The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: Heads or Tails

Voters
31. You may not vote on this poll
  • Wes Montgomery

    15 48.39%
  • Grant Green

    10 32.26%
  • Both/Too Close to Call

    6 19.35%
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Posts 76 to 100 of 124
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Grant’s version is a bit weird though, I can see where the confusion could come from. He is definitely playing the actual theme incorrectly for Cm, he has transposed it as if it’s in Fm. Also Kenny Drew is playing a chord voicing which does not strongly outline Cm to my ear. It makes it sound more like F13. But it’s not F major, I agree.

    If Kenny Drew had played quartal chords like the original, it would probably have made the minor key clearer.

    However the solos line up ok with Cm and Dbm.
    Yeah it’s very Cm6/9.

    but decidedly not accidentally the relative major of the original Dm

    My suspicion earlier was that nervershouldhavesoldit was trying to say it vibes F7 rather than Cm, and that he misspoke. I’m not sure why “accidental one flat Fmaj relative major of the original key” is where we landed though.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Yeah it’s very Cm6/9. but decidedly not accidentally the relative major of the original Dm. My suspicion earlier was that nervershouldhavesoldit was trying to say it vibes F7 rather than Cm, and that he misspoke. I’m not sure why “accidental one flat Fmaj relative major of the original key” is where we landed though.
    You are correct - it definitely vibes (whatever that means) F7. That's because he plays the head in F major - the answering chords to the head's repeated phrase are F major / F# major chords. He was a simple player, and I have no doubt that he intended it to sound just like it does. Green was not an educated musician. He knew nothing of theory and couldn't have discussed any of this if he wanted to (which I'm sure he didn't). Throughout his career, he simplified standard lines, chords, changes, and rhythmic patterns - and I think it's because he simply didn't know or care about the minutiae under the microscope in this thread. My main point was / is simply that the head is played in F major. How he played his solos is not relevant to this question.

    Yes, a large part of his soloing lines up with Cm and Dbm, just as Wes wove many solos around 7ths, 9ths, and 11ths (both flatted and natural) while playing over the 1. Transcribe those WM solos and they "line up" with Vm too. But GG wasn't "playing" a Dorian mode, he was playing what he heard and felt and it happened to fall into this pattern. He had no idea what a Dorian mode was - he was almost certainly just playing a synthesis of what he'd heard Miles play and what he felt. And I have no doubt that the head felt right to him with F as the tonal center.

    Criticisms of my knowledge base apart, simply transcribing 14 bars of a solo with no key signature and all sharps & flats entered as accidentals is a nice exercise, but it's irrelevant to the question of where he played the head. As for my criticisms of your choice of notation, the key signature most would use for music written in C Dorian is 2 flats, to minimize the number of accidentals and to convey more clearly to the player that the tonal center is C and the mode is Dorian. But there are many alternatives for choosing a key signature for modal music. Some would, as you did, leave no key signature and indicate every accidental. Far more would choose the signature that minimizes the number of accidentals needed. This is very common in non-Western music. You might want to study up on writing modal music to better understand what I said.

    I think this thread is a perfect example of overanalysis. Green's playing was like his knowledge of music. It was not complex or theoretically sophisticated. Forcing his playing into theoretical constructs of which he was entirely unaware seems to me to be pushing round pegs into square holes - they'll go in if forced, but imperfectly. I've listened to a lot of GG over 60 years. I thought little of his playing when he first hit the scene, largely because I was disdainful of the simplicity and I heard the way he deviated from Wes, Tal, Barney, Howard, et al as compromise because he wasn't "good enough" to play the way they did. I came back to him in recent years and reexamined how I felt. I came to realize that he was playing what he heard and felt, and it was pure in its own way.

    To me, trying to cram his concepts into standard theory is wrong. He was a different kind of player whose simplicity of thought and perception shaped his playing. I certainly understand him a lot better now than I did in the '60s, and I think I'm now able to hear and understand what he played the way he did. I think he played the head in F major and pushed his sidemen to go along (which they did to varying degrees, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread). Everyone's entitled to an opinion and that's mine.

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    You are correct - it definitely vibes (whatever that means) F7. That's because he plays the head in F major - the answering chords to the head's repeated phrase are F major / F# major chords. He was a simple player, and I have no doubt that he intended it to sound just like it does. Green was not an educated musician. He knew nothing of theory and couldn't have discussed any of this if he wanted to (which I'm sure he didn't). Throughout his career, he simplified standard lines, chords, changes, and rhythmic patterns - and I think it's because he simply didn't know or care about the minutiae under the microscope in this thread. My main point was / is simply that the head is played in F major. How he played his solos is not relevant to this question.
    Don’t think anyone ever disagreed that he was playing the head up a fourth. Doesn’t make it F major. Next time you find a Cm in your F major scale, call me.

    Criticisms of my knowledge base apart, simply transcribing 14 bars of a solo with no key signature and all sharps & flats entered as accidentals is a nice exercise, but it's irrelevant to the question of where he played the head. As for my criticisms of your choice of notation, the key signature most would use for music written in C Dorian is 2 flats, to minimize the number of accidentals and to convey more clearly to the player that the tonal center is C and the mode is Dorian. But there are many alternatives for choosing a key signature for modal music. Some would, as you did, leave no key signature and indicate every accidental. Far more would choose the signature that minimizes the number of accidentals needed. This is very common in non-Western music. You might want to study up on writing modal music to better understand what I said.
    But also remember you said this:

    The head and first solo choruses sure sound like F major to me.
    So I was literally transcribing the measures you were referring to. They are not F major.

    Also where you said this:

    I have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.
    and

    Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out.
    So with all due respect, you either expressed yourself very very poorly earlier, or you were wrong.

    I think this thread is a perfect example of overanalysis. Green's playing was like his knowledge of music. It was not complex or theoretically sophisticated. Forcing his playing into theoretical constructs of which he was entirely unaware seems to me to be pushing round pegs into square holes - they'll go in if forced, but imperfectly. I've listened to a lot of GG over 60 years. I thought little of his playing when he first hit the scene, largely because I was disdainful of the simplicity and I heard the way he deviated from Wes, Tal, Barney, Howard, et al as compromise because he wasn't "good enough" to play the way they did. I came back to him in recent years and reexamined how I felt. I came to realize that he was playing what he heard and felt, and it was pure in its own way.
    Yeah I didn’t over analyze it. I just listened to it and transcribed the notes he plays, so that’s why I’ve been saying his vocabulary looks more like he’s playing tonic minor stuff than someone who’s playing modal stuff the way Coltrane would’ve thought about it. But it’s not F major. I would be inclined to think “over analysis” was something more like speculating about his state of mind and popping off with this sort of thing:

    I think he’s playing it in F major, which is the relative major of Dm, which is the original key. I assume Green got to F major by confusing, mistaking, or cleverly / innocently substituting relative major for minor in the same key signature (1 flat).
    and for what it’s worth …

    To me, trying to cram his concepts into standard theory is wrong. He was a different kind of player whose simplicity of thought and perception shaped his playing. I certainly understand him a lot better now than I did in the '60s, and I think I'm now able to hear and understand what he played the way he did. I think he played the head in F major and pushed his sidemen to go along (which they did to varying degrees, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread). Everyone's entitled to an opinion and that's mine
    I don’t think you mean F major one flat, here. I think you mean F7, two flats. Which is just a difference in center of gravity, and totally subjective and not the result of Grant being a goober.
    Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 10:40 AM.

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    I'm with NeverShould on this one. The piano is playing what definitely sound like F6/C and F#6/C# chords all through the head at the beginning. Yes, the guitar and bass are playing Cm runs, but the piano is pretty well outlining F major and F#major chords. I guess maybe it comes down to which instrument you hear as defining the chord center. Since only the piano is playing chords, that's what influences me.

    Yes, I'm aware that Dm7 has the same notes, but what is Dm doing with Cm runs? Whatever happened to you can play any note over any chord?

    Here is just the piano. It definitely is starting with an F6 (spelled out middle C - A - C - D - F):


  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    Clearly it's a C-6/9add11 without the third. (add sarcasm)

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    I'm with NeverShould on this one. The piano is obviously playing F6/C and F#6/C# chords all through the head at the beginning. Yes, the guitar and bass are playing Cm runs, but the piano is pretty well outlining F major and F#major chords.

    Yes, I'm aware that Dm7 has the same notes, but what is Dm doing with Cm runs? Whatever happened to you can play any note over any chord?

    Here is just the piano. It definitely is starting with an F6 (spelled out middle C - A - C - D - F):

    C Dorian mode

    C Eb G Bb D F A C

    To consider a modal tune to be a one chord tune is a mistake.

    Every sequence of notes in the mode is available. Often sorted into chord pairs … one of the most common ways to outline a modal sound is by using the two major triads a whole step apart in the major scale (that’s Eb and F in a mode with two flats). But how does one distinguish Eb and F used to outline a C dorian mode as opposed to Eb Lydian or whatever?

    The bass and the improviser. So when you say the bass and soloist are playing very Cm stuff, you’re answering the question.

    In this tune, the pianist first leans more heavily on the F sound than the Eb sound which makes it more ambiguous and less “brooding minor.” But the reason you’d choose a Dorian mode over a straight up minor is that ambiguity.

    It is objectively and decidedly not in F major, one flat, relative major of D minor. That is not theoretical nit-picking or ivory tower bullsh**. It is a literal fact of the pitches the musicians play in the recording. There is no E natural anywhere. E flats galore.

    I mentioned earlier that a more useful way of thinking about this is not about how F major sounds different than C minor, or about F7 and Cm, but about the way that a Dorian modal vamp like Oye Como Va (ii minor to V major of the parent scale, the two chords in question here) sounds very different than a Dorian modal vamp like So What. These sounds contain multitudes. And that ambiguity is aided by the way Grant is playing … which is more like what you’d expect in a tonic minor vamp like Softly than in a modal tune.

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    Sing C... it is home/tonic during the A sections. That's what I go on.

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    Man, finally after thirty nine years of playing music by ear, I just started the Mel Bay course to learn to read music a couple of months ago. I am learning from you all on this forum. This conversation has gotten way over my head. I gotta go with what Grant Green said on this one:


    Grant’s famous quote, “Jazz, R&B, soul, rocknroll — it’s all just the BLUES, man!”
    Attached Images Attached Images Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery-img_1174-jpeg 

  10. #84

    User Info Menu

    Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery-beatdeadhorse-gif

  11. #85

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery-beatdeadhorse-gif
    Just to make sure I’m keeping up, you’re the dude with the cane in this analogy, and the horse is Grant Greens artistic choices?

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Just to make sure I’m keeping up, you’re the dude with the cane in this analogy, and the horse is Grant Greens artistic choices?
    Sorry - that’s a

    Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery-img_1895-jpeg

  13. #87

    User Info Menu

    So let me throw my two cents:
    The head groove, bass line is in F dorian.
    The cord/stab could be named Cm11, with F on top.
    The solo is a Cm - Dbm dorian, more of C pentaton with all kind of passing tones, color tones.

  14. #88

    User Info Menu

    Is this thread STILL happening?

  15. #89

    User Info Menu

    Not really, no.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu


  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    Good lord never ask the internet about a mode.

    especially not guitar players on the internet.

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Guitar players might not know much, but we are very sure about it!

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    Im curious about the whole playing the head in F over a Cm backing.

    I've heard of people suggesting to play different pentatonic scales over a chord for different sounds.

    I'm of the opinion that this must have been an intentional choice by Grant, no, as it sounds good to my tin ears.

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    Okay for the love of all that is holy.

    He is not playing it in F. Please do not go trying to play your F major scale stuff over C minor. It will not work.

    Hes playing C D Eb F G over a C min. It will sound cool over an F minor too. Which is another way of saying that the original recording uses the same figure off the fifth of the underlying accompaniment. So G A Bb C and D over Cm in this case.

    But sweet Jesus there is no key of concert F major one flat anywhere near this recording.

  21. #95

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Okay for the love of all that is holy.

    He is not playing it in F. Please do not go trying to play your F major scale stuff over C minor. It will not work.

    Hes playing C D Eb F G over a C min. It will sound cool over an F minor too. Which is another way of saying that the original recording uses the same figure off the fifth of the underlying accompaniment. So G A Bb C and D over Cm in this case.

    But sweet Jesus there is no key of concert F major one flat anywhere near this recording.
    All good. It's C minor


    The accompaniment is pretty ambiguous but on a quick listen I think there's only C, D and F in the voicing. There's no A or Bb or Eb. Was getting a 7sus vibe initially but after playing it on the piano I think there's less going on than you/we think.

  22. #96

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Okay for the love of all that is holy.

    He is not playing it in F. Please do not go trying to play your F major scale stuff over C minor. It will not work.

    Hes playing C D Eb F G over a C min. It will sound cool over an F minor too. Which is another way of saying that the original recording uses the same figure off the fifth of the underlying accompaniment. So G A Bb C and D over Cm in this case.

    But sweet Jesus there is no key of concert F major one flat anywhere near this recording.
    I wasn't referring to F major but instead to the comment djg made about the melody being played in Fm by Grant.

  23. #97

    User Info Menu

    Stop it, don’t break Peter, the kids need their jazz lessons.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #98

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Stop it, don’t break Peter, the kids need their jazz lessons.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Man we’re way past that.

  25. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I wasn't referring to F major but instead to the comment djg made about the melody being played in Fm by Grant.
    Noted. Well … there was much talk of him playing it in F major, one flat, the relative major of Dm.

  26. #100

    User Info Menu

    Some kid is going to ask him about Ipanema in F and it’s all going to come out.