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Yeah, Thick As a Brick.
I don’t know of anything else in rock that approaches that long compositional form, and with that incredible musicianship to boot.
Incomparable. Prove me wrong.
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11-21-2021 12:50 AM
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I don't see why not.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Acid rock? Originally Posted by Clint 55
Gilmour once said that people assumed that the band had consumed a “quart jar of acid” before taking the stage.
Given the performance that I witnessed after Meddle came out, I would say “no way!” The band was way too “together”, as the hippies used to say. They would have flubbed if under the influence of LSD.
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I bet that was a great concert!
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Satan Doll will be the name of my Progressive Death Metal band. But my loyalties are to Canterbury: Soft Machine, Caravan, Hatfield and the North, Gilgamesh, National Health, Matching Mole and many others. Prog without pomp, and with jazz. Originally Posted by Peter C
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IMHO the reason for playing in odd time should never be ‘look at me mum’; one thing that’s great about Zappa is the way he just put that crazy rhythmic stuff in there in a comedy song and you’d miss it if you weren’t paying attention and a muso. It’s a natural part of his musical language. Plus Zappa was coming out of black music big time, with professional musicians who could groove hard. Originally Posted by BWV
the British prog thing had a different flavour. I graduated to Zappa in any case, no surprise I was heading towards jazz
I always like what I think Peter Gabriel said about not thinking of the music he made as being ‘prog’ because it was naturally eclectic. My tendency is towards eclecticism and I always enjoyed that in 70s music. I think we are in a similar sort of space today actually.
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Well that’s the debate with yer prog heads isn’t it? Originally Posted by Clint 55
TBH for me as a teenage music listener, I never thought of any of this music as prog. I just liked what I liked. These old culture wars between the punks and the hippies were ancient history by the time I started listening to music; and time is a great filter of quality (the problem with that is you end up listening to your parents music haha).
when I was listening to Floyd and Genesis I was not yet playing guitar. So I didn’t listen to it thinking ‘oh interesting chord progressions, oh nice 7/8, great drumming, cool guitar parts’ etc, I was hearing the mood and vibe more.Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2021 at 06:01 AM.
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Close to the Edge? Tales from Topographic Oceans? Karn Evil 9? Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
(Not claiming they are 'better', but long and with terrific musicianship, yes)
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Prog
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I knew/know many people who were Floyd fans but not prog fans…. They went through a few incarnations before Meddle though, and one of those was definitely prog…. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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SBB
I liked this band the most !!!
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I doubt anybody missed it, even the non-musos. It is why the fans bought the albums. The comedy was secondary, and 'problematic' even back then. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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A 30 min trudge over Am / open G overlaid with psychedelic sound effects is not progressive rock, or progressive anything. When I was playing and auditioning a lot back then, you'd often get asked to do the Gilmour (wailing) thing. Great electric blues guitarist, by the way, but Pink Floyd don't belong in this discussion. Period.
Time signatures are (or should be) an integral part of the composition and as basic to the genre as altered harmony is in jazz. If you contrive "odd" meters of course it's going to sound pretentious, just as when you overdo the outside notes in jazz.
I once searched for a bridge "prog punk" band (the oxymoron is too obvious) and found Cardiacs. Interesting, but they probably deserve a separate discussion.
As to the most influential, I would suggest checking out this rather remarkable bare-bones home made video by a guy called Ian Tanner to see and hear Tony Banks' compositional mastery. He certainly influenced me, LOL.
Last edited by Peter C; 11-21-2021 at 05:14 PM. Reason: typo
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I was teasing Dr. Jeff since he posted a similar comment in the Kenny G. thread related to smooth jazz. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I have never meet a "real jazz aficionado".
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Nope, I’ve labelled you as a jazz snob now haha. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
TBH I am a bit. But most contemporary jazz is basically prog rock anyway, but more complicated and with less tunes, so I’m not sure what that means exactly lol.
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oops, never heard of them. Is that bad? Originally Posted by cmajor9
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wow, that was before you were born. You must have liked them Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yeah I did! Still do actually. Echoes live at Pompeii is one of my favourite things ever Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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yeah I mean I would not think to define jazz that way. Jazz isn’t easy to define but its not about the chords. TBH the whole idea of ‘progressive’ aspects of music is rooted in a specific definition of what is complex in music and that’s usually something you can write down at a push; time signatures, chords etc. The more I learn about music the less I feel that narrative reflects the history. Originally Posted by Peter C
Anyway it’s an endless pendulum. I think Bach was a prog rocker in his day, one that carried on with the prog into the pop era of fashionable Gallant composers writing simple music; the criticisms of his music from his contemporaries are the same that are levelled at prog (the parallels are fascinating actually). A few hundred years later only academics care. (Or the Ars Subtilior. Or the late Italian madrigalists etc etc.)
I don’t really personally care what prog rock is and isn’t, it seems for some it’s a strict genre, for others it’s a philosophy or approach to music.
That latter seems more interesting to me, if only because I’ve never been terribly interested in labels. I also like the eclectic and ambitious, so I’d say prog has rubbed off on me for sure even though I don’t make ‘prog rock’ music. That said I don’t like the idea that more complicated is better; music should be as simple as it must be and as complicated as it must be. Anyone expressing an inherent preference I think is failing to enjoy music on its own merits and that’s a shame.
OTOH I get annoyed at the tendency of mainstream music commentary to write the whole thing off, characterise it as unbearable, nerdy etc. I think Radiohead’s ‘denials of prog’ are kind of sad in that respect. Obviously they were weren’t prog prog like Dream Theater, but it reminds me of how factionalised music was. We seem to be beyond this now (at least to some extent.) Anyway the catch all ‘Art Rock’ is big enough to accommodate a lot of interesting stuff…
Its a paradox … ‘prog’ as a genre remains big; the whole modern guitar movement which has a serious following, starting with Vai etc, but now Govan, Plini, Periphery etc is prog to the marrow. The modern day prog bands too pack ‘em out. So despite it’s leanings towards the complex, it’s not an unpopular form… I mean it’s not jazz haha
Anyway I don’t think prog’s a dirty word in the ‘rock music mainstream’ in quite the same way as it was 20 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge, and the idea of a ‘rock music mainstream’ is pretty laughable.
Cardiacs are very interesting and probably the bloke was a genius, but more that 15m does my head in. To be honest, I have the same reaction to solo Art Tatum. Big influence on Radiohead and Blur (and Napalm Death)Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2021 at 04:13 PM.
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I like Yes, King Crimson, some Genesis and even a bit of ELP but the prog group that appealed to me most (to the extent of seeing them live quite a lot - I think it was into the mid twenties when I could no longer stand listening to Ian Andersons strained voice) was Jethro Tull.
Interesting band. Decent players rather than deliberately virtuosic and had eclectic influences. You could hear lots of celtic/folk music in their later stuff but they started out much more bluesy with even an occasional mild jazz tendency. Ian always acknowledged his debt to Roland Kirk and Tull played this one live for a long time:
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Speaking of jazz/prog crossover I must mention that the much missed Keith Tippett a leading light European Avant Garde jazz also recorded with King Crimson and was invited to join, but declined.
Keith was a one off. Can’t believe he’s gone; he’s still there in my head telling me off
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Perhaps not influential, but excellent:
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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When you saw KC, they were probably the original KC, who were anything but a virtuoso band. Other than the unison soli on 20th century Schizoid Man, they were more interested in songs, with simple, melodic improvisation. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
Then they went on the road, and some of them found out they weren't cut out for touring. Fripp was the only one left, and he made it into a hardcore virtuoso band.
I was disappointed in MacDonald, who along with Dennis Elliot (the drummer from If), sold out, and both joined Foreigner, a pop-rock band.
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Fair dos (deuce) Christian. How to define prog rock: Interesting? Challenging? Surprising? Suite-like approach? A progression of what came before?
Absolutely agree re. Cardiacs: it can get a bit too much after a while. Obviously a bit of a genius, anyway.
I think you previously alluded to a (for me, welcome) blurring of genres in some contemporary music. Well, as a spare time guitarist/composer I love some of Nir Felder's stuff, for example:
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