The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Fiddle.

    I don’t dare say violin.


    I like trying new instruments. I figured I already wiggle my fingers how hard could it be?


    It is so difficult. I can recognise Old MacDonald and My Bonnie. I frighten birds.


    I can’t tremolo with my left while bowing with my right. The angle is tough and my brain is old.


    Any tips?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I wish I did. Or someone did. It's the same for me.

  4. #3
    I put this together. Bloody fifths tuning.

    Fiddle-screenshot-2022-05-28-7-52-15-pm-png

  5. #4

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    Cma6 diminished in dyads

    (G&D Strings) G E / G# F / A G / B G# / C A //

    (D&A Strings) D B / E C / F D / G E / G# F //

    (A&D Strings) A G / B G# / C A / D B / E C //

    and in 3 notes

    (G&D&A Strings) G# D B / A E C / B F D / C G E / D G# F //

    (D&A&E Strings) E A G / F B G# / G C A / G# D B / A E C //

    Other voicings possible.....

    Coming to cello after 15 or so years playing guitar, I tried as much as possible to integrate my guitar knowledge on the cello. Chord study was very helpful to intonation especially when we already know what they should sound like.

    Feel free to send a p.m. if you would like to set up a moment to discuss harmony in 4 string 5th tuning.

  6. #5
    That's interesting Bako.

    Thanks

    I'll muddle along and bend your ear if I get hung up.

  7. #6

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    I used to play a bit of fiddle until arthritis in my neck brought a halt to the practise.
    If you can play snooker then it's the same as using a cue except your elbow is in the air.
    5ths are good because you can play an octave over 2 strings.
    A 4 note arpeggio on 2 strings.
    In fact I find alto licks sit easier on fiddle than guitar.
    I learnt Scrapple on fiddle. So much easier.

    The scale of the fiddle is equal to the 12th fret of the guitar to the bridge.
    So it is half the scale of the guitar. The open strings on the fiddle are, bass to treble, G D A E. Which is the mirror image to the strings on the guitar. So chords on the fiddle are mirror image of the lower 4 strings on guitar. Same applies to Mandolin as noted by Grahambop.
    Last edited by ColMc52; 05-29-2022 at 05:52 AM. Reason: Adding information.

  8. #7

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    You could also try the mandolin, it’s the same tuning as a violin, and there are several mandolin websites showing jazz chords etc.

  9. #8

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    Can relate. I tried it once for a month or so, but the results were, if anything, worse that my equally fruitless attempts to play the clarinet, like my sibs and my dad. The problem was the sounds - a purely technical term, here. Banshee-esque shrieks and wailings at pitches nowhere to be found in any earthly tonal system - only my physical isolation at the time prevented my incarceration as a public nuisance, if not outright menace. My subsequent electrified fuzzgrindy howlings on guitar were angelic choirs by comparison.Everything is relative.

  10. #9

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    The problem was the sounds - a purely technical term, here. Banshee-esque shrieks and wailings at pitches nowhere to be found in any earthly tonal system - only my physical isolation at the time prevented my incarceration as a public nuisance, if not outright menace.
    ,

    When I started playing cello in my 30's, I could immediately cover a lot of music playing pizzicato due to prior experience with guitar and bass guitar.
    The bow was another story, I was manifesting all kinds of unintended harmonics, subharmonics and points in between. At first I would feel a sense of despair every 3-7 seconds when this happened. After a few frustrating weeks, I decided to unravel the puzzle of how to produce such sounds on purpose. The theory being that if I knew what caused them to occur I could simply choose to do something different. This turned out to be a breakthrough revelation for me. To date I have neither been incarcerated or stopped playing with a bow but full disclosure, cello is slightly less lethal than violin/fiddle.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    ,

    When I started playing cello in my 30's, I could immediately cover a lot of music playing pizzicato due to prior experience with guitar and bass guitar.
    The bow was another story, I was manifesting all kinds of unintended harmonics, subharmonics and points in between. At first I would feel a sense of despair every 3-7 seconds when this happened. After a few frustrating weeks, I decided to unravel the puzzle of how to produce such sounds on purpose. The theory being that if I knew what caused them to occur I could simply choose to do something different. This turned out to be a breakthrough revelation for me. To date I have neither been incarcerated or stopped playing with a bow but full disclosure, cello is slightly less lethal than violin/fiddle.
    Yes! Cello has a similar scale length, and I love the toothy tones. Almost bought one when my favorite store had one, but another archtop won out in the end. Budgets - what are they for? Oh, yeah - they make it possible to continue sleeping indoors. Got it!

  12. #11
    Any tremolo tips?

  13. #12

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    Practice vibrato away from the instrument. It's friggin hard to get your left hand to be able to do that. Just put your hand in the posture for playing and get used to the motion of vibrato. I studied upright bass in college. The motion is different but the principle is the same. These instruments are very left hand intensive, it's friggin hard, but once you get it it's nice. Remember, if it sounds bad, it's almost always poor left hand pitch, don't let your left hand trick your right hand. Vibrato is where you find the pitch and then roll it back and back up to pitch quickly. Also practice varying the speed of the vibrato. Best of luck.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Any tremolo tips?
    Yes: learn to play notes cleanly first (tremolo done with the right hand btw, in my book, unless you mean a very specific kind of vibrato from the 16thC or so).

    Violin has a very steep learning curve, even with a teacher - in fact, even with a teacher who's accustomed to teaching adults. If you really want to learn it on your own I'd start by taking off the chinrest and forcing yourself to play "baroque style". Imagine the classical ballet 1st arm position

    Fiddle-img_1006-jpg

    rotate your left arm about 90° around the upper arm and your left hand should fall about exactly at the heel of the peghead (on violin index and thumb are aligned; that heel is your reference point for 1st position). Your right hand needs to turn just a little to get the bow arm in an appropriate position where you use the weight of your arm to guide pressure onto the strings (modulated via the right index; the pinky serves as the counter lever; the bow itself is held by thumb and middle finger). There should never be a pronounced bend at the wrist, and all changes in movement come from the wrist (or even the fingers), NOT the shoulders (that big pectorial muscle should be working as little as possible).
    This is as close I can get to a succinct description of Enrico Gatti's teaching on this subject, which IMHO is both the most ergonomical playing position but also the one that should be easiest to learn as an adult because you're not fighting anything. Keeping your head free means you're not creating any additional tensions by clamping down on the violin with your chin, and also prevents your from acquiring a skewed position where you look along the fingerboard. It's tempting to look at your strings like so many guitarists do (esp. since you can see your left hand fingers and which string you're playing) but DON'T.
    Practice long, drawn-out strokes, first using your arm weight to make the loudest just-not-screeching sound (on open strings). Try to keep the sound constant at first, from heel to tip. Then practise modulating it, starting with crescendoes.

    If you want to get somewhere, take it slow. Master playing in 1st position first (and I mean position along the neck; your 4th finger will be playing D, A, E, B). Once you're there you can put back the chinrest and adjust your position so you can hold the violin without creating tension and still keeping your head as straight as possible. You're actually using your jaw, not your chin!! (I'd find a chinrest that sits over the tailpiece, or IIRC a guarneri style one). But try not to unlearn NOT fixing the violin!

  15. #14

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    The movement of left hand vibrato is very much like in classical guitar vibrato except that there's no need to pull on the string. Violin vibrato is around the actual pitch, not unlike what I've seen slide guitar players do.

    It also should be controlled, not parkinsonian; you're playing a bowed instrument, not a vibraphone. So learn to play well intonated notes first, for instance with scales (simple ones, all notes in order without worrying about fingers). Hear the note in your head, envision where it is on the fingerboard given the position you're in, put your finger there, play - and correct if necessary until you get it right. If you have that mastered, in scales and actual music, you can start practising vibrato. I'd start with long notes in scales, starting the vibrato slowly and subtly at about half the note's duration. Increase tempo and/or amplitude, then diminish it to end on the actual note before moving on to the next.

  16. #15

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    My violin teacher was a graduate of the Julliard School.
    She said not to bother about vibrato at first, there are too many other techniques to work on. Correct hand position and shape for both hands.
    Like a teacher's advice on chinrests and shoulder rests.
    Playing in tune will take months if not years.
    But whatever. It's a really cool instrument. In fact it's one of the only man made contraptions that was perfected 300yrs ago and has never been bettered.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMc52
    In fact it's one of the only man made contraptions that was perfected 300yrs ago and has never been bettered.
    This depends on whom you ask. As you know, almost all good enough violins were "improved" around the turn of the 19th century (or maybe later even, I forget), converted from what we now call "baroque violins" to "modern violins". A priori that involved "only" replacing the neck (for one with a steeper angle), the bass bar and sound post (for heavier duty ones), the fingerboard (longer) and the saddle (higher).

  18. #17

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    Whatever, the design of the body was perfected 300yrs ago. That's where that sweet sound comes from.
    Have you ever heard the xmas carrol called The First Know All ?

  19. #18

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    Hark the Herald Expert Sings?

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Yes: learn to play notes cleanly first (tremolo done with the right hand btw, in my book, unless you mean a very specific kind of vibrato from the 16thC or so).

    Violin has a very steep learning curve, even with a teacher - in fact, even with a teacher who's accustomed to teaching adults. If you really want to learn it on your own I'd start by taking off the chinrest and forcing yourself to play "baroque style". Imagine the classical ballet 1st arm position

    Fiddle-img_1006-jpg

    rotate your left arm about 90° around the upper arm and your left hand should fall about exactly at the heel of the peghead (on violin index and thumb are aligned; that heel is your reference point for 1st position). Your right hand needs to turn just a little to get the bow arm in an appropriate position where you use the weight of your arm to guide pressure onto the strings (modulated via the right index; the pinky serves as the counter lever; the bow itself is held by thumb and middle finger). There should never be a pronounced bend at the wrist, and all changes in movement come from the wrist (or even the fingers), NOT the shoulders (that big pectorial muscle should be working as little as possible).
    This is as close I can get to a succinct description of Enrico Gatti's teaching on this subject, which IMHO is both the most ergonomical playing position but also the one that should be easiest to learn as an adult because you're not fighting anything. Keeping your head free means you're not creating any additional tensions by clamping down on the violin with your chin, and also prevents your from acquiring a skewed position where you look along the fingerboard. It's tempting to look at your strings like so many guitarists do (esp. since you can see your left hand fingers and which string you're playing) but DON'T.
    Practice long, drawn-out strokes, first using your arm weight to make the loudest just-not-screeching sound (on open strings). Try to keep the sound constant at first, from heel to tip. Then practise modulating it, starting with crescendoes.

    If you want to get somewhere, take it slow. Master playing in 1st position first (and I mean position along the neck; your 4th finger will be playing D, A, E, B). Once you're there you can put back the chinrest and adjust your position so you can hold the violin without creating tension and still keeping your head as straight as possible. You're actually using your jaw, not your chin!! (I'd find a chinrest that sits over the tailpiece, or IIRC a guarneri style one). But try not to unlearn NOT fixing the violin!
    This is a very generous post of information despite my stupid question. I meant Vibrato not Tremelo (thanks Jimmy Smith). However this is very helpful in it's detail. Thanks so much. The bowing pressure, balance and grip as well as emphasising 1st position is food for thought.

    Still screeching but still at it.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    This is a very generous post of information despite my stupid question.


    Still screeching but still at it.
    You're welcome! I miss violin playing; helping others as I can is a nice trip down memory lane for me

    And there are no stupid questions, only dumb answers

    BTW, do you sing - and with that I mean "full lung", letting it all come out without forcing (as one would in a gospel choir I guess)? The singing metaphor is really appropriate for a bowed instrument, and this "full lung" experience what you should be aiming for. Put your violin on your shoulder (collar bone, more precisely), take a deep breath, place the bow at the frog on the A string feeling the hair and rosin bite into the string under the weight of your arm and then let go while you exhale. Repeat this a couple of times maintaining a steady screech/scratch up to the tip (and a nice linear motion of the bowing stroke), and then reduce the weight of your arm. Don't lift (just) your shoulder or (just) your elbow to do so, imagine your entire arm becomes lighter. This is something you can practise without instrument, almost like Qi Gong exercises. I'd suggest to get a good feeling of all this with downstrokes first, and only then throw in the upstrokes. With those, you inhale of course. You'll see that the tricky part is going to be to remove weight gradually so as to maintain a proper sound while you approach the frog. At some point while you progress you will want to work on smooth changes in bowing direction but don't bother with that initially (just keep it in the back of your mind).
    Of course, at some point you'll also want to uncouple up/down strokes from in/ex haling but again, that should come naturally.

    I've taught adults and getting to learn this kind of relaxed movement where you use just the right amount of muscle power is one of the most difficult things to acquire if you do not already use it in different contexts. This also applies to the left arm, and your chin if you're using a chinrest (the weight of the head should be more than enough to clamp the violin down!).
    You may know something similar from guitar playing; playing barrés is best done using your left arm weight as much as possible to apply the necessary pressure, rather than your left thumb. No barrés on violin (for now) but there too vise-like gripping is to be shunned; think of the thumb as the right hand pinky of a fingerpicker who anchors his hand on the top with that finger. (Of course, if you don't use a chinrest the thumb is also what holds the violin up ).
    Last edited by RJVB; 06-28-2022 at 06:26 AM.

  22. #21
    I'll try this full breath.

    Thanks again so much.