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  1. #1

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    Second bar first system should have C natural not C#.

    Wife (cellist) got very angry. Checked in Urtext, original key G (F natural)

    Is this a known error?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Never got past Volume I. Thanks for taking one for the team.
    Best regards, k

  4. #3

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    You mean it should be a D7 chord and not a DMa7 leading to the G or G add 9 chord in the next bar?

  5. #4

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    Michael Lorimer edition has C natural there, as you say. And a quick listen to the CD and it sounds like Noad played it correctly.

    Switching gears slightly, Noad played the prelude pretty flatly in terms of expression. Trying to remain true to the period? Maybe. But this version is much more enjoyable, but then it was played by a virtuoso.


    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 11-02-2019 at 01:14 PM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Michael Lorimer edition has C natural there, as you say. And a quick listen to the CD and it sounds like Noad played it correctly.

    Switching gears slightly, Noad played the prelude pretty flatly in terms of expression. Trying to remain true to the period? Maybe. But this version is much more enjoyable, but then it was played by a virtuoso.


    This will be informed by fairly up to date scholarship



    Obviously as we play guitar not silly chin cello we are out on a limb anyway. I vote for some latitude of tempo and a bit of dynamic expression because it seems nice to bring it to life.

  7. #6

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    Don’t care what Lorimar has. Always check the urtext baby. :-) (in actual fact my wife plays cello so we have it knocking around.)

    Interesting thing about the Noad misprint is the fingerings are consistent with the incorrect note.

  8. #7

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    The note is C natural, of course. Noad is not regarded a great arranger, though I learned from his two volumes a century ago, or so it seems. I have a soft spot for those books, but they are dated now.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Noad played the prelude pretty flatly in terms of expression. Trying to remain true to the period?
    Where does Bach say, "Play my music flatly"? He was a man of great passion. Noad just played badly. Don't blame Bach.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Where does Bach say, "Play my music flatly"? He was a man of great passion. Noad just played badly. Don't blame Bach.
    I didn't blame Bach and was trying to be neutral, and I can hear Noad just fine, thank you.

    You're not suggesting that expression was the same from the Baroque through Romantic periods though. You wouldn't do that.

    So, do you think that Kulikova's performance was in any way influenced by what came after Bach?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    The note is C natural, of course. Noad is not regarded a great arranger, though I learned from his two volumes a century ago, or so it seems. I have a soft spot for those books, but they are dated now.
    Do you ever play that piece Rob? I know it's a bit of a cheesy choice, but I just wanted a classical party piece for applying for teaching gigs, and its not too hard.

    The slurring and overring seems a ripe area for editorial decisions. What editions do you think are good for this piece?

  12. #11

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    Listening to the Kulikova she is playing it in drop D and using octave alternating basses.... many guitar versions I have heard do this, and I suppose it's a way of filling out the sound of what is a lighter key than the original key G.

    A few other things - use of overringing capenelas scales towards the end and playing that ascending chromatic scale in thirds.

    Gives a bit more vibe as a guitar piece but of course the thirds and the bass alternating are additions are not found in the original Bach.

    I enjoyed it.... Transcription is always a matter of translation, no?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Don’t care what Lorimar has. Always check the urtext baby. :-) (in actual fact my wife plays cello so we have it knocking around.)

    Interesting thing about the Noad misprint is the fingerings are consistent with the incorrect note.
    If you you did care what Lorimar has, you might find that he used some nice double stops in the climactic 5th and 4th last bars of the piece, like Kulikova did, and like Noad didn't.

  14. #13

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    The Segovia version is pretty heavily arranged, of course, lots of extra notes!



    In a weird way, I think if you are going to pay this piece on guitar, why not go full on Segovia haha? (I mean I can't play it that's my excuse)

    The cello can sell simpler music just by it's sound....

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    If you you did care what Lorimar has, you might find that he used some nice double stops in the climactic 5th and 4th last bars of the piece, like Kulikova did, and like Noad didn't.
    See above

  16. #15

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    Lorimer used drop D tuning Christian. Just check it out and knock off the one upsmanship BS.

    Also, the piece isn't cheesy, but Hollywood's use of it can be.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I enjoyed it.... Transcription is always a matter of translation, no?
    Yes, it is. And Lorimer used 6ths as opposed to thirds. I prefer Kulikova's.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Lorimer used drop D tuning Christian. Just check it out and knock off the one upsmanship BS.
    Is she playing the Lorimer edition then?

    Also, the piece isn't cheesy, but Hollywood's use of it can be.
    I meant it's an obvious cheesy choice, the one everyone knows, but that's why I thought it would be a good one to do for my nefarious purposes.

    Anyway, one advantage of using drop D is that you can play the whole suite (IIRC the following piece requires drop D) but I'm shite at reading in alternate tunings, and that's unlikely to change soon.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Yes, it is. And Lorimer used 6ths as opposed to thirds. I prefer Kulikova's.
    Just saw this, so no.

    I think I'll stick with standard just for simplicity's sake. It'll be good enough for what I need it for. Drop D always sounds immense on guitar though.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Is she playing the Lorimer edition then?



    I meant it's an obvious cheesy choice, the one everyone knows, but that's why I thought it would be a good one to do for my nefarious purposes.

    Anyway, one advantage of using drop D is that you can play the whole suite (IIRC the following piece requires drop D) but I'm shite at reading in alternate tunings, and that's unlikely to change soon.
    No I think she's likely playing her own transcription/arrangement.

    Some time ago I searched for different published transcriptions of this piece for the guitar and was disappointed by the small number of attractive choices. Lorimer has some artistic cred that the others don't, so I bought it. I don't like everything about it, but you can always change it up because it's transcribed for the guitar as opposed to written for the guitar. (A loophole that keeps the classical police from arresting you). For example, Kulikova's transcription is probably her own and I don't hear one single thing in it that I don't like, but that's just one opinion.

    Cheesy, yes it can be used in a cheesy way. Why? Because it's so powerful and people can leverage it to push others emotional buttons, like at a really girly wedding, or in a melodramatic movie or manipulative commercial, etc.

  21. #20

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    Of course this piece in some ways put you-know-who on the map. Casual setting but some interesting comments at 2:30




    And one of his many "real" performances

  22. #21

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    AFAIK it was Pablo cassals who originally put the suites on the map... and I have to say along with Segovia, that unfashionable early/mid 20th century way of playing Bach, I kind of love it.



    It’s hard to imagine pieces so defining of the cello repertoire was obscure until the 20th century... these days when so much as a sneeze of Bach would be recorded in its original site in Leipzig
    by John Eliot Gardner it’s amazing to think that there were obscure corners of the music of a man who might be reasonably argued as the greatest composer of all time....

    One question I have (probably for Rob) is on the urtext it says ‘senza bass’ - ie (presumably) without continuo accompaniment. Was Bach the first to do this, or just the one who did it well?

    Obviously the unaccompanied solo string pieces are amazing study vehicles for jazz musicians because they show how to outline changes in a single melodic line...
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2019 at 06:23 AM.

  23. #22

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    I read a book about the history of the cello suites a few years ago, it was quite interesting as I recall, it was by Eric Siblin (just looked it up).

    I have the Stanley Yates edition of the complete cello suites arranged for guitar, it contains some quite detailed essays about baroque interpretation, ornamentation etc. which are useful. Another nice touch is that in addition to his arrangements (with fingering), he also includes the original cello version alongside his version (transposed to the ‘guitar’ key), so you can easily compare bar by bar what he has changed from the original (and make your own guitar version if you want to).

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    (A loophole that keeps the classical police from arresting you).
    Haha

    Well I don’t have much worry on that front lol

    In real terms I’m just demonstrating that I can play a bit of classical for education and I enjoy bashing through classical pieces for my own enjoyment (doing more teaching and needing to sight read graded rep in lessons etc usually reminds me of this) but in the main being a classical interpreter to the point where the classical police notice you enough to decide that what are doing is crap, is a full time job. Interpretation is such a heavy trip... I remember doing lieder masterclasses and it just being super specific.

    I mean mostly jazz players doing the classical thing tend to be pretty meh unless they are Keith Jarrett...

    OTOH I play jazz with guys from a classical background, and that can be interesting. Super detailed and anal about everything haha. It’s an education in another way of going about it. They are good improvisers but less willing to let things play out or go off piste than the pure jazzers I know.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2019 at 05:38 AM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I read a book about the history of the cello suites a few years ago, it was quite interesting as I recall, it was by Eric Siblin (just looked it up).

    I have the Stanley Yates edition of the complete cello suites arranged for guitar, it contains some quite detailed essays about baroque interpretation, ornamentation etc. which are useful. Another nice touch is that in addition to his arrangements (with fingering), he also includes the original cello version alongside his version (transposed to the ‘guitar’ key), so you can easily compare bar by bar what he has changed from the original (and make your own guitar version if you want to).
    Nice, thanks. I have the Siblin book. I started it but didn’t finish it, iirc Siblin is writing very much from the sensitive non-musician’s perspective which is interesting read in itself.

  26. #25

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    The Stanley Yates edition from Mel Bay is streets ahead of any other guitar edition, both for the notation and the essay on the history and interpretation of this music. It is controversial in the classical guitar micro world for having the first cello suite in the key of C. The original of course is in G, and all other guitar arrangements are in D, so C stands out as being different. But it works well.

    As for Christian's question over whether Bach was the first to do such "senza bass" pieces, he wasn't. They date right back to the early baroque period where a bass line at least was always played by a bass instrument, lute or keyboard, with improvised chords and runs above the bass - continuo playing. When the composer wanted just the solo instrument, he had to specify this, if only to stop overeager jobbing accompanists jumping in. As specifically regards the cello, the Italian composer, Domenico Gabrieli published in 1689 solo works (7 Ricercar and a Canon) to be played unaccompanied. We don't know if Bach knew them, but he certainly knew the unaccompanied cello suites of Biber and Westhoff. Some see connections between the Biber and Bach's first cello suite.

    As for interpretation, the overriding thing is to study oratory. Imagine you are talking to a small crowd of people, using fairly short sentences, emphasising certain points, engaging the audience in your discourse. The subject of your discourse would vary from heavy and profound to light a frothy, but always articulated well, sometimes passionately, other times with noble disdain :-) Have fun!

  27. #26

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    Well you guys have got me on a Bach cello kick now! First I listened to a couple of suites played on the cello by Maurice Gendron (the only CDs I have of this on the cello, I think the recordings date from the 1960s but sound very good).

    Then I played the prelude from BWV 1010 from the Yates book. Great way to spend a Sunday morning!

    Probably going to re-read the Siblin book too.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    to stop overeager jobbing accompanists jumping in
    lol I have seen those guys on a few jazz gigs.

  29. #28

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    Here's the greatest Bach recording of all time, including the future, and while I'm at it, any multiverse you care to imagine.


  30. #29

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  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    AFAIK it was Pablo cassals who originally put the suites on the map... and I have to say along with Segovia, that unfashionable early/mid 20th century way of playing Bach, I kind of love it.



    It’s hard to imagine pieces so defining of the cello repertoire was obscure until the 20th century... these days when so much as a sneeze of Bach would be recorded in its original site in Leipzig
    by John Eliot Gardner it’s amazing to think that there were obscure corners of the music of a man who might be reasonably argued as the greatest composer of all time....

    One question I have (probably for Rob) is on the urtext it says ‘senza bass’ - ie (presumably) without continuo accompaniment. Was Bach the first to do this, or just the one who did it well?

    Obviously the unaccompanied solo string pieces are amazing study vehicles for jazz musicians because they show how to outline changes in a single melodic line...
    No, what I said was the suites put Yo-Yo on the map.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    No, what I said was the suites put Yo-Yo on the map.
    Well I suppose it’s been a bit of a rite of passage for cellists since Cassals recorded them. Don’t know about yo-yo.

    I like his Silk Road stuff a lot actually.... interesting musician, crossover can be a bit embarrassing, but I think yoyo does it the way it should be.

  33. #32

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    Yo-Yo Ma? Had to look it up, but he has 18 Grammy's. The first was in 1985 for Best Instrumental Soloist Performance, then it rained Grammy's from there until 2017. In three of those years he won two Grammy's.

    You'll never guess what he played to win that first of many Grammy's in 1985.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Yo-Yo Ma? Had to look it up, but he has 18 Grammy's. The first was in 1985 for Best Instrumental Soloist Performance, then it rained Grammy's from there until 2017. In three of those years he won two Grammy's.

    You'll never guess what he played to win that first of many Grammy's in 1985.
    Haha raining Grammys I like it. 18 is pretty extraordinary. I mean there are other awesome cellists in the world haha. Maybe it’s just the default now....

    Grammys are a bit of a US thing, don’t get much coverage over here afaik.

    But he’s chosen well with his projects and stuff, I think, the kind of thing that gets attention and then puts him in the running for awards too.

    I’d be surprised if he wasn’t the only cellist to make a breakthrough with recordings of those pieces mind. Not sure who else off the top of my head, but they are such iconic pieces now....

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Haha raining Grammys I like it. 18 is pretty extraordinary. I mean there are other awesome cellists in the world haha. Maybe it’s just the default now....

    Grammys are a bit of a US thing, don’t get much coverage over here afaik.

    But he’s chosen well with his projects and stuff, I think, the kind of thing that gets attention and then puts him in the running for awards too.

    I’d be surprised if he wasn’t the only cellist to make a breakthrough with recordings of those pieces mind. Not sure who else off the top of my head, but they are such iconic pieces now....
    Euros are nominated for and win lots of classical Grammy's, but to be honest classical Grammy's don't get much attention and the same goes for Jazz. The Grammy's are too busy pandering to hip-hop and pop acts, and present the awards on a music variety show in prime time. They invent new categories frequently to ensure that everyone can win an award, no matter what kind of poo they're slinging out there. It's all about art, of course.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Euros are nominated for and win lots of classical Grammy's, but to be honest classical Grammy's don't get much attention and the same goes for Jazz. The Grammy's are too busy pandering to hip-hop and pop acts, and present the awards on a music variety show in prime time. They invent new categories frequently to ensure that everyone can win an award, no matter what kind of poo they're slinging out there. It's all about art, of course.
    Sure it doesn’t get much coverage here unless pop stars have a bust up or something. Nothing classical gets much attention tbh.

    According to Wikipedia George Solti won the most Grammys - 31!