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MacDonald played with KC on some of their later albums and also played with quite a few proggies in later years, including Keith Emerson and Greg Lake. He is still out there and seems to be enjoying doing his own thing.
Originally Posted by sgcim
Yes we thought he "sold out"--Foreigner was actually a pretty good pop band back in the day, but no KC. But he left after making 3 very successful albums with them. He probably made more $$ from those albums than from every other job in his entire career.
Yes I was gonna point out how they have continually migrated toward extreme technique....Lark's Tongue in Aspic was mind-blowing, then the albums with Bruford and Levin and Belew, which were even more highly technical, and now their recent stuff, which is just outrageously complex.
FWIW I think Fripp has said he's not a "great" guitarist, just a guy who can flat pick on the electric very well. I think he sells himself short...
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11-21-2021 05:40 PM
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BTW we debated endlessly what was and wasn't prog back in the day. It's all we had to do, since we weren't getting dates on Saturday nights...
Prog attributes:
Complicated, pretentious lyrics
A tendency to have thematic albums that address "big" problems like the nature of evil or Armageddon or draw inspiration from Tolkien or the Bible or graduate-level college history textbooks
Complex rhythms
Virtually always feature a synth and/or Mellotron
Virtuosic playing, often just to "show off"
Hirsutism and lots of bell bottoms
Appealed mainly to young men with bad complexions and greasy hair, virtually never to women
The Prog Pentateuch, AKA gateway drugs to being a prog rat:
ELP Brain Salad Surgery
Yes Close to the Edge
King Crimson The Court of the Crimson King
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
Genesis Selling England by the Pound
Start with these, buy everything they ever put out, then can branch out from there.
Then there were the fellow travelers, or prog-adjacent:
Rick Wakeman (one of the Patriarchs)
Todd Rundgren (lesser prophet)
The Nice (which begat ELP)
Jethro Tull
Traffic
Fairport Convention
Soft Machine
Moody Blues
Tomita
Kansas (Don Kirshner Prog)
Styx (Prog Lite)
Some might even throw in Deep Purple or Led Zepp, but they were def Hard Rock and more blues-based, which was almost anathema to true prog rock.
Zappa of course was progressive, but he was his own thing. Humor was not something generally accepted in prog. His mid-70's albums with MOI were most def jazz fusion, but as far as prog...that would be debatable.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 11-21-2021 at 06:55 PM.
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Doctor: Your essay is very accurate but my complexion was never spotty, only my reputation.
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My theory of Prog is it is more classically influenced than blues influenced.
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Of course it all goes back to the Beatles. They set the stage for highly complex songs presented as a whole album, with a theme, and with unusual instrumentations and orchestrations. In terms of musical technique the boys were limited, a problem which prog would fix very quickly as virtuoso instrumentalists ala Hendrix and Clapton and Keith Emerson became famous.
Prog musicians would also one-up each other with classical references, to the point that some like Emerson would even compose full-blown concerti or record with a full orchestra. (If on a budget the Mellotron would have to do.)
And of course the tours...how many trucks did ELP go out with in the late 70's? 40? 50?
It got to be too much. And so there was a backlash with the punk movement. Some proggers like Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel found success in more pop-oriented directions. Some like Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman just went underground for about 2 decades LOL. (Slight digression: I can't tell you how disappointed I was in some of their late 70's output...ELP's Love Beach...Rick Wakeman's Disco Rhapsody...sad...)
King Crimson was the interesting one. I remember after they broke up in '75 or '76 Fripp started playing with all kinds of avant-garde people, of course famously Brian Eno and David Bowie, but also Daryl Hall, the Roches, Blondie. When he reformed KC with Adrian Belew, we didn't know what to expect, but I think it's safe to say we were blown away. To go from dark, heavy prog like Red to completely modern and unconventional music you could dance to...well, it was quite an experience. The concert I went to in November 1982 was life-changing for me, in part because it was my first date with Cathy, my muse and the only girl I have ever met who liked (some) prog rock AND Frank Zappa. Still miss her.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 11-21-2021 at 06:57 PM.
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Goblin was a big influence on Opeth
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Bingo--hence it attracted "classically trained" keyboardists and guitarists who were more interested in Segovia and Jim Hall than Muddy Waters and Hubert Sumlin. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Very few guitarists in prog really came from the blues rock tradition. The Brits like Fairport Convention and Jethro Tull often drew their inspiration from folk music. I was always surprised how Tull became so popular among the prog crowd, since they really were a blues/folk band at base, but for some reason they were considered prog, while Led Zepp was not.
Yeah, I know, splitting hairs. I paid very little attention to Led Zepp in the 70's, other than what was played on the radio. Now of course I'd consider them "progressive", but they were a bit too bluesy and hard-edged for most prog rats, and let's face it Robert Plant was a bit too showy and popular with the ladies for our taste.
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There are some piss poor song lyrics in all genres. "Close to the edge, down by the river" works cuz it fits the music, rather like "I get a kick out of you".
Rhythms are only complex if you hear them that way. A 7/8 or a 5/4 can sound perfectly natural, to the point that you're not even counting.
Steve Hackett never showed off, always played (brilliantly) for the song. There were many other examples.
My girlfriend at the time when Selling England was released wore that LP out, though she did wear bell-bottoms and didn't shave her legs, so there's some truth to that.
I'll refrain from comment about Shady Side Of The Moon.
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Peter: You comments about Pink Floyd are interesting.
When I revisited their music after I had learned jazz I was angry at myself for being taken in by them.
The only reason I suspect liking Floyd as a teenager was mild depression.
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This all checks out... apart from the Return of Giant Hogweed. Clearly meant in deadly earnest. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
There were attempts at humour?Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2021 at 07:51 PM.
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Focus was a big influence on...
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Oh I don't know, I think since I learned jazz I appreciate those Rick Wright chords much more all the way through Dark Side. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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This is stupid and reminds me of Battles for some reason Originally Posted by Stevebol
Which come to think of it is super prog, Math rock is another splinter off the old prog log.
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TBH a lot those musicians sounded like they were counting to me. Not Phil though, or Bill. Originally Posted by Peter C
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I used to like some of Focus (with Jan Akkerman). Wasn’t that keen on Hocus Pocus (mentioned above) which I believe was meant to be a parody of heavy metal. But they did some quite melodic stuff which I liked e.g:
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Just for the sake of throwing in something obscure and Finnish:
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And one other prog band, because it was formed in my home state (Virginia):
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I heard Meddle as a teenie at my parents' record shop, still partly under the spell of late 60s psychedelia (precocious child that I was) and thought far out. Kinda. But it dawned on me that once you'd separated the music from all the sonic goings on, I knew what most of the chords were without grabbing my Strat. I hadn't received any formal music tuition so something was amiss, I surmised. Moving Waves was released soon after, so I never bothered with Floyd again after that. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Speaking of Focus, Hocus Pocus was a friggin send-up. I saw Akkerman deliberately fluff his solo at a London college gig c. 1973. You guys know this is not what we're about, right?
Sorry to "disappoint" anyone, but Tasavallan Presidentti were not completely obscure to me. I have to confess that the Happy the Man track was and I really dug it. Straight into my YT watch later folder. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Peter C
BTW, the first time I heard Tasavallan Presidentti they were opening for Focus at University College, London, I think it must have been sometime in the autumn of 1972 (I lived in London for a year between high school and college). I went to see Focus and had never even heard of Tasavallan Presidentti. Both blew me away.Last edited by jbernstein91; 11-21-2021 at 10:32 PM.
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They said that when you went to a Canterbury band concert, you'd just see a sea of guys in white shirts, who were math, science or English majors. Not one woman in sight.
Looking back, I guess you could say Zappa kind of started things out, because he was before KC, but he was never one of those horny guys that wrote about Armageddon and the Hobbits; he left that up to KC and Gentle Giant.
I read The Show That Never Ends: The Rise and Fall of Prog Rock by David Weigel, a Washington Post reporter, and he begins the book by bringing us on a Prog Cruise with some members of Prog bands like Yes, and it's an intentionally funny/sad story of some members of the band getting so fed up with the aging Prog fans, that they refuse to come out of their cabins to say hello to any of their fans!
The punk reaction to Prog. followed by the hip-hop movement has resulted in generations of tone deaf kids. When I was a HS music teacher, I was able to prove this with 15 years of having the students try to construct pitch maps of any melodies they knew.
About 99.8% of them were unable to grasp the concept of higher and lower pitch, and the .02 who could, had experience with music in their church, with their parents, etc...
I'd get the .02% to learn an instrument, sing in the chorus, or take guitar class.
The rest of them had to be trained to differentiate betwixt a note going up or down, and some never got it straight.
I can only see this getting worse in the future, as music is eliminated in the schools due to emphasis on the STEM subjects.
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national Health has one great tune that featured Jimmy Hastings on flute. He played a burning solo that I couldn't imagine any prog musician being capable of playing and/or conceiving of, without extensive jazz experience. Sure enough, when I did a search on him, he had played in many jazz groups, and was WW professor at a prestigious college in the UK. Originally Posted by Litterick
Dave Stewart must have played keyboard in half of those bands you mentioned.
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The thing about a band like If was, they were playing entire songs in one complex time signature, and it was so natural, you didn't notice it unless you counted. On top of that, they could play swinging/funky solos in those time signatures without a hint that they were uncomfortable. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
They lasted about 3 or 4 years, and then they became an awful hard rock band as each member quit the band.
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"Looking back, I guess you could say Zappa kind of started things out, because he was before KC, but he was never one of those horny guys that wrote about Armageddon and the Hobbits; he left that up to KC and Gentle Giant."
Good thing my drink was sitting on the table when I read that, otherwise it mighta been sprayed on it
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I saw Jimmy Hastings a couple of times at Ronnie Scotts. Very good straight-ahead tenor player as I recall, with a great tone. Originally Posted by sgcim
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The main reason I liked Focus was Jan Akkerman, he was an amazingly talented improvising rock guitarist. Also a competent lutenist, back then that must have been pretty unusual!
Anyway listen to what he does here at 2:50, utterly beautiful melodic playing and also I think some jazz influence, the ‘raked’ runs remind me of Barney Kessel a bit.
Later at 8:00 he takes an incredibly inventive long solo.
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