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Originally Posted by gravitas
uh. this seems largely unfounded. i don't know how he sounds these days but he is over 65 years old. Wes passed away in his forties.
Benson in 1976 was as fluid technically as any jazz guitarist has ever been, and more fluid than 98% of them. his solos were well constructed too.
also, i have noticed that almost all musical ensembles and musicians sound better in studio recordings than they do live.
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07-15-2010 12:33 AM
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After reading fumblefingers assessment of George Benson,maybe George
should change his name to fumblefingers. Both guitarists sold out to the
entertainment business and embraced a wider ordience. [To make more bucks one has to dumb down]. But jazz still came through, especially with
Wes. It's worth bearing in mind that both guitarists [judged by modern standards] were musically illiterate. Does that not challenge modern teaching methods?..LG.
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Originally Posted by larry graves
I for one wouldn't call that selling out. That's just being a good father and husband.. being responsible.Wes Montgomery was a family man. He and wife Serene had seven children. Before he was able to survive as a musician alone, he worked long hours as a machinist.
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Right off the top he's dropping the head. Right off the top of the solos he's dropping notes, diving at runs that just aren't there. He basically starts at a point of total tension and goes for the throat the whole time. It's not a studio recording, but the best jazz is performed live anyway.
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+1 Originally Posted by fep
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You'd better do some research. Originally Posted by larry graves
After reading fumblefingers assessment of George Benson,maybe George
should change his name to fumblefingers. Both guitarists sold out to the
entertainment business and embraced a wider ordience. [To make more bucks one has to dumb down]. But jazz still came through, especially with
Wes. It's worth bearing in mind that both guitarists [judged by modern standards] were musically illiterate. Does that not challenge modern teaching methods?..LG.
Whatever "modern standards" are, Wes was not musically illiterate. This is from Pat Metheny, a source that I daresay is a bit more credible than you are. It's in his liner notes for Wes' Jazz Icons DVD:
How often in liner notes and articles have we been dutifully reminded of Wes' supposed inability to read music, the fact that he was "self-taught" and all of the other points of lore trotted out to somehow mystify the genius that is utterly self-evident in the legacy that is his music? In a particularly illuminating exchange, we see Wes discussing the harmony with pianist Jacobs. In requesting one of his favorite variations on the tune's descending harmonies we hear a musician not only fluent in the traditional nomenclature of harmony, but one who is thoroughly enlightened, eloquent and direct. (Instead of Bb-7/Eb7/AbMaj7 direct to the following Ab-7/Db7/GbMaj7, Wes requests that an additional II-V anticipating the next change a half step higher be added to set up the next sequence, resulting in Bb-7/Eb7/AbMaj7/A-7/D7/ then onto Ab-7/Db7/GbMaj7 etc.)
It is somewhat of a relief to hear him lay it out in such clear musical vocabulary. It was always apparent in Wes' music that he had devised one of the most detailed harmonic conceptions ever on the instrument, and as a beginner, when I read album notes and magazine pieces that harped on some kind of almost savant-like description of Wes' insight into musical invention, I often struggled with trying to imagine how exactly he might have arrived at some of the amazingly ingenious results that infuse his playing without at least occasionally thinking in these kinds of terms (tritone relationships, substitutions, etc.).
The concept of "selling out"to support your family is just claptrap. In Wes' case, he was still playing jazz in trios and quartets all during the CTI and pop phase of his career. And even in the stylized records that Wes made, he played his ass off. Listen to a song like Chim Chim Cheree which I think is in Going Out of My Head, and tell me how many guitarists could swing the ass of that song the way Wes did. A sellout? I think not.
Again from Metheny:
As he entered a more produced and arranged sonic environment (the results of which wound up showcasing some of his most lyrical and focused improvisations, critics of that direction and those subsequent Verve and A&M records be damned), his day-to-day life as a gigging musician continued most often in the piano, bass and drums quartet format that suited him well during this period.
Metheny's liner notes are worthy of a read and can be found in their entirety here:
Pat Metheny
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And then there is this quote from Pat Martino, also a credible source: Originally Posted by brian329
Taken from the this interview.Later on, Wes and I talked quite a bit when we bumped into each other on the road. One time I was going into a club while he was leaving, and I couldn't believe that he was helping the organist carry a Hammond B3 down two flights of stairs. We used to speak about that, and he would tell me how important it was to take care of business. Sometimes I'd watch him warm up. When I'd want him to explain what he had just played, he'd say, "I don't know anything about these names you're asking me about. I really can't give you an answer. That's not how I play. I play what I hear." We never played together because I was too young and still in awe.
Here's a quick NPR clip about Pat in which Wes is also discussed.
I agree with the idea that "Wes As The Idiot Savant Of Guitar" is completely overdone but I think the real truth lies somewhere in between those who believe he knew absolutely nothing and relied totally on instinct and those who think he could author a scale syllabus containing such useful jazz items as the "Hungarian Melodic Minor Second Scale With A Raised Fifth, Originally Adapted From The Ancient Persians" and have Mel Bay publish it.
He definitely knew what he was doing but was such a self deprecating man, and so unsure of his ability at times that he was often afraid to admit it. In the end he was a supreme interpreter of melody with a great ear, a very fair amount of knowledge, and the ability to make everything sound great by listening and injecting the blues into his solos.
He knew theory but didn't allow that particular disease to get in the way of PLAYING.
If only every guitarist were like that.Last edited by paynow; 07-15-2010 at 01:43 PM.
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How dare I challenge the word of God, sorry Pat Metheny! Wes was'nt the only one to work long hours as a machinist to feed his family, millions of people did in those days. Is jazz entertainment or art? If it's art keep it that way, there must have been enough jazz afficianados to fill the clubs when Wes was playing to enable him to feed his family. Wes was worked to death no two ways about that, who do you blame for that?
I can understand you nailing me for saying Wes was musically illiterate, wrong word, I should have said unschooled,as many a jazz genius was.LG..
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Yes indeed: a mostly pointless but very entertaining discussion!! FWIW, I think that Paynow is correct, but the Pat Metheny article is informative and does help clear up this notion that Wes (with some of his extremely innovative and still challenging harmonic substutions and developed sense of composition) knew nothing about theory, played only by ear, etc..
I think that Wes did indeed "sell out" but he did it out of genuine need, not out of greed or because he liked the violin stuff. On he contrary, I think that Benson actually just changed his mind, stopped liking the "artistic" stuff, or never saw it that way in the first place, and he wanted to be a popular singer. In any case, when I was at Berklee, GBs nephew was studying there at the time. People used to ask him about his uncle and he used to wince and say "I'll never sell out like that.!! I wonder if he did?
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Also, I don't think that someone completely devoid of musical literacy would have been invited by John Coltrane to play with his extremely experimental group that included Eric Dolphy and the cream of the avant-garde at that time.
BTW, what is so "harmonically sophisticated" about Benson. On his videos, he basically says exactly the same thing that Pat Martino reported of Wes. He says; " I don't know how to explain the stuff I do. I can't explain any of it", And then he goes on to spend most of the time scatting lines that he doesn't explain. He surely has/had enormous chops (i.e. he can play very fast lines) but in what sense is he so harmonically sophisticated? He's not so complex and innovative as Mike Stern, Metheny or Scofield.
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Originally Posted by brian329
i'm with you on this one.
other thoughts:
how many instrumentalists are as knowledgable as composers or music theory nerds anyway? and how many composer/arrangers can play truly inspired jazz improv at a virtuosic level or nearly virtuosic level?
have you ever heard the typical arranger/composer take a solo? i have. often times they overdo it by trying to be clever instead of just feeling and playing. so be careful what you wish for.
on selling out. that means not playing some form of bop, and "pop-ing" it up to sell more records right?. and thats a mortal sin. but then, how many accusers are there who don't also love their favorite pop or rock band or singer etc?
chances are if a great number of people respond positively to your instrumental music, you're doing something right. maybe not everything, but something.
and how is GB's nephew doing these days? how many CDs has he sold and how many concerts has he sold out, as a "young lion and keeper of the flame"?
i would reiterate that many live jazz performances are less disciplined than studio ones. and summer festivals in particular seem to be much more of a "party" or "jam" atmosphere too boot.
we can't have everything i guess.
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Benson is rich, he doesn't have to play the R & B.
Maybe Benson just likes to sing and play R & B. And maybe he likes reaching a larger audience.
In my way of looking at things, that's not a sell out at all. You can't say he sold out unless you hear it directly from him, otherwise you're trying to read his mind.
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That is something I'll get behind 100%... When I saw him last month I never saw a happier guy. He spent most of the show pointing at middle-aged government-job-working women and grinning wolfishly, before playing some huge obnoxious line. It was obvious to me that, in spite of the favourable or unfavourable opinions of other jazz musicians, George Benson the entertainer still really enjoys doing George Benson. Originally Posted by fep
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Absolutely. I have a friend who has performed at festivals with him, and said "George is George". He has a great time and loves to play. I get the impression that he's not concerned with keeping the the flame of bebop burning; I think he wants to make money, play some great funky music and get l--d. And to be honest as much as I love that flame it was extinguished a long time ago. He is a great player and while he doesn't move me the way Wes does I have no issue with a cat who can play the instrument the way Benson plays it doing things that make him commercially viable. My issue is always with the hacks who do commercial stuff and want to be considered on the same level as people who can really play. George can really play. Originally Posted by gravitas
As much as I love apples it's very difficult to sell any if people only want oranges.
Wes was from a different era, and even then jazz was not on the same level it had been. He was also a guy that despised touring and loved his family. If I'm not mistaken he worked in a factory rebuilding alternators or something just so he wouldn't have to go on the road, and this may have been after performing with Lionel Hampton. Those Mastersounds recordings are outstanding and I think Buddy and Monk are great players, yet Riverside started having him make records without his brothers because they felt he should be playing with the top guys. That really shows you that it was quite obvious that everyone realized this was a guitarist like no one had ever seen; it stands to reason that eventually they'd try to take him in a commercial direction and why shouldn't he accept? Why shouldn't have Benson done that? If I had a family to feed and wanted to be around them as much as possible I'd much rather make records for a boat load of money then say "f**k off, I'm an artist" then go work in an alternator rebuild shop or live like Van Gogh in a cold garret. Please. I'll admit that I like the real jazz records that Wes made the best, and I'd assume most guitarists on here probably do. Still, though, he does some fantastic work on the commercial stuff and pulls out things from some of those tunes that really make your head spin. I know folks that listened to the commercial work of both Wes and Benson and because of that were attracted to learn more and started listening to the less commercial stuff. That would not have happened if the two of them didn't "sell out" or whatever nonsense term people wish to use; it actually helps jazz gain a wider audience. The same goes for Nat King Cole; I had a friend who loves his singing and through that I was able to get him listening to the piano work and the older, less standard vocal tunes. He won downbeat for piano and I think George won for guitar as did Wes.
I knew a guy who could play straight ahead bop on guitar like he was on fire and the NYFD was chasing him down the street with a hose, yet as he got older nearly every gig had a commercial bent. I once asked him why he didn't play as much jazz and he said "Because I don't want to spend the rest of my life playing rhythm changes in the back of a pizzeria for $25, a slice and a subway token". He works all the time and his big motto is to quit trying to recreate an era but instead to use the positive aspects of that era to fashion a new one.Last edited by paynow; 07-16-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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I think that the last statement applies to all of us. As much as I love to play jazz in a small trio or quartet, it doesn't pay much so I also play the top 40, oldies, country gig because it pays much better (even though I enjoy playing all types of music). I also work as an electrician or mechanic, but would rather be playing music. Most of us have other jobs that pay the bills and allow us to buy and play more expensive instruments that we may not be able to afford if our only income was playing the music that we love to play. Wes and GB were lucky enough that their "other job" was playing and recording pop music instead of jazz.
What some call selling out, others just say that they are making a living.
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"Is too!"
"Is not!"
PJ
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Originally Posted by P.J.
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
PJ
LOL. reminds me of "discussions" on The Gear Page
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Beautiful. Originally Posted by paynow
It is just so easy for jazz nazi's to point fingers and get all Nat Hentoff about something that wouldn't appear on "Jazz With Bob Parlocha". What they don't get is the real cost. A cost that goes unmeasured. There are TONS of guys out there doing it so 100% right it's not even funny, and they can't get gigs. Mark Elf, anyone? Jack Grassel? Guys like Jack Wilkins have to teach cuz there are no gigs. 'Cept at the pizzeria. And they are lucky to get 10-20 people to show up (if they are not in New York).
But let Wes or G.B. do some pop jazz and suddenly they've sold out....pfft. It is called the music BUSINESS. If you charge money for your musical art, then you are in the MUSIC BUSINESS. And playing something people want to hear to get paid, just because you can, is a business decision.
The difference is whether or not you leave behind a body of work with integrity. And both Wes and G.B. have. That they have done some musical "day job" stuff is irrelevant. Had George stayed bebop, he'd be teaching at a university somewhere skulling for gigs and competing with Grassel, Wilkins, and Elf.
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