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  1. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post

    No. Henry Cow were elfless, and they had Marxism.

    I do not see a link between minimalism and prog. Minimalism was a reaction against atonalism, while prog was a move away from simplicity towards complexity.

    But yes, '80s KC adopted minimalist ideas, just as '70s prog had adopted romanticism. Prog always depended on what we used to call serious music.
    I dunno I think prog is either a broad church or it’s heavily defined around the styles of the most influential bands, Genesis, Yes, early KC, ELP etc. But I get the feeling that most of these bands did not feel they were in a genre at the time while now looking back they seem like they definitely are. A thing called prog, as opposed to progressive.

    in terms of progressive music, most of the stuff I really like is in the margins of this music, mid 70s Joni, Kate Bush, Bowie, John Martyn the stuff I’ve posted and so on, rather than prog in the sense of Yes.

    I would associate romanticism spiritually and lyrically with the genre although I wouldn’t say the musical style of bands have much do with Mahler or whoever (Mahler is the prog rock of symphonists after all) - I would say I hear more influences from 20th century composers. But as I say the thing that strikes me about it is that ultimately it all comes across as quite pop/rock in terms of harmony. big pop hooks and so on. It’s all based on the late Beatles and Jimmy Webb and things as others have pointed out, and I don’t hear that much importing of classical style at least in early Genesis which is the main band I’m familiar with.

    Although I think I’ve buggered my ears through years of listening to jazz.

    Re: minimalism maybe it’s convergent evolution via noodly arpeggios. Terry Riley was a direct influence on quite a few rock musicians tho.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-01-2022 at 03:13 AM.

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  3. #177

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    I should have written 'late romanticism'. I was thinking of Deep Purple's collaboration with Malcolm Arnold and the orchestrated works by Procul Harum, the Moody Blues and others.

    If you had been a teenager in the mid-seventies, I think you would have held the heavily defined view of progressive rock. The youth identified with styles, as if they were movements. As Bob Stanley observed in his Yeah, Yeah Yeah: The Story of Modern Pop, if you had O-levels, you listened to prog, if you didn't you listened to metal. Some of us also indulged in the avant-garde, with hilarious results.

    Then came the New Wave, which changed everything, including Genesis and Yes.

  4. #178

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    I listened to Anna Meredith at greater length. Definitely a lot going on there, but there's no release.

    Someone mentioned elves, so I posted Björk. Da queen.

    I agree with Litterick's last post (was a prog musician teen in the 70s), though would make a clear distinction between prog and orchestrated rock.

  5. #179

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    I don't think it counts if you are actually an elf haha

    Revisiting her stuff the other day that I remembered she put out a version of Like Someone in Love on her first solo record. Forgot about that. As this is a jazz forum:


  6. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    I should have written 'late romanticism'. I was thinking of Deep Purple's collaboration with Malcolm Arnold and the orchestrated works by Procul Harum, the Moody Blues and others.


    It's more in the instrumentation. I just don't hear much of actual romantic music in that stuff. The classical reference points are more likely to be Bach on one hand, or Holst and Stravinsky on the other.

    If you had been a teenager in the mid-seventies, I think you would have held the heavily defined view of progressive rock. The youth identified with styles, as if they were movements. As Bob Stanley observed in his Yeah, Yeah Yeah: The Story of Modern Pop, if you had O-levels, you listened to prog, if you didn't you listened to metal. Some of us also indulged in the avant-garde, with hilarious results.

    Then came the New Wave, which changed everything, including Genesis and Yes.
    Wow, not even A levels. Life was shit in the 70s wasn't it haha?

    Looking back at early Black Sabbath now, it's surprising the number of flute solos haha. The distance between genres seems less in retrospect.

    There's definitely a Prog (lets use the capital P) template that has been the basis of successor bands, I haven't checked the dates but presumably the Steve Wilsons etc were of a similar vintage to yourself.

    These politics definitely lasted into the 90s. When I first raided my parents record collection (for stuff they didn't play much) I had no idea what genre it belonged to, so I just listened to the stuff I liked, which included a lot of Prog at various points. Later, when I was playing guitar in bands in the mid 90s, I read NME (god knows why) and got an idea of the party line on prog, which was very negative still.

    But in reality I don't think anyone actually cared apart from Rock bores. The big tribal distinctions in music were, naturally enough, to do with what was happening at the time. I'm sure loads of EDM guys had an interest in Prog, and I do know that hip-hop continues to sample Prog rock records to this day. In the guitar band world you had Soundgarden and Radiohead.

    These days - I don't think anyone cares. Annie Clarke (St Vincent) is quite happy to namecheck King Crimson and Jethro Tull and I think she's quite hip at least among millennials?

    The thing is, now no-one is tribal about music. In a way this may reflect that music is just less important. I think it's easy for people of my generation to understand how important music was culturally, because we had Kurt Cobain, but I think to understand the impact the Bowies and Cobains of this world had on young people of the time is utterly alien to gen-Z'ers.

    OTOH this has led to what I think is a very eclectic (but disparate) modern music scene So, I would say to the old Prog fans - you could say that it's testament to the unique quality the music that it continues to inspire today's musicians despite years of being terminally unfashionable for decades, and that's a good thing. The only people who seemed to hold a grudge were some of the old punks, most who seem to have almost inevitably turned into embarrassing old reactionaries. So much for the revolution.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-01-2022 at 10:02 AM.

  7. #181

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    In a very real sense, punk was always reactionary, looking back over the heads of the progressives to the fabled age of real rock music.

    But still prog survives, as you say. Maybe music does win in the end, after all the posturing is forgotten.

  8. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick View Post
    In a very real sense, punk was always reactionary, looking back over the heads of the progressives to the fabled age of real rock music.


    Well that's what it became. I like the some of the music John Lydon made after the Pistols for instance, which was often pretty interesting. It was clear he got sick of punk quite quickly.

    But still prog survives, as you say. Maybe music does win in the end, after all the posturing is forgotten.
    Maybe I'm naive. But I do think the good stuff lasts.

  9. #183

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    As a possible point of interest, I just quickly read back through this thread and in doing so, remembered how we used to "separate" straight (ie boring) from prog (hooray) rock back in the day.

    Basically, if after hearing a progression once through, you could just dive in and have at it with some Blackmore/Gilmour etc-style lead licks, it was definitely straight. This would be the case for most of the Pink Floyd tracks that I was familiar with, for example. In no way am I insinuating that you shouldn't enjoy them, by the way.

    We considered prog, (my band used to write some original stuff) pieces that required discussion and rehearsal, drumsticks being tossed at one's head in frustration, that kind of thing. It may have been a particular time sig. change, an unfamiliar chord inversion, harmony lines. Basically, anything requiring subtlety in its approach. You were going for a "bigger", far more textured sound. We're talking c. 1972, by the way, so right in the middle of it and I should have been at school (getting my O levels).

    PS Capitalization of genre names is not the norm, but do whatever you like, of course. It looks better, that's for sure.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Peter C; 08-01-2022 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C View Post
    As a possible point of interest, I just quickly read back through this thread and in doing so, remembered how we used to "separate" straight (ie boring) from prog (hooray) rock back in the day.

    Basically, if after hearing a progression once through, you could just dive in and have at it with some Blackmore/Gilmour etc-style lead licks, it was definitely straight. This would be the case for most of the Pink Floyd tracks that I was familiar with, for example. In no way am I insinuating that you shouldn't enjoy them, by the way.

    We considered prog, (my band used to write some original stuff) pieces that required discussion and rehearsal, drumsticks being tossed at one's head in frustration, that kind of thing. It may have been a particular time sig. change, an unfamiliar chord inversion, harmony lines. Basically, anything requiring subtlety in its approach. You were going for a "bigger", far more textured sound. We're talking c. 1972, by the way, so right in the middle of it and I should have been at school (getting my O levels).

    PS Capitalization of genre names is not the norm, but do whatever you like, of course. It looks better, that's for sure.

    Cheers
    Prog suits a capital letter.

    No it’s just to make it clear when I’m talking about something like what you are talking about and the Pink Floyds of this world.

    I can’t help but feel that definition might depend on one’s skills as a musician. As a teenager pretty much everything was Prog to me.

  11. #185

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    Sighted on the zoomer interwebs today.
    Prog lives!
    Most influential prog rock band-fe191f56-0e4e-4e32-a89f-54704791afd4-jpeg

  12. #186

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    ART. IMO, of course. Thanks again Christian for making them known to me.

  13. #187

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    I do enjoy Black Midi’s complete confidence and absolute conviction in delivering whatever convoluted nonsense they’ve been cooking up. I honestly think you can only do it like that in your early 20s.

    Which I suppose is the heart of prog really.

  14. #188

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    U may be right.
    Cheers, Peter (23)

  15. #189

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    Man, I love me some convoluted nonsense

  16. #190

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    Maybe not in the same league, but I always liked RUSH. This is one hell of an epic composition.


  17. #191

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    Black Country, New Road: from Cambridgeshire; classically trained; prog enough for Prog magazine; occasionally merged with Black Midi (to form Black Midi, New Road); like most contemporary British bands, they sometimes appear to be a new religious movement, but are saved from piety by irony.



  18. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound View Post
    Maybe not in the same league, but I always liked RUSH. This is one hell of an epic composition.

    I try not to like them, but I can’t help myself.

  19. #193

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    Good to keep up with Roberts doing these days

  20. #194

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    Off topic post, but have you all heard Brad Mehldau’s new prog album? Good stuff




  21. #195

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    I was sad to hear of the passing of PiL guitarist Keith Levene, whose playing I always enjoyed and found to be very creative. I was kind of surprised to hear was not only a Yes fan but actually roadied for them, and his guitar hero was Steve Howe.

    His beautiful hypnotic arpeggio pattern creates such a counterpoint to Lydon's disturbing lyrics. The dystopian sound of the late 70s... Jah Wobble's bassline is wonderful too. Check out that b2...



    Someone mentioned you can almost hear that guitar part as a variation on Howe's riff on Starship Trooper. I can hear it.

    I hear a lot of this band in Black Midi, for sure.

  22. #196

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    how come Pink Floyd is not progressive rock? Is it not progressive? Or is it not rock?

  23. #197

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    ...back to ELP...

    This is what I call progressiveness :-)


  24. #198

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    The new MGMT album 11.11.11 is interesting—def prog-adjacent. Not the typical EDM stuff one expects from the band, but more loose, almost ambient stuff. Heavily influenced by Brian Eno, of course.

    And yes PIL above—Starship Trooper Part 2. I had a few of their albums back in the day. Speaking of Brian Eno, Jan Wobble did an album of ambient stuff with him.

  25. #199

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    I know some are critical of Bill Laswell's productions of PIL and Swans, but the lineup on Album is way prog



    Additional personnel


  26. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    I know some are critical of Bill Laswell's productions of PIL and Swans, but the lineup on Album is way prog



    Additional personnel

    One hell of a line up lol. I do enjoy that album. What's that you say? An epic Vai solo? Why not?


    Apparently Johnny loved Stevie's playing on this.

    Back to Levene tho (naff off Vai, you get enough attention) - this is a gloriously odd record and IIRC an influence on Kate Bush's the Dreaming.


    This was on Top of the flipping Pops, m8.

    Long live Pronk. Or is it Pug?