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Why I'm asking is-it seems to me that the most popular style of jazz with the general public aound my part of the world is Dixie, or at least dixie-influenced. Well, at least I think of it as Dixie-Won't you come home, Bill Bailey, All of Me, Hello Dolly-that kind of stuff. Where there's some singing and some solo'ing.
This clip shows you EXACTY what I mean
How do you, as jazz guitarists, view this style of music? Do you even consider it Jazz, as you know it, or is it like bubblegum pop to you?
Personally, I think it's the style that I enjoy playing the most- the audience love it and it's fun to play.Last edited by billkath; 04-24-2010 at 07:00 AM.
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04-24-2010 06:52 AM
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It is a part of the history and contributed greatly to all that came next.
One cool aspect of Dixieland music that happens less frequently these days is the use of overlapping melodic improvisations from several players simultaneously.
Tenor banjo was often used in the guitar chordal role. It is better suited to keep up with the loud brass instruments without the amplifier stack that came later.
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That's the bit I love best-everyone improvising at the same time, whilst at the same time the melody of the song is not lost.
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that's interesting you say that--it's not big in the states at all.
I love a lot of the tunes that came from that era, but I trace my jazz roots a little idfferently, and dixie isn't really a part of them.
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Would it be fair to say that its not big in the Northern States? I notice you're in Chicago. Would it be more of a Southern thing-Louisiana and around that area? Or have you all just moved on from there?
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I'm in Southern Calif. and when I go to Disneyland (which is pretty seldom and it's been years) my favorite things there are the Jazz guitarist and the Dixieland Band.
It's on my list to understand the roles each instrument has when they have multiple instruments doing improv at the same time. I can hear that it's not just complete free form but that each musician has a role to consider at the same time as they are improvising. I just have analyzed it and classified it in my head yet.
I want to incorporate that Dixieland like multiple instruments simultaneously improvising within boundaries in my own compositions.
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Mr. B,
It is the style and period that Louis Armstrong emerged from and Buddy Bolden got lost in.
Many recent musicians seem to believe jazz started with bebop.
How do you draw the lines and branches for yourself?
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Next time you plant a tree without roots, let me know how it does. Even if you don't like Dixieland or play that particular style, it supported much of what came after; Bebop was a way for those with exceptional chops to weed out the less "technically proficient" and it got away from dixieland/Swing, but it is not a separate animal. I don't have any desire to play that style or pretend that I'm some bye-gone era, but I try to recognize and acknowledge all that has come before. I'm in Chicago too, and I don't think it's a Northern/Southern difference at all; it just has a limited popularity regardless.
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I just thought of something else.....(limited brain capacity); look at the music of Jimmy Wyble. He shows great respect for Dixieland and swing in his multi-voice improv and compositions, yet his music is both modern-sounding and challenging technically (keep the boppers happy!!).
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Wasn't this something Mingus did a lot of? I hear it in his records, and I'm sure he's said it in interview himself (tho not necessarily linking it with dixieland roots explicitly). Agreed tho, I'd love to get something like this going one day.
Originally Posted by fep
For me, I'm interested in all jazz. Although compositionally, and performance-wise, I'm probably more into cool jazz, modal jazz, and latin/world fusions, I'm in this for the long haul and love to learn about as much of the tradition as possible.
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Absolutely!!! You can hear it in a lot of Mingus' work; great respect for Duke, Dixie, New Orleans funeral dirges, Delta blues, but with his "right now" touch to everything he wrote. Good point.
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Anybody see a connection with Ornette Coleman? I know he's not everyone's cup of tea, but his "harmolodics" idea, that everyone is simultaneously improvising the melody the harmony and the rhythm always reminded me of Dixieland, even if it didn't sound like it.
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billkath,
In the USA, folks who love this music tend to call it "Traditional"
or 'Trad' Jazz. "Dixie" is a word that tends to indicate a rhythm-impaired
white imitation and for many (here) carries connotations of the worst aspects of Southern culture. I'm just reporting, not putting a dog in the fight.
Look up Johnny St. Cyr, the New Orleans rhythm great who played
a six-string mostly guitar-tuned banjo for the likes of Jelly Roll Morton.
Immortal & masterful.
My personal opinion: if you aren't steeped in this stuff (swing too)
you don't know what you don't know about jazz.
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+1 Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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wasn't dissing it y'all! I respect the roots, just ain't my bag to listen to on a regular basis, outside of louie and a few others. Plus, jseaberry, if jazz is a tree, it's got several trunks. And honestly, I do think jazz, as it exists today, started with bebop. I honestly think Charlie Parker could have existed without Louis Armstrong, but that's another arguement for another day!
My biggest influences come from tin pan alley and bebop. It's a decidedly more "northern" approach i guess-- my thing is different, that's all. Gypsy jazz doesn't move me either--shoot me!
Jazz is a huge music--you don't have to like all of it. I don't like Elvis and The Rolling Stones either! I'm in trouble now!!!!
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Now you got me scratching my tiny head: charlie Parker was born in 1920; what was he playing in Kansas City (not Northern, now, remember, Kansas was undecided about being a slave territory), played with a number of bands before he went to NYC; what was he playing and where did it come from? He had to have had some background in something if he helped develop bebop as an escape from something else? What was it?
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J--
I need more smiley's, I'm trying to be funny, because I realize I've dug myself a hole! But truly, jazz started for me with Charlie. I understand things came before, and I don't doubt their influence or their importance, it's just Parker was the man who started making the music I personally love.
And to be honest totally though, I was more thinking rabbit's definition--i think of grey haired white men in red and white striped hats and a tenor banjo when I hear the term "dixieland." I guess (and partially becaise I don't listen to it much) I've never heard Armstron's music called dixieland...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-24-2010 at 07:08 PM.
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Naw, Pal, no holes dug; you just got me thinking about the comment that you thought Parker could have lived w/o Armstrong, but even if he could, I would NEVER recommend to a student that they pick a point in a line of music's development and start from there w/o looking at where it came from, and I don't think you were saying that either. Frankly, the one I think sounds most like he just came from somewhere else with no ties to the past is Allan Holdsworth!!! Everyone else I can think of, you hear ties to the past, even Ornette and the Texas blues.
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any serious student of jazz learns at least a few things about New Orleans jazz.
the guitar in American jazz took off with Charlie Christian who played swing and early bop. jazz guitar took off (as much as jazz anything did that is) after Charlie.
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It's my least favorite to listen to, but I respect the huge debt all jazz owes it. This is where the groove came from. This was jazz that was trying to connect with people, before it got all cerebral and deep. I love the guys who can mix modern stuff with the New Orleans influence, like Mingus did. It will always be a huge influence on every generation of jazz musicians. I hear it in the work of many of today's top jazzers.
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Parker joined Jay McShann's group in 1938. They were a swing band, although I'm sure that many of the members were familiar with the older style. I think that the biggest difference is that the rhythm section in the swing bands were more supple than the "Dixie" bands, bigger drum sets, string bass instead of tuba, guitar instead of banjo. Originally Posted by jseaberry
Brad
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First of all, it's true that you are better off calling it Trad Jazz in the states; long sad story best left at that. This music has a universal appeal, maybe due to the many sources it draws on. This photo, taken on a steamy summer day in Jackson Square where the band in residence was working up a second-line sweat, shows a toddler dancing to the beat...made me wish I had a camcorder!
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The reason that the rhythm section changed is that Dixieland bands were not generally stationary!!!
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Miles Davis' take on Louis Armstrong, "Pops said it all."
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Here in Australia we also call it Trad. The first jazz I ever learnt was when I was 16 and a banjo player gave me the chords to Darktown Strutters' Ball. It was the rhythm and the energy of those bands that got me interested in jazz. As a guitarist I would find it extremely boring to be in that role but I think guitarists have a slightly different timeline. Really we have pre- and post- electric eras.
The main thing about our post-electric era is that most of it developed after 1950 when the small combo took over from the bigger band. Our role changed partly because people could hear our single-string playing and partly because economics allowed a band to cut the piano player and have a guitarist instead.
In Australia Trad jazz is generally found in beer gardens on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. The audience is generally composed on non-jazz fans who might recognise "Bill Bailey" or "Saints" and that's about all.
While we all acknowledge the birth of jazz, that doesn't mean we need to play it. If I was a Rock player I wouldn't be playing Chuck Berry and Bill Haley 90% of the time, would I?
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