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  1. #51

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    Good video to learn Little Sadie solo guitar version after Tony Rice


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Jonah -

    I've often heard Tony Rice say that he didn't actually do crosspicking. At least, that's how he expressed it. Doc Watson definitely did, and said he did. Clarence White did too but, if you look at his videos, a lot of the time he's using his fingers w/pick.

    What Tony Rice said he does is just kind of rolling patterns with the pick to fill out the chords instead of strumming. When you get good with a pick you just kind of do it naturally, usually combined with bass runs too.

    I'm not saying, of course, that they never thought about it or practiced it. They must have done, but after a while it stops being formal and becomes part of the style. Sure, it's crosspicking in the sense you're picking across the strings but it's not a strictly formalised pattern; it's just something you do naturally when you're in the zone, as they say :-)

    Trouble is, others come along, like instruction video interviewers, because players want to copy it, and ask them to break it down. So they look a bit puzzled and have to stop and think. They can't say 'Well, you just kinda do it!' so they have to do it slowly. But all they're doing really is using the pick in a flowing style. Some of it, technically, is crosspicking, some of it is sweeping, some of it might be fairly random to fit the tune.

    I'll see if I can find some examples.

  4. #53

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    That's an interesting perspective Ragman and one I find very, well, Tony Rice. Sometimes it's easier to develop the thing without breaking it down.

    You hear it often from players who have developed a certain thing that everyone is desperate to copy.

    That said, this is no help at all for the generation of young Nashville session players who are expected to wheel out Tony Rice crosspicking on demand. They HAD to break it down lol.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-15-2017 at 01:39 AM.

  5. #54

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    Hm.. I seemed to send and answer to Rag from my Samsung - but now do not see it from the computer...

    Really strange...

    It was too long to type it over.

    I just wanted to say I totally agree.. yesterday I went through his Wildwood flower and I noticed that he does it all very freely... mixing strumming some light and strong cross picking - touching strings with his fingers... I just analyzed where the sound I lkie comes from and tried to reduce it to more regular patterns for study..

    You cannot repeat such feengs lexactly.. it's like tryong to jump into a moving train by strict calculation and precise aiming.. maybbe you will manage to do it but you will look and feel stuck and awkward..

    these things come whe you get natural with the technique and flow into the music feel... that is you run along the train first and just jump in

    To learn from Tony's video one should use one'sar and head.. besides he seems not to know exactly what he does sometimes... I mean he is not musch of a tutor maybe... even slowing doesn fast playing sometimes seems to be a problem for him.. because this lick comes out when you play fast naturally and does not work when you do it slow...

    Chris Ekdridge also plays that mix (undecipherable) way...

    And Doc, Clarence and Norman Blake are much more clear...

    I would say they sound often more like banjo style (like there's no sustain), and Tony implies more specific guitar features...... let it melt sound and mix

  6. #55

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    Breakdown being the operative word... :-)
    Thanks...
    really cool)


    You know actually I do not have parobalem with these extra notes and relaxed stuff... I got into it very natureally - I just began improvizing and I felt comfortable with mixing...
    Probably some recious experence helped here...

    My real problem was stability, like I play on and on and suddenly I kind of get stuck ... that was actually the reason I decided to fix the basics.

    And doing real cross picking... I mean satying clear in time doing cross picking without exttra notes accents strums etc. This is the roblem I have to solve now.
    I want to make it now and I think that my improvized playing should improve them feel more secure...


    I' ll try to do a vid of where I am now

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    because this lick comes out when you play fast naturally and does not work when you do it slow...
    I think that's right. Also, Tony Rice is a very intuitive player, he just does what he thinks is right at the time so it's very difficult to repeat himself. I think there are one or two things he always plays the same, like the intro to Blue Railroad Train, but he never really repeats his solos, even on instruction tapes (not that I've really seen them).

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    suddenly I kind of get stuck ...
    That happened to me too. A lot of it is because this is very traditional music and I'm not traditional; it doesn't fit with my mindset so I seize up.

    I' ll try to do a vid of where I am now
    That would be good!

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You hear it often from players who have developed a certain thing that everyone is desperate to copy.
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    What Tony Rice said he does is just kind of rolling patterns with the pick to fill out the chords instead of strumming. When you get good with a pick you just kind of do it naturally, usually combined with bass runs too.

    I'm not saying, of course, that they never thought about it or practiced it. They must have done, but after a while it stops being formal and becomes part of the style. Sure, it's crosspicking in the sense you're picking across the strings but it's not a strictly formalised pattern; it's just something you do naturally when you're in the zone, as they say :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I just wanted to say I totally agree.. yesterday I went through his Wildwood flower and I noticed that he does it all very freely... mixing strumming some light and strong cross picking - touching strings with his fingers... I just analyzed where the sound I lkie comes from and tried to reduce it to more regular patterns for study..
    These rolling patterns are really just variations of strumming patterns. It's all alternate picking. If you're holding a chord or series of chords, the right hand motion is the same, but one is single string and one is strum.

    I have a 19yr old kid who is always trying to pin me down on patterns like this. "How did you know which strings your picking? How did you learn to to put all of those notes around the melody?"

    And you really just don't. You begin by strumming. Then, make it single note. Now, keep it going through the chord changes. It doesn't really matter which strings as long as it's a chord shape which works. There were no wrong notes there.

    You do that enough and the instrument teaches the ears and fingers how to start doing these (initially random things) purposefully. You get to where you can play - anything which you CAN play (and that's a big qualifier)- with this filled-out style. You add lead lines and bass lines etc, but it's all just down-up. It's worth learning a some basic rolls etc., but at a certain point it's not a conscious thing.

    So, you might not necessarily bear down and reverse engineer complex-intuitive. You may just work variations of random - with a soft target of things like melody, lead line, or bass. Your ears/fingers then learn, by default, to make these patterns purposeful - and you can actually articulate it the way you hear it -without really thinking.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-15-2017 at 07:50 AM.

  10. #59

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    I think that in that sense crosspicking is a sort of strumming too... not technically of course but semantically. Guitar is very popular instrument and I once tried to follow how differently it is played in different countries in the level of amateur song comping. Though American type came everywhere through rock and pop some trafitional features ste still there... In Italy it is strogly influenced by chitarra batente tradition. In spain it is very special of course.... in france it reminds me a mixture of romance and fiddle... in latin america lots of histircal instrumets and techniques were preserved... son, brazilian guitar, argentine,m mecican... they all have their specific strumming thst kids do in the yards or in the streets from the very beginning...In russia as a kid i heard lots of strumming mostly so called `bards` singing poets very popular movement from 60`s... usually they used the same simple harmony based on romance, prison folk, russian folk and russian gipsy... the lyrics were more important some were really great poets..
    So as a kid the first thing you learnt is these specific strumming... so when I hot American music it did not really work

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I think that in that sense crosspicking is a sort of strumming too...
    Yes, absolutely. It's also a filler, makes an interesting change from single notes. Something similar is floating, but that's not the subject here.

  12. #61

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    I kinda just consider crosspicking as a word for finger style picking chords with a plectrum

  13. #62
    Thanks guys. Trying to prescribe the set rolling patterns over melodies was tripping me up. Thinking of it as a more free flowing improvised thing is helping. Still practicing the 3 note rolls but conceptually it helps to not get married to them when working on an arrangement.

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb View Post
    Thanks guys. Trying to prescribe the set rolling patterns over melodies was tripping me up. Thinking of it as a more free flowing improvised thing is helping. Still practicing the 3 note rolls but conceptually it helps to not get married to them when working on an arrangement.
    Definitely helps too work out basic patterns. I used to work on them, and they are helpful. At the time, I never really understood how I could ever get enough reps to be able to do anything remotely like that on the fly.

    Once you get some basic technique with it, it basically becomes about broader phrasing issues. Tony Rice and others aren't able to articulate those cross picking things on-the-fly only because of an ability to conceive the iterations of polymetric cross picking - relevant to upcoming melodic passages so much.

    It's more that they have an infinite way of rhythmically articulating a given melody. They aren't locked in . They can adjust the phrasing to facilitate what needs to be played or vice versa.

    When you listen to the cross picking passages the rhythms are always altered . That's what makes them musically interesting and cool, but it also facilitates the style . It's really synergistic win-win.

    Beyond fundamental technique, the most important thing there is to be able to catch up or slow the phrase back down when it gets ahead/behind by a certain amount. Really fundamental to jazz playing in my mind as well. Maybe more important than almost anything else. I think the temptation is to infer that fantastic phrasing is simply the RESULT of great playing. Personally, I think, it's probably the thing which drives the ability to technically pull anything off.

  15. #64

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    How could we not mention the great Robert bowling!?



    This blows my freekin mind


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  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar View Post
    How could we not mention the great Robert bowling!?



    This blows my freekin mind


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    Great moments of rest stroke technique throughout. Never breaks flow.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar View Post
    How could we not mention the great Robert bowling!?
    I hadn't heard him before. He's got the 6th to D. And nice guitar.

    Now... imagine all that strumming replaced (mostly) with x-picking rolls... mmm!

  18. #67

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    How could we not mention the great Robert bowling!?

    Great struff... I really like it...

    Pat Metheny could have sounded like this if he had stayed in Lee Summit for a longer while...)))

    I mean this sounds a bit more modern and conventional than traditional bluegrass... sounds like kind of 'some folk guitar'

    I watched hs other vids... I heard him actually in group... it sounded quite traditional.

    But.. .
    there's always a' but'

    Not as critics.. but some specualtions

    I see that he does a lot of more modern country-pop stuff - just using acoustic instrument.

    On one hand it's cool... because it gives an entry for guys like me (who was not born in Deep Gap).
    I mean when I listen to Tony Rice I understand that it's not even technique but just the feel tat I will never get. And when I listen to this.. well I am not sure but at least it seems like I could give it a try

    On the other hand there's a risk to get blended too much completely in pop stuff...
    sometimes it happens when traditional player musicians try to become more conventional and accessable...

    I mean Tony or Doc soound authentically crude and it makes it very specia,so individual.. and in a way subtle...

    I hadn't heard him before. He's got the 6th to D. And nice guitar.
    Aha... does not look much like a D-18


    Now... imagine all that strumming replaced (mostly) with x-picking rolls... mmm!
    this is exactly what I though about!

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Great struff... I really like it...

    Pat Metheny could have sounded like this if he had stayed in Lee Summit for a longer while...)))

    I mean this sounds a bit more modern and conventional than traditional bluegrass... sounds like kind of 'some folk guitar'

    I watched hs other vids... I heard him actually in group... it sounded quite traditional.

    But.. .
    there's always a' but'

    Not as critics.. but some specualtions

    I see that he does a lot of more modern country-pop stuff - just using acoustic instrument.

    On one hand it's cool... because it gives an entry for guys like me (who was not born in Deep Gap).
    I mean when I listen to Tony Rice I understand that it's not even technique but just the feel tat I will never get. And when I listen to this.. well I am not sure but at least it seems like I could give it a try

    On the other hand there's a risk to get blended too much completely in pop stuff...
    sometimes it happens when traditional player musicians try to become more conventional and accessable...

    I mean Tony or Doc soound authentically crude and it makes it very specia,so individual.. and in a way subtle...



    Aha... does not look much like a D-18




    this is exactly what I though about!
    Any links to the "modern country pop stuff"

    I have his album it's quite traditional.


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  20. #69

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    Here's a nice little crosspicking lesson -- not everything you need to know, but plenty to work on, at least.

    "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." (Arthur Ashe)

  21. #70

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    Any links to the "modern country pop stuff"
    Well what you posted above sounds pretty modern... (and teh tune does not sound like traditional - did he compose it? Is it a tribute to Maebelle Carter?)
    in comparison to Norman Blake, Doc, Clarence White, Tony Rice (even when Tony deliberately tries to make some new things)... to be honest even Chris Eldridge with Julian LAge sound more traditional to me.

    It's not about repertoire, it's about approach, sound, phrasing...

    Of course Robert has traditional records too. (Actually his was teh first bluegrass record I heard, it was very traditional).

    But even what you posted sound to me more like a pop-guitar playing in some folk style... you know it's like another step forward it will be like Tony Emmanuel...


    Again.. let me stress... I don't say it's bad.
    Last edited by Jonah; 04-15-2017 at 09:39 PM.

  22. #71

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    Here's a nice little crosspicking lesson -- not everything you need to know, but plenty to work on, at least.
    Yeh I posted it above already. It' very simple to learn actually... but takes time to develope to a good level. And also very nice open strings chords. I also did the same thing on othe strings after this excercise

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yeh I posted it above already. It' very simple to learn actually... but takes time to develope to a good level. And also very nice open strings chords. I also did the same thing on othe strings after this excercise
    Sorry -- I scrolled through the thread to see if it was already here, but must have overlooked it.
    "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." (Arthur Ashe)

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Well what you posted above sounds pretty modern... (and teh tune does not sound like traditional - did he compose it? Is it a tribute to Maebelle Carter?)
    in comparison to Norman Blake, Doc, Clarence White, Tony Rice (even when Tony deliberately tries to make some new things)... to be honest even Chris Eldridge with Julian LAge sound more traditional to me.

    It's not about repertoire, it's about approach, sound, phrasing...

    Of course Robert has traditional records too. (Actually his was teh first bluegrass record I heard, it was very traditional).

    But even what you posted sound to me more like a pop-guitar playing in some folk style... you know it's like another step forward it will be like Tony Emmanuel...


    Again.. let me stress... I don't say it's bad.
    Agreed, for one minute I though you meant he'd gone into Brad paisley territory lol


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  25. #74

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    Now that Julian's tune (Ryland) with lyrics...

    New program in trio now... new record is coming on?


  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Now that Julian's tune (Ryland) with lyrics...

    New program in trio now... new record is coming on?

    I saw them in Seattle this week. I'm not sure if they have enough trio arrangements for a CD yet but Aoife mentioned they're working on it. She performed solo for about half of the first set before the guys came onstage. Most of the 2nd set was a guys' duo, with a couple of trios at the end. It was a great show though.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    I saw them in Seattle this week. I'm not sure if they have enough trio arrangements for a CD yet but Aoife mentioned they're working on it. She performed solo for about half of the first set before the guys came onstage. Most of the 2nd set was a guys' duo, with a couple of trios at the end. It was a great show though.
    Oh you make me envious...)

  28. #77

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    This is an old thread but I've just found this. We're familiar with Tony Rice's bluegrass virtuosity but the speed and clarity of his picking is still astounding. Just dashes it off so casually :-)


  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    This is an old thread but I've just found this. We're familiar with Tony Rice's bluegrass virtuosity but the speed and clarity of his picking is still astounding. Just dashes it off so casually :-)
    Imagine how much hard work it must take to make it look that easy . . .
    "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." (Arthur Ashe)

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace View Post
    Imagine how much hard work it must take to make it look that easy . . .
    I really don't know. He's been doing it all his life and obviously had a massive residual talent. I do know he's paid a dreadful price for the constant strain put on his body. That aside, things were never quite the same after Tony Rice.

  31. #80

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    Does this count?


  32. #81

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    Kind of :-)

    But flatpicking is usually acoustic Bluegrass etc. I mean, Joe Pass used a pick but I wouldn't call him a flatpicker

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar View Post
    How could we not mention the great Robert bowling!?



    This blows my freekin mind


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    Robert Bowlin. Great fiddler to, Bill Monroes last fiddler. I play the fiddle he played with Monroe.
    Pete Martin - just a mandolin guy but loves jazz guitar
    www.PetimarPress.com
    Www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

  34. #83

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    Late to the party here...I love flatpicking fiddle tunes. Tony is my hand's down favorite. The coordination between his left and right hand is astounding. Tony's hand's did give up on him. Doc's were pretty much intact to the end. Doc used to plug in.Tony never plugged in always playing into a mic. Playing bluegrass music into microphones is physically demanding.

    Later in his career he started playing chord melody type solo guitar. Here is Shenadoah.



    This instruction DVD of his is a joy to watch and listen to. You get to hear his D28 in an very intimate way. Loads of great instruction and knowledge. I never get tired of it.

    Tony Rice Guitar Method | Homespun

    Finally a great CD where you get to hear many of the masters all in one place:

    Bryan Sutton - Not Too Far From The Tree - Amazon.com Music

  35. #84

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    Matt Munisteri does some nice work with the old style of flatpicking on the works of Nick Lucas and Eddie Lang.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes View Post



    This instruction DVD of his is a joy to watch and listen to. You get to hear his D28 in an very intimate way. Loads of great instruction and knowledge. I never get tired of it.

    Tony Rice Guitar Method | Homespun
    That's a great one, all right -- I like this version even better than the one by Garcia/Grisman on Not For Kids Only. I don't have Tony's Homespun DVD yet -- most of my stuff from them is by Steve Kaufman -- but it's on my list for this year.
    "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." (Arthur Ashe)

  37. #86

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    Mark O'Connor then and now...and I won't even go into the mandolin and fiddle...




  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFrench View Post
    Mark O'Connor then and now...and I won't even go into the mandolin and fiddle...



    My daughter's fiddle teacher let me borrow a Mark O'Connor CD called The Championship Years: 1975-1984, and I had a hard time giving it back in a timely manner. It's all good, but he has three different versions of "Grey Eagle, " from different years in that span, and they're all astonishing.

    He also does a couple of different variations of "Tom and Jerry," but I think my favorite one of that tune is the one he did on Dan Crary's Guitar album.

    So convinced am I that O'Connor can make good music on anything with strings, that I'd pay good money just to hear what he could do with one of my old gym shoes.
    "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." (Arthur Ashe)

  39. #88

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    I love that Mark O'Connor vid--I saw him years ago with the Dixie Dregs. Superlative picker.

  40. #89

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    I understand they had to change the rules of the National flatpicking contest because O’Connor kept winning it.

  41. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I understand they had to change the rules of the National flatpicking contest because O’Connor kept winning it.
    Very interesting. Info graphic about it at the end of this vid:

    Quote Originally Posted by BFrench View Post
    Mark O'Connor then and now...and I won't even go into the mandolin and fiddle...