwounds and Gibson amps and you had the choice between playing an L5 and an ES175 basically. Jimbo went for the clanky thunky goodness.


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[Irishmuso]

Yeah exactly.

Since I think the premise of the video is false, I'm not likely to watch it.

Absolutely right. The title of the video begs the question - in the proper meaning of the term i.e. to assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.

I tend to visualise the creators of this sort of 'stuff' as sitting at home splitting their sides laughing at how annoyed they can make some people.

This particular guy seems to be a fan of English prog-jazz-rock from the Canterbury scene. If ever everything all sounded the same, it was the Canterbury prog-jazz-rock bands, mainly because they all played in each other's bands. (Some of it, I like but English and third level and middle class and priviliged and jazz? A tricky blend.)

[MarkRhodes]

All of modern jazz guitar is footnotes to Django, Charlie, and Wes.

[Litterick]

The title of the video begs the question - in the proper meaning of the term i.e. To assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.

I tend to visualise the creators of this sort of 'stuff' as sitting at home splitting their sides laughing at how annoyed they can make some people.

This particular guy seems to be a fan of english prog-jazz-rock from the canterbury scene. If ever everything all sounded the same, it was the canterbury prog-jazz-rock bands, mainly because they all played in each other's bands. (some of it, i like but english and third level and middle class and priviliged and jazz? A tricky blend.)

No, he makes an observation and then attempts to explain it. Had you watched the video, you might know that. But instead you accuse him of insincerity. Then you dismiss a genre of music he likes. Then you admit to liking some of it, but voice your prejudices against the people who made it (which is called 'saying the quiet part out loud'), as if the national and class backgrounds of musicians determined the quality of their music. This is all very peculiar, and not at all pleasant.

Incidentally, John Etheridge of Soft Machine owns Louis Stewart's Gibson Super 400.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

No, he makes an observation and then attempts to explain it. Had you watched the video, you might know that. But instead you accuse him of insincerity. Then you dismiss a genre of music he likes. Then you admit to liking some of it, but voice your prejudices against the people who made it (which is called 'saying the quiet part out loud'), as if the national and class backgrounds of musicians determined the quality of their music. This is all very peculiar, and not at all pleasant.

Incidentally, John Etheridge of Soft Machine owns Louis Stewart's Gibson Super 400.

That's the pre-listening canceling discussion culture of "post-modern flatland" (Ken Wilber).

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

^^^
Probably it is already post-post-modern flatland. The end of history. Ignorance is strength.

[Irishmuso]

No, he makes an observation and then attempts to explain it. Had you watched the video, you might know that. But instead you accuse him of insincerity. Then you dismiss a genre of music he likes. Then you admit to liking some of it, but voice your prejudices against the people who made it (which is called 'saying the quiet part out loud'), as if the national and class backgrounds of musicians determined the quality of their music. This is all very peculiar, and not at all pleasant.

Incidentally, John Etheridge of Soft Machine owns Louis Stewart's Gibson Super 400.

I was commenting on the title of the video not the content. What makes you think I didn't watch the video? I've watched a number of his videos: 10 Most under-rated guitarists; 10 most over-rated guitarists etc. He knows exactly what he’s doing.

As for voicing my prejudices against people, maybe – and I could be wrong – do you mean the word Irish in my profile name presupposes a particular opinion of English people? Hmmmm.

I’m afraid I don't see the relevance of John Etheridge of Soft Machine owning Louis Stewart's guitar. Care to explain?

[James W]

That's the pre-listening canceling discussion culture of "post-modern flatland" (Ken Wilber).

Again, it's not cancelling anyone. As though by not listening to something I am thereby cancelling it! Such absurdity.

I reject the premise of the video - it's like if there was a video called 'Why John Coltrane sucks'. I wouldn't watch it.

[pamosmusic]

Again, it's not cancelling anyone. As though by not listening to something I am thereby cancelling it! Such absurdity.

I reject the premise of the video - it's like if there was a video called 'Why John Coltrane sucks'. I wouldn't watch it.

Wait … James … I think Bop Head is cancelling YOU!

[Doctor Jeff]

Don't you find Hall's tone here very 50s style here and a lot brighter and forward than the more neutral tone he developed later?

(I don't know if neutral is the right term. I mean that tone that sometimes sounded muted).

Totally agree. He did “mute” his tone over time, which was very influential in its own way to cats like Metheny and Scofield.

I like all his work, but sometimes find the later stuff to be more “muddy” and almost ambient-sounding. Fine if I’m relaxing with a drink reading the internet, not so fine if I’m trying to pick out lines and all the notes of a chord.

[Doctor Jeff]

All of modern jazz guitar is footnotes to Django, Charlie, and Wes.

Uh I wouldn’t call them footnotes. Let’s say DR, CC and WM were the introductory chapters to an epic novel which is still be written.

The above is like saying Faulkner and Joyce Carol Oates and Thomas Pynchon were mere footnotes to John Bunyan and Daniel Defoe. And I realize you’re probably being facetious…

I’m sure Ben Monder listens and listened to all of them, but he really sounds NOTHING like them in his more exploratory recordings. I think he takes his inspiration more from cats like Coltrane and Ornette and Dolphy and Jarrett and Fripp and Holdsworth.

True most modern prominent jazz guitarists sound more like Ben Monder than CC.

[MarkRhodes]

The above is like saying Faulkner and Joyce Carol Oates and Thomas Pynchon were mere footnotes to John Bunyan and Daniel Defoe. And I realize you’re probably being facetious…

Yes, facetious. Whitehead's quote was running through my mind. ("The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.")

[Stevebol]

All of modern jazz guitar is footnotes to Django, Charlie, and Wes.

I think George Benson deserves an honorable mention here but some would say Joe Pass.

I like the harmonic sensitivity of Barney Kessel.

Modern jazz musicians don't all sound the same to me. Not at all. There's a sameness to the captive audience.