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So when you say “F”, do you mean F major, F7, Fm, or F Dorian?
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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10-14-2024 06:27 PM
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if you play "so what" in Fm, the correct melody is F C D Eb F G Eb F. 1 5 6 b7 8 9 b7 8 in Fm . that is what grant plays (replacing the first note F with a G, no big deal). Originally Posted by charlieparker
BUT: he plays it over Cminor, so it becomes the slightly more trivial G C D Eb F G Eb F. namely 5 1 2 b3 4 5 b3 4 in Cm.
in other words: the so what trick is to play minor from the 5th. F C D Eb F G Eb F over Fm.
the more trivial (dare i say vanilla) version is to use the same line as minor from the 1. F (or G) C D Eb F G Eb F over Cm.
there is indeed a family of three: Fm Gm Cm. for example you can play Gm and Cm pent over Fm. or Bb triad and Eb triad. Wes montgomery is all over this concept. 4 on 6 is full of this. i think garrison fewell wrote books about it.
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beato has that one covered. sheer comedy. he probably swears to this day that the first chord of ipanema is Ab6. take that, barry harris. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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On the real, I have a student who just started with me. Older guy, and a pretty good player.
But he was talking about soloing over Franklins Tower (A G D G vamp) and he said “well I just play some stuff in A” and I said … “wait a second.” And he said “well, A Mixolydian.”
So I was like okay …
There are two issues here. The first is that I think that’s a rather cumbersome way of thinking about things, but he disagrees and I don’t harp on it to the extent he’s able to keep his stuff straight. So that’s a difference of opinion and I don’t particularly care.
The second is that the tune is not in “A.” Not in some abstract theoretical sense, but in the sense that when he tells the other guitar player to take a ride and tells him it’s in A, the other guitar player is going to play things that sound bad and the experience will be a bummer. He could do that ten times and get the same result every time. No musician is going to follow up “it’s in A” with … “you mean A locrian? Or A Phrygian? What?”
The communication is important because playing with people is the whole point.
Walk into a room and say “So What in Cm” and you’re going to get something like what Grant played. Walk into a room and say “So What in F” and they’re going to be like … “Fm? or like … huh?”
A failure to communicate what you mean is the only meaningful way a theoretical term can be incorrect.
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Best thing out of the two clips to my ears, btw, is the piano solo on Wes' recording (don't know who it is); sounds like an upright. Wes is always so slick though his solo is too short, the comping maybe somewhat static.
On second hearing, regardless of what Kenny Drew is overlaying in the Grant version, the bass and guitar are, again, clearly talking C (and Dd) Dorian.
OP, if you're just starting out with the theory stuff (not that I know or use it much personally), how about Autumn Leaves instead?
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Honestly, I think what Grant did hear was pretty cool. He realized by ear or instinct or however that the F So What melody actually sits nicely over Cm, kind of like a chord substitution but with a melody. Originally Posted by djg
It does give it a different flavor, more of a straight C minor sound to my ears.
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Indeed, C Dorian does have two flats. However, "straight up C minor" (which some have claimed is what GG is playing in) has three flats. And some have said that GG is playing the melody "up a 4th" which might put him in G minor, if that is up a fourth from the original recording, or F minor, if it's up a 4th from the C minor or C Dorian or C whatever? There have been so many confusing claims made on all sides that none of it makes a lick of sense anymore, no pun intended. Originally Posted by djg
In any event, I very much preferred the Wes Montgomery version of these two recordings. I don't generally find that I like Grant Green's playing all that much, for some reason, and this thread has done nothing to make me like his playing more.
And here's George, taking off on it live:
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Ok, lots to unpack here in this kind of blue dress conundrum:
Firstly, the opening piano chord is C-Eb in the left hand and A-D-F in the right hand directly above that. I suggest anyone who has a piano/keyboard handy to try it out. So, a C-6/9 with no 5th and an added 11th (!). As a few people have pointed out, that's x6776x but with a C in the bass. I hear it as a F13 and there's a reason for this that I'll get to in a moment.
djg initially considered the opening riff played by Grant Green and Ben Tucker as an Fm riff and I get that but there's no m3 Ab present, adding to the ambiguity. I hear it as a C minor line resolving to F dominant. The notes C, Eb and G fall on strong beats and resolve in the following bar to F on primary beat 1 - hence me hearing the piano chord as F13 rather than a Cm-type chord. There's also no Bb in the chord as it would clash.
Barry Harris (who was no fan of modal music or its terminology) would think of this melodic figure as 'V minor'. In modal terms, it's based around an upper structure of F7 from the 5th degree - (F), (A), C, Eb, G. Similarly, the line played by Paul Chambers in the intro to the original version by Miles Davis suggests an Am figure resolving into Dm. His line opens with a 5th from the tonic (D-A) rather than the 4th employed by Grant Green (G-C or E-A when transposed) but the outlining of strong beats of the V resolving to I remains.
Regarding nevershouldhavesoldit's comment that Grant Green had no knowledge of theory and wouldn't have been aware of all this, I'd like to add a couple of points: firstly, by the time this album was recorded in 1961, modal experiments by Miles and Coltrane were becoming common currency so it was a prevailing 'sound'. Furthermore, we don't know if Grant was responsible for the arrangement. Certainly Kenny Drew, pianist on the session who studied classical piano from his childhood years and attended the Manhattan High School of Music and Art would have been more than capable of setting this up for the recording.
By the way, I'm only dealing with the head here. The soloing is more straight up Cm with C roots in the bass and Drew's same chords now taking on a Cm quality.
In my mind, this arrangement was no accident and while it may not exhibit quite the level of melodic remodelling found in Coltrane's Impressions contrafact, Grant Green's group left us a pretty cool take on the classic recording.
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Well I’ll be goddam if I didn’t have that voicing right after all. Originally Posted by PMB
Firstly, the opening piano chord is C-Eb in the left hand and A-D-F in the right hand directly above that. I suggest anyone who has a piano/keyboard handy to try it out. So, a C-6/9 with no 5th and an added 11th (!). As a few people have pointed out, that's x6776x but with a C in the bass. I hear it as a F13 and there's a reason for this that I'll get to in a moment.
Seems reasonableBarry Harris (who was no fan of modal music or its terminology) would think of this melodic figure as 'V minor'. In modal terms, it's based around an upper structure of F7 from the 5th degree - (F), (A), C, Eb, G. Similarly, the line played by Paul Chambers in the intro to the original version by Miles Davis suggests an Am figure resolving into Dm. His line opens with a 5th from the tonic (D-A) rather than the 4th employed by Grant Green (G-C or E-A when transposed) but the outlining of strong beats of the V resolving to I remains.
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I vote PMB the winner.
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Cool, do I get a new guitar? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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No you just get that slightly sick feeling that comes with knowing you cared enough to actual comment on this dumpster fire. Originally Posted by PMB
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If you listen to Tucker's bassline, he implies i ii V quite a bit...Cm, Dm7b5, G7.
It's the head being played up a 4th that's screwing with people's ears, and that m6/9 chord without the expected movement.
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Why is he playing it in Db? Originally Posted by djg
I like F with vanilla chords.
Nine of them, not just five.
x 8 10 9 8 x FM9
x 8 9 9 8 x G6/F
x 8 8 7 6 x Bb/F
x 7 8 6 x x Edim
x 5 5 5 x x F6sus2
x 6 6 6 x x F#6sus2
x 9 8 6 6 x F#M7
7 x 7 8 9 x B13
x 12 11 9 9 x AM7
10 x 10 11 12 x D13
x 13 12 10 10 x BbM7
11 x 11 12 13 x Eb13
x 12 12 12 13 x Aquartal
x 11 12 10 12 x Abdim
x 10 10 10 11 x Gquartal
x 7 8 9 9 x Caug7
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OP played Ipanema in Db.
Astrud sang it in Db.
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Well as someone who rejects the concept of roots as Germanic theoretical chicanery of the highest order I'm OK with Ab6/9.
Checkmate, Rameau-ite. Rare Beato W!
;-)
TBF, would Db6/9/Ab have been any clearer for a guitarist wanting to learn the song (as opposed to soloing on the changes.)
I dunno. Naming that first chord which is inverted on the original recording is a tricky one. What's the emphasis of the lesson?
Also playing on Ab over the Db is probably what I'd do as a soloist. Brings out the melody notes.
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Awesome. Guess I missed the Eb and A. Didn't quite have this sound categorized in my mind's ear. Makes more sense this way. Cheers.
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Superiority complex, this way you can learn the song, then put people down for using the realbook instead of their ear and also not be able to play it in F at the session. It's a win win win. The last win is for the other people, who don't have to deal with the big headed newcomer. Originally Posted by pauln
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Maybe I should teach people The Real Way to play the intro to Back in Black, but in like … Ab or something? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Meaning he's doing this for people who will listen to recording and never open a fake book or play the tune with other jazz musicians as long as they live. So it'd be weird to do it in a key other than the recording they'll get with their first google search.
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Ipanema is a singer's tune y'all, you gotta be ready to play that shit in F# or D and a half or just shy of B or whatever the singer wants.
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Also (and again) this version is in Db:
I’d play it standing on my head if it meant I got to play along with this groove.
Unreal, Ed Thingpen and Ray Brown on this tune.
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I mean...it sounds REALLY GOOD in Db.
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I responded to GG more than I usually do, but for me Wes' musicality is unsurpassed. Would like to hear him stretch out to include his usual octaves and block chord solos.
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