Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery

[HiFi Mule2Ride]

Two jazz guitar giants playing one of a jazz giant’s most popular tunes. If you are a Davis,Montgomery,Green fan (which I am), it is hard to beat this. Both guitarists are in their prime.

I thought I would add a poll to see which take stands out more to you, the listener, and why. It’s not a competitive, “one is better than the other” type poll. Its just preference.

Wes Montgomery shares the top spot with Django Reinhardt as my two biggest jazz guitar influences. I have to say that Grant Green’s blues toned explorations satisfy both the jazz and “jam” band fan in me. I will have to give Mr.Green the nod here.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Wes sticks to Miles’ concept of the tune but with the Wes touch. GG turns it into a straight ahead swing tune, which isn’t a bad thing. But for me it lacks the special feel that makes the original so much more than just a vehicle for soloing. Green might just as well be blowing through blues changes, especially since he removed the classic two chord hook that follows each phrase of the melody and defines the feel of the tune.

I’m not saying I don’t like GG’s playing on it. But by choosing to leave out what I think is the soul of the composition, he made it just another tune.

[bluenote61]

Hard to choose one. Both versions are from outstanding players. However, I am voting for GG. It's a little more livelly to my ears, maybe due to the faster metrum. WM is playing very relaxed and more in the background than GG. More like Miles, as said by Nevershould..
But GG makes it more to his own version. Why not?

[AllanAllen]

Wes sticks to Miles’ concept of the tune but with the Wes touch. GG turns it into a straight ahead swing tune, which isn’t a bad thing. But for me it lacks the special feel that makes the original so much more than just a vehicle for soloing. Green might just as well be blowing through blues changes, especially since he removed the classic two chord hook that follows each phrase of the melody and defines the feel of the tune.

I’m not saying I don’t like GG’s playing on it. But by choosing to leave out what I think is the soul of the composition, he made it just another tune.

I heard exactly the opposite. The Wes track drops the motif and chord stabs immediately after the head.

I think the Wes version is helped by how short it is too.

Both are really great. I think I like the first part of GG solo best. Before it gets mercurial.

[Litterick]

Wes is to the point. Green goes on and on.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I heard exactly the opposite. The Wes track drops the motif and chord stabs immediately after the head.

But Green uses the “wrong” chords. Wes stays in the Miles modal mood, while Green just seems to standardize the tune.

[AllanAllen]

I hear them both holding on one key and going up a half step. Not sure what you’re talking about.

[2bornot2bop]

Wes! Wes! Wes!

[AllanAllen]

But Green uses the “wrong” chords. Wes stays in the Miles modal mood, while Green just seems to standardize the tune.

I hear it now. Duh. Yeah the Wes backing is better. You’re right on that.

[pamosmusic]

I hear them both holding on one key and going up a half step. Not sure what you’re talking about.

Im kind of with you. I hear maybe more of a Cannonball Modal thing … like more chromaticism and implied changes and stuff but the vibe is still So What.

[mr. beaumont]

Im probably the biggest GG fan on here, but Wes.

Grant changes the tune a little too much for me...it's almost a contrafact.

[ccroft]

I love Wes's phrasing and clarity. Miles-like space. I would've liked to hear him take another round and develop it further with the octaves and chords. Actually seems a bit odd he was so short. Less than a minute! Maybe something wasn't feeling right to him.

[pamosmusic]

I think one of my favorite things about Kind of Blue—or that band, rather—is how there are three totally different approaches to modal playing in the front line.

I kind of like hearing weird crap people do with it,

[L50EF15]

This is going to sound strange, but to me, some of what Wes plays here reminds me of Grant’s usual bag. Maybe it’s the tone?

Note: George Benson does this as a storming blues jam on the organ trio plus bass (Ron Carter) album, “Beyond The Blue Horizon”.

[L50EF15]

This is going to sound strange, but to me, some of what Wes plays here reminds me of Grant’s usual bag. Maybe it’s the tone?

Note: George Benson does this as a storming blues jam on the organ trio plus bass (Ron Carter) album, “Beyond The Blue Horizon”.

For comparison’s sake:

[AllanAllen]

Man I’m trying to hard. The first 16 bars of GG is all what I’d call D pentatonic stuff. He’s got the major 6 too.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I hear them both holding on one key and going up a half step. Not sure what you’re talking about.

First of all, Miles wrote and played it in D minor, but GG plays it in F major. Second, the two chords after each phrase in the A section of the head (on the 5th and 8th eighth beats of bars 1, 3, 5, and 7) are Em7(add 4) and Dm7(add 4). These go up to Fm7 (add 4) and Ebm7 (add 4) in the B section. This pairing adds tension-resolution. But GG plays an F major (add 6) for both chords, which has none of the musical drama of the original. Third, Miles wrote it to be played in D Dorian mode, but GG just blows through it as a straight ahead F swing tune (with only 2 chords). His solo gets outside from time to time, but he's simply not playing So What the way it was written - and it's not even kinda sorta blue when played that way. This is not innovation, reharmonization, or any other clever reinvention. Green simply turned a sophisticated tune into an ordinary one.

Reviewers felt the same way I do. Here's a quote from Analog Planet's review:

"The closer [it's the last track on the album] is an unusual take on Miles Davis's classic 'So What' that if you didn't read the title might have you thinking 'where have I heard that before?' without being able to correctly identify it. Green inverts the emphasis and you may at first think you're hearing a reprise of the ending of 'Freedom March'."

So GG plays it in a major key instead of a minor key, doesn't even touch on the Dorian mode around which Miles based the tune, lacks the two chord sequence that defines the head, and plays it too fast. Saying that Green inverts the emphasis is being very kind. Sure, his playing is fine - but he removed the soul and spirit of MIles' So What.

Benson's version on Beyond the Blue Horizon retains the basic chordal / modal structure and has the same general feel as the original. It's still So What, but it's beautifully interpreted within the context in which it was written. The faster tempo adds drama to this one, and the drama continues with the half time sections. For me, Benson's version is in the same groove as Miles', but Green missed that boat.

[charlieparker]

While I love Wes' tone the solo was too short. It didn't feel like a complete thought. I also thought Grant was playing some stuff pretty close to what Miles played in parts and I thought he used the melody nicely in his solo at times.

[JazzPadd]

I love both players, but ticked GG on this tune because he made it his own, less a kind of a cover, more like an impression.

To me that’s part of the jazz ethos (at least once it became improvisational music): appropriating vernacular musics of the day (pop songs, dance band tunes, musicals, etc.) and doing one’s own thing with it, disassembling and reassembling the pieces, re-harmonizing, re-grooving, and in the process developing a common tongue and an approach to musicking.

But I guess I can also understand why appropriating (possibly even disrespecting) a fellow artists’ compositions is maybe stepping out of line?

Then again, Miles played Well You Needn’t “wrong,” so maybe it’s poetic justice.

Or just a matter of taste?

[djg]

First of all, Miles wrote and played it in D minor, but GG plays it in F major. Second, the two chords after each phrase in the A section of the head (on the 5th and 8th eighth beats of bars 1, 3, 5, and 7) are Em7(add 4) and Dm7(add 4). These go up to Fm7 (add 4) and Ebm7 (add 4) in the B section. This pairing adds tension-resolution. But GG plays an F major (add 6) for both chords, which has none of the musical drama of the original. Third, Miles wrote it to be played in D Dorian mode, but GG just blows through it as a straight ahead F swing tune (with only 2 chords). His solo gets outside from time to time, but he's simply not playing So What the way it was written - and it's not even kinda sorta blue when played that way. This is not innovation, reharmonization, or any other clever reinvention. Green simply turned a sophisticated tune into an ordinary one.

Reviewers felt the same way I do. Here's a quote from Analog Planet's review:

"The closer [it's the last track on the album] is an unusual take on Miles Davis's classic 'So What' that if you didn't read the title might have you thinking 'where have I heard that before?' without being able to correctly identify it. Green inverts the emphasis and you may at first think you're hearing a reprise of the ending of 'Freedom March'."

So GG plays it in a major key instead of a minor key, doesn't even touch on the Dorian mode around which Miles based the tune, lacks the two chord sequence that defines the head, and plays it too fast. Saying that Green inverts the emphasis is being very kind. Sure, his playing is fine - but he removed the soul and spirit of MIles' So What.

Benson's version on Beyond the Blue Horizon retains the basic chordal / modal structure and has the same general feel as the original. It's still So What, but it's beautifully interpreted within the context in which it was written. The faster tempo adds drama to this one, and the drama continues with the half time sections. For me, Benson's version is in the same groove as Miles', but Green missed that boat.

man, that is some weird analysis. let's see:

Grant actually plays the piece in Cm. but he seems to have forgotten how the head goes. so he plays the head in Fm over the Cm. the chord in the background is actually a sus chord. call it F7sus or Cm11/F if you want. so the only real difference is the botched theme and the lack of those two quartal chords in the theme. which i would hesitate to call a two chord sequence because the second one has no notes that are not present in the first one. which is the point of this sequence. so not a huge deal. for solos grant sticks to the C and Db dorian sounds like everybody else. he also plays pretty much the same material he does on his other versions on so what, namely two for one (with sonny clark) in the original key, where he even opens up with exactly the same phrase in Dm. there is another version with sonny red and another one with booker ervin iirc but i cant come up with the titles right now.

if you think grant plays it too fast you've never heard the 60s miles davis bands. or does miles play it wrong too?

[supersoul]

Grant actually plays the piece in Cm. but he seems to have forgotten how the head goes. so he plays the head in Fm over the Cm....

if you think grant plays it too fast you've never heard the 60s miles davis bands. or does miles play it wrong too?

Grant also does some weird transposition stuff on this version of Oleo.

Nearly every version of So What that Miles played after Kind of Blue is way faster than the original. Some of them are blindingly fast. Coltrane plays Impressions at a fast tempo too.

[djg]

Grant also does some weird transposition stuff on this version of Oleo.

Nearly every version of So What that Miles played after Kind of Blue is way faster than the original. Some of them are blindingly fast. Coltrane plays Impressions at a fast tempo too.

thats a complete deconstruction, starting in C and going down to Bb via ii-V-I in B. on so what he simply changes the melody. i'm unsure whether deliberate or by accident. my guess is accident. but he did do weird things like many non-academic players used to do. this kind of jazz is folk music. people dont understand that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

While I love Wes' tone the solo was too short. It didn't feel like a complete thought. I also thought Grant was playing some stuff pretty close to what Miles played in parts and I thought he used the melody nicely in his solo at times.

Remember when that recording was made. The limitations of vinyl include tracks far shorter than we’re used to today. You can’t get more than about 30 minutes on one side of an LP because the grooves occupy space, so most had five or six tracks on a side running 6 minutes or less. Producers were reluctant to release albums with fewer than 5 tracks on a side because most buyers expected more songs for their $3.98 . Live recordings were the most common exceptions.

Thirteen of the 22 tracks on Back to Indiana Avenue are under 6 minutes and some are under 4. It’s mostly the live ones that run longer, and those were unreleased until this compilation was made.

[ragman1]

I'll tell you what it is. With Wes, he IS the music he plays. He's connected to it and the listener's connected to it too. With Grant Green there's a coldness, a distance. He's good, which we know, but there's not the same feeling. That's why the poll puts Wes ahead. People warm to him, can't help it.

[supersoul]

thats a complete deconstruction, starting in C and going down to Bb via ii-V-I in B. on so what he simply changes the melody. i'm unsure whether deliberate or by accident. my guess is accident. but he did do weird things like many non-academic players used to do. this kind of jazz is folk music. people dont understand that.

There's an alternate take from the same session where he plays the same transpositions.