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A lot of great names mentioned.
I liked Keter Betts a lot.
More recently, Scott Colley.
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04-15-2024 08:45 PM
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I do like upright bass. Bass was my first instrument and I also played upright. Maybe saying Charles shredded all the greats wasn't accurate. But he certainly shreds all the average work of playing quarter notes then thudding around for a solo. I think if he focused on jazz and played upright he would be the goat. I actually find the pingy electric tone kind of disagreeable and marginally listenable, I just think he's the most outstanding bassist I've ever encountered.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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It wasn't accurate, just an opinion but glad you can see it. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Can't say I agree w the notion that a great upright solo is "thudding around" but to each his own.
Is this just "sawing around"?
Just kidding....I think
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Yes, saying 1 person shredded all of history is a bit of a grandiose statement. However, it's still absurd if you think Charles's playing isn't several levels above PC or even that PC's playing is somehow superior musically. That's indefensible. That would be like if you tried to editorialize John Lennon into being the superior guitarist compared to Matteo Mancuso because of their reputation. In both cases, both their music has merit, but one is objectively a more advanced instrumentalist.
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The fact is, he doesn't play jazz and you don't know if he could, i.e., improvise and accompany other jazz musicians well. As far as I can tell, he arranges and performs pieces. There are classical double bass and cello players who do that (and at a virtuoso level), should they be mentioned in this thread? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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I dont think there's too many people that feel Lennon, who's more known for being a songwriter and not really not known for being a guitarist, would say he's a better player than MM whose forte is guitar playing, though JL will always be more famous. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Chambers isn't just one of the greatest jazz bassists that ever lived he was one of the greatest jazz musicians that ever lived, regardless of instrument. That said, I'm not saying Chambers, Brown or any of the greats are superior to CB. Not really into singling out 'best' players, but I think we can agree they all have their place. Time will tell who's contribution is more recognized but Chambers died over 55 yrs ago and is still revered at least as much if not more than he ever was. I'm guessing we won't be around in 55 yrs to see (well, I'm relatively certain I won't) but my money's on PC's place in history. And there's no way you're gonna convince me CB's playing is even one "level above" whatever that means, than any of the great upright players mentioned in this thread let alone "several" sorry ...
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Mr. Paul Jackson. Now, it's hard to separate him from his work with drummer Mike Clark, and they didn't really play exactly straight-ahead jazz....maybe some would even not call it jazz, but it lives in that area, of improvisation, chops, and playing the form down again and again as part of the rhythm section.
Or, you know, from a little bit more bass-centric set of ideas (which, of course aren't done in isolation...always drums, i.e., always part of the rhythm section).
I will say, on a personal level, some of the best sets I ever played live on with, as it happened, as part of a quintet gig (actually, just playing off a rock band which morphed into kind of a series of jams, really, but not indulgent...we were filling up some time on stage and basically playing the whole band off into a set break...the band itself was just drums, lead singer/rhythm (acoustic) guitar, bass guitar, and regular guitar, and me doing acoustic piano, Hammond, and Rhodes piano...
doing some basically crap music, IMHO, which drew a small crowd, I guess...enough to keep us getting booked, but everyone except for the singer/songwriter/acoustic guitar strummer were and still are in my town, some of the better players around my town...present company excluded! so, as needed, we just let the lead singer/songwriter go do his business, and get to TCB as a quartet...guitar, drums, bass guitar, and organ), happened to be with a very good bass guitarist. Eventually the "crowd" started to like our instrumental work better than the stuff with vocals.
Like this bass guitar cat had played sessions in LA studios, which, for a tiny little cow town like Portland, is a pretty big deal. I spent my years in NYC, of course, but at the time I was there, I was like eighteen or twenty years old, so I couldn't play shit, and was just meeting the name pianists I could when they were playing their own jobs, talking their ears off, and learning stuff from whoever would give me lessons if I had the dough, or just watch over their shoulder and bug them with my music nerd shit. I could play a bit, but mostly just blues or R&B, gospel, and whatever jazz I'd put together from recordings, but I couldn't hang with some cat calling "Actual Proof.....one two one two three hunh!" nor did I know more than a handful of standards. Like maybe a dozen or so, at best, and, no I couldn't play even that small handful in more than one key. I was what one would call I no-playing sumbitch! About my level was just playing open jams at Manny's Car Wash and places like that, you know, blues jams, on keys while I was getting my stuff together.
Playing much more Hammond at the time, more than I am now, and of course being heavily into Don Patterson and Cap'n Jack McDuff and everybody, I didn't really like not keeping that amount of control over the rhythm section, by keeping my LH bass tight and locked in with the drums*, but they turned out to be a lot of fun, just several times over several gigs just having the bass guitar, who had huge ears, let him go and do his thing. Which led into a trio job just playing proper Hammond, with lead guitar and drums, where we could actually play and I felt I wasn't constrained by the bass player taking over what I considered *my* domain on the instrument.
*Still do, actually. But there's a lot a good bassist or bass guitar play can do that is just not something you can do on Hammond. But vice versa as well.
It can be difficult to keep the groove tight and lock in with the drummer and bassist, but easy enough to just play some more elementary stuff in RH and can still use the other manual for comping...no big deal, although it's IMHO a bit uncomfortable for this player who's kind of used to "leading from the bandstand," both in terms of dictating rhythm and harmonies, as well as doing everything else.
Much easier with piano, for example, where of course any good piano player *can* walk bass, à la Dave McKenna or anybody, really (srsly, any pianist can walk bass I ever heard of, including any name player you can name and lots of local celebrities no matter the town), but with Hammond, you're so habituated to using LH and some foot work (both feet really, including the expression pedal), that it can be a bit disconcerting. Unless you're just doing fills and stuff with some group. For me, anyway.
In those instances, he was just keeping time, basically, but it made for a better show for the audiences, I think...somehow, I think the audience can relate a bit more on a personal level if they know where the bass guitar is coming from, you know, on the stage.
Whereas with the organ people can be a bit confused....audiences as one knows often "listen" with their eyes....so they're thinking, "Huh, where'd that bassline come from!" And then you have to put on a little show pretending to be kicking bass instead of doing it the right way.
Ain't nobody got time for that shit! (I will defend using the pedals à la Jimmy McGriff or somebody else who had a pretty heavy foot, even on up tunes, but that ain't no thing!).
/* late edit: Yeah, Mr. Paul Jackson could also play with Harvey Mason!
*/Last edited by jackalGreen; 04-17-2024 at 03:03 AM.
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Thomas Morgan
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sam jones
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Lol Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Dream Theater keyboard solos are infinitely more musical than the thudding boring following the changes organ solos from back in the day.
Jordan Rudess > than .... ahem ... Jimmy Smith?
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No way
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Yeah sounds dumb, don’t it? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Come at me bro.
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Already did. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Charles Berthoud and Jimmy Smith are better than PC.
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Jimmy Smith, And Christopher Parkening is "better" than Barney Kessell? Glen Gould is "better" than Keith Jarrett? - etc.
Don't you see the nonsensical apples and oranges comparison you're making? Performance artists <> artists are two different categories.
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Easy, BEST bass players past and present:
1. Ron Carter
2. Christian McBride
3. Ray Brown
4. Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen
Honorable Mention
5. Victor Wooten
6. Charlie Haden
7. John Patitucci
8. Steve Swallow
Moderators please close this thread.
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What a stupid idiotic thing to say. You're saying because he can move his fingers faster (not sure if that's even true, I doubt it is) he's a more advanced instrumentalist? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
You're really showing your stupidity.
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You're showing your stupidity if you can't hear how clearly Charles's music is better organized and more effective because of it. It isn't only using faster rhythms. He has a better command of rhythm and melody and harmony. Therefore, he's a more advanced musician. That was easy lol.
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Woah... please, let's avoid name calling! Mr. Smith is certainly not dumb but prone to hyperbole at times. I just don't think terms like "better," "more advanced," etc., apply for the reasons I gave earlier.
Mr. Berthoud appears to be a fine musician, but can he improvise spontaneously at a high level, or accompany others who are doing so? If so, it's not apparent from his YouTube channel fare - I mean, this thread is about jazz bass players, not bass players in general.
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Erm, if that's the case it was posted in the wrong subforum. The subforum where it has been posted implies that it's about bass players in general, excluding those who play jazz (exclusively)... Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Yep. Charles is good. But how would he sound if he were playing upright, improvising most of the music, and supporting others in a trad style? We dunno. Gonna drop this argument. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Is that significant? I haven't paid attention to exactly where threads are posted - in which subforum - and have not seen any threads moved because they were posted in the "wrong" subforum. Originally Posted by RJVB
Furthermore, except for maybe Jimmy Smith (the forum rebel), everyone who posted in this thread has listed jazz players as their favorite bass player. No one has elected influential bass players such as Gary Karr, James Jamerson, or other players who don't play jazz, e.g., most of the musicians on lists like this one:
RollingStone's 50 Greatest Bassists of All Time
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I'd hope so (or else what's the point of the subforums), and a priori threads are only moved if the OP either asks it or (supposedly) if Dirk thinks it should. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Heh, I already got the feeling my posts weren't creating any ripples (not that I mind)Furthermore, except for maybe Jimmy Smith (the forum rebel), everyone who posted in this thread has listed jazz players as their favorite bass player.
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Oh, I stand corrected, I just went back and saw your post that mentioned "other style" bassists. And I see that Christian did too. Sorry, it's a long thread... Originally Posted by RJVB
Heh, I already got the feeling my posts weren't creating any ripples (not that I mind)
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