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Originally Posted by djg
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10-13-2024 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
G C D Eb F G Eb F C
The chord is a what sounds like a Dm triad w F on top and an Eb at the bottom. Often used as an F13 or Cm6/9 voicing.
Again … how are we in one flat, the key of F major?
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Well, good news. I had the same pitches as Peter, but I was thinking the C was a b7th of D, not the root. So, my ear isn't as bad as I thought it was this morning.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Originally Posted by djg
I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot. It just sounds a little bit spicier than the straight perfect quartal.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by djg
Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
What in the world does this have to do with the key in which Green is playing the tune? You included no key signature and added flats for B and E plus a sharp on one F - so I assume it's a transcription of 14 bars from somewhere in his solo. Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out. But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I don’t really know how to carry forward a discussion with someone who isn’t sure how the literal notes he’s playing could be related to the key he’s playing the tune in.
Enjoy that feeling that comes with being the only person in the world who’s right.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Because So What is generally considered to be played in a Dorian mode.
Dorian being the second mode of the major scale.
C being the second degree of the Bb major scale.
Bb major having two flats. So actually everyone but you has been suggesting that Grant is playing in that key.
(though it’s perhaps also relevant that if the key signature were that important than the Omnibook would be telling us that every tune Charlie Parker ever played was in C.)
Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 12:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And again, you've been arguing that Grant isn’t playing in the original Dorian mode but you're missing the part where a Bb scale and a C Dorian mode contain the same notes.
But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?
And I did note that the phrase with the Bb in it was the one that didn’t fit the tonic minor vibe.
also I didn’t “pepper my transcription” with those notes. Grant peppered his solo with them and I wrote them down.
(Me: I don’t know how to continue this argument.
Also me: [continues arguing]
I know I know I know I know. If It makes you all feel better I’m like this in person too.)Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 12:42 AM.
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Usually I prefer Wes to Grant but I have to like Grant on this one, despite the "wrong key", the displaced non-cadence, the bass player sounding the major 3rd on the main motif... (anyone notice that?). This is a playful song meant to be played playfully. GG has a perkier approach that I like for this.
We do it in Dm; I like to play "Dm11" (as rootless G13sus4), D7sus4 (Bb Lyd Dom), quartal chords... melodic ideas moving through parts of D Dorian, Ab WH dim, G Lyd Dom... that's just in the "D Dorian section".
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djg -
Could you do Wes' solo without the backing? It's quite short.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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The above discussion reminds me of the ‘is the dress blue’ controversy a few years ago.
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I'm not sure exactly what chord the piano is playing in the Grant Green clip but playing around for 5 mins I found Eb6/9 or Cmadd11 (11 X 10 10 8 X) to be a good fit*, or one I may use at some time anyway. Green is in Cm and his lines are C Dorian-blues + a bit of magic.
*Edit: actually, leaving out the 7 from the "habitual" quartal chord voicing and putting the 3 on the bottom does give an interesting colour (to my ears), obviously depending on what's going on around it.Last edited by Peter C; 10-14-2024 at 06:51 AM.
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I do like the Grant version. He can do everything wrong and still be better at music than a thousand note perfect jazz school virtuosi in my book. He's just got style.
I'm not sure if I'm sufficiently motivated to check out one of Grant's lesser solos to prove people wrong on the internet (I know, what's happened to me) but there does seem to be some basic issues with music theory here...
Anyway peak JGO.
If it were up to me I'd go with a null key signature for this one, but if you have to put you could justify either two or three flats depending on your flavour.
BTW did you know you often see modal key signatures in original Bach scores etc, for instance G minor with one flat.... SHUT UP CHRISTIAN NO ONE CARES.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by grahambop
It’s kind of complicated and I don’t really understand all of it, but I gather that although they weren’t writing modal music they kind of conceptually seemed to have the modes in mind, or more correctly, the old hexachordal solfeggio which had been in use since the Middle Ages and had its own logic different to the solfege system we use today.
For instance the minor scale always starts on Re, not La as one might expect today.
It’s strange. I really struggle to get my head around it ngl.
Heres a thread about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...tury_editions/
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-14-2024 at 07:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.
But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.
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I hear C Dorian on the Grant Green version. Kenny Drew is playing a chord that's something like x 6 7 7 6 x, which is the upper extensions of C Dorian. The bass plays in C (he starts his solo on a C note, not that that matters). At the end of each of the 8 bar sections, the main riff holds the G (or Ab for the B section), which sounds like a held 5th to me.
Last edited by supersoul; 10-14-2024 at 07:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If Kenny Drew had played quartal chords like the original, it would probably have made the minor key clearer.
However the solos line up ok with Cm and Dbm.
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