Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

here is the track minus guitar. i dare you to play Fmaj and Gbmaj over the thing. no, i double dare you.

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

[pamosmusic]

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

Dude this is like the twilight zone. The notes are

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

The chord is a what sounds like a Dm triad w F on top and an Eb at the bottom. Often used as an F13 or Cm6/9 voicing.

Again … how are we in one flat, the key of F major?

[AllanAllen]

Well, good news. I had the same pitches as Peter, but I was thinking the C was a b7th of D, not the root. So, my ear isn't as bad as I thought it was this morning.

[djg]

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

i have spelt it out for you in post 43. i have also spelt out the chord. peter has transcribed the first round. i have given you the main licks and shown how grant uses them over other minor chords.

[pamosmusic]

but the background stays on x5556x and does not move down. so it sounds like an F chord to you.

For what it’s worth, I think maybe x6776x?

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot. It just sounds a little bit spicier than the straight perfect quartal.

[djg]

For what it’s worth, I think maybe x6776x?

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot. It just sounds a little bit spicier than the straight perfect quartal.

it#s basically the white keys starting with D. Dm11. as i said the the dm to cm move is replaced by staying on dm11 (which is just the upper structure of cm anyway, think milestones, etc)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot

I applaud you for your honesty. With no disrespect, since you said it yourself, I think you've proved this here.

Yeah one of the reasons Grant is so great for transcribing is that he can teach you to hear in chunks. I haven't transcribed as much GG as you or Mr B probably, but quite a bit, and this is just a bunch of classic Grant stuff. There's some overlap with his What Is This Thing stuff ... though he manages to restrain himself from the Ab a bit in this, and that diminished arpeggio, which makes it somewhat less tonic minor-y than it could be.


Still. Classic GG and cool. Maybe not his finest work, but cool.

I have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.

and here is grant's solo without backing. Storage Share

And he's playing the head in F in that clip. The highest note of GG's line in the opening bar (which is the second to last note) is an F. Take note of the fact that the last note GG plays in each of the repetitions of the head riff is not in the original score - he adds it. But it's a C, which is the dominant in the key in which he's playing it. Only the second and fourth iterations of that riff end with the dominant A on KoB, which is clearly played in D minor. But it's clearly the dominant - it's an A. I assume none of you disagrees with this.

Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

You got that right - it's what they'e playing. The F is the tonic and the C is the dominant - he's playing it in F. Again, look at any accurate transcription of the original for this tune - the highest note in the head riff is the tonic. In Miles' chart and recordings, it's a D, because the tune was written in D minor. But GG is playing it in F Major, so the highest note in his head line is an F.

Here's as much of Grant as I could write out in the time it took my coffee to brew. I stopped where he got hipper, but it's Ebs all day, A naturals all day. Ne'er an E natural to be found.

grant so what - Score.pdf - Google Drive

I promise to stop ... but the first fourteen or whatever measures that I got, he plays straight up a Cm from the root three times, with an embellishment once, and up a Cm9 arpeggio once. Couldn't be clearer.

What in the world does this have to do with the key in which Green is playing the tune? You included no key signature and added flats for B and E plus a sharp on one F - so I assume it's a transcription of 14 bars from somewhere in his solo. Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out. But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?

Dude this is like the twilight zone. The notes are

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

The chord is a what sounds like a Dm triad w F on top and an Eb at the bottom. Often used as an F13 or Cm6/9 voicing. Again … how are we in one flat, the key of F major?

A D minor triad with an F on top is the chord I identified in my first post on this, so you're confirming that you hear what I hear. I think you're interpreting it wrong and you think I am. So be it.

GG plays an F major (add 6) for both chords

I don't hear the Eb clearly, but if it's there it just makes it an F13 as you say yourself.

[pamosmusic]

I don’t really know how to carry forward a discussion with someone who isn’t sure how the literal notes he’s playing could be related to the key he’s playing the tune in.

Enjoy that feeling that comes with being the only person in the world who’s right.

[pamosmusic]

I have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.

I guess I just have a pedestrian ear, but ...

Because So What is generally considered to be played in a Dorian mode.

Dorian being the second mode of the major scale.

C being the second degree of the Bb major scale.

Bb major having two flats. So actually everyone but you has been suggesting that Grant is playing in that key.

(though it’s perhaps also relevant that if the key signature were that important than the Omnibook would be telling us that every tune Charlie Parker ever played was in C.)

Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.

The way you're using "tonic and dominant" in what is a modal melody doesn't really track either. We've already established that Grant is playing the melody up a fourth from what we'd expect, based on the harmony. But they're all clearly playing over a Cm/Dbm thing in the solos.

[pamosmusic]

What in the world does this have to do with the key in which Green is playing the tune? You included no key signature and added flats for B and E plus a sharp on one F - so I assume it's a transcription of 14 bars from somewhere in his solo. Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out.

Well ... I guess if you can't be bothered to go over the whole solo, I suppose I could say again that it’s the opening.

And again, you've been arguing that Grant isn’t playing in the original Dorian mode but you're missing the part where a Bb scale and a C Dorian mode contain the same notes.

But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?

This is typical of tonic minor. (Also the 14th is a B natural but I digress)

And I did note that the phrase with the Bb in it was the one that didn’t fit the tonic minor vibe.

also I didn’t “pepper my transcription” with those notes. Grant peppered his solo with them and I wrote them down.


(Me: I don’t know how to continue this argument.

Also me: [continues arguing]

I know I know I know I know. If It makes you all feel better I’m like this in person too.)

[pauln]

Usually I prefer Wes to Grant but I have to like Grant on this one, despite the "wrong key", the displaced non-cadence, the bass player sounding the major 3rd on the main motif... (anyone notice that?). This is a playful song meant to be played playfully. GG has a perkier approach that I like for this.
We do it in Dm; I like to play "Dm11" (as rootless G13sus4), D7sus4 (Bb Lyd Dom), quartal chords... melodic ideas moving through parts of D Dorian, Ab WH dim, G Lyd Dom... that's just in the "D Dorian section".

[ragman1]

djg -

Could you do Wes' solo without the backing? It's quite short.

[djg]

I have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.

C dorian has two flats. i'm out. good luck, buddy.

[grahambop]

The above discussion reminds me of the ‘is the dress blue’ controversy a few years ago.

[Peter C]

I'm not sure exactly what chord the piano is playing in the Grant Green clip but playing around for 5 mins I found Eb6/9 or Cmadd11 (11 X 10 10 8 X) to be a good fit*, or one I may use at some time anyway. Green is in Cm and his lines are C Dorian-blues + a bit of magic.

*Edit: actually, leaving out the 7 from the "habitual" quartal chord voicing and putting the 3 on the bottom does give an interesting colour (to my ears), obviously depending on what's going on around it.

[Christian Miller]

I do like the Grant version. He can do everything wrong and still be better at music than a thousand note perfect jazz school virtuosi in my book. He's just got style.

I'm not sure if I'm sufficiently motivated to check out one of Grant's lesser solos to prove people wrong on the internet (I know, what's happened to me) but there does seem to be some basic issues with music theory here...

Anyway peak JGO.

If it were up to me I'd go with a null key signature for this one, but if you have to put you could justify either two or three flats depending on your flavour.

BTW did you know you often see modal key signatures in original Bach scores etc, for instance G minor with one flat.... SHUT UP CHRISTIAN NO ONE CARES.

[grahambop]

BTW did you know you often see modal key signatures in original Bach scores etc, for instance G minor with one flat.... SHUT UP CHRISTIAN NO ONE CARES.

Actually that is quite interesting.

[Christian Miller]

Actually that is quite interesting.

They didn’t conceptualise key the way we do today.

It’s kind of complicated and I don’t really understand all of it, but I gather that although they weren’t writing modal music they kind of conceptually seemed to have the modes in mind, or more correctly, the old hexachordal solfeggio which had been in use since the Middle Ages and had its own logic different to the solfege system we use today.

For instance the minor scale always starts on Re, not La as one might expect today.

It’s strange. I really struggle to get my head around it ngl.

Heres a thread about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...tury_editions/

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[pamosmusic]

The above discussion reminds me of the ‘is the dress blue’ controversy a few years ago.

Except that you couldn’t transcribe the dress and find out exactly what notes Grant Green was playing when he wore it. Or whatever the heck.

Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.

But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.

[supersoul]

I hear C Dorian on the Grant Green version. Kenny Drew is playing a chord that's something like x 6 7 7 6 x, which is the upper extensions of C Dorian. The bass plays in C (he starts his solo on a C note, not that that matters). At the end of each of the 8 bar sections, the main riff holds the G (or Ab for the B section), which sounds like a held 5th to me.

[Christian Miller]

Except that you couldn’t transcribe the dress and find out exactly what notes Grant Green was playing when he wore it. Or whatever the heck.

Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.

But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.

Or…. Graham is a blue (or white) dress fundamentalist

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[Christian Miller]

Except that you couldn’t transcribe the dress and find out exactly what notes Grant Green was playing when he wore it. Or whatever the heck.

Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.

But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.

Innit funny the way Joe Henderson can play 6 on minor and not sound dominant.


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[grahambop]

Or…. Graham is a blue (or white) dress fundamentalist

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Hey it’s none of your business what dresses I wear.

[pamosmusic]

Innit funny the way Joe Henderson can play 6 on minor and not sound dominant.


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Yep modes kind of have different flavors within themselves too.

[grahambop]

Except that you couldn’t transcribe the dress and find out exactly what notes Grant Green was playing when he wore it. Or whatever the heck.

Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.

But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.

Grant’s version is a bit weird though, I can see where the confusion could come from. He is definitely playing the actual theme incorrectly for Cm, he has transposed it as if it’s in Fm. Also Kenny Drew is playing a chord voicing which does not strongly outline Cm to my ear. It makes it sound more like F13. But it’s not F major, I agree.

If Kenny Drew had played quartal chords like the original, it would probably have made the minor key clearer.

However the solos line up ok with Cm and Dbm.