The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Yeah, Thick As a Brick.

    I don’t know of anything else in rock that approaches that long compositional form, and with that incredible musicianship to boot.

    Incomparable. Prove me wrong.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    But was Floyd prog?
    I don't see why not.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55 View Post
    I don't see why not.
    Acid rock?

    Gilmour once said that people assumed that the band had consumed a “quart jar of acid” before taking the stage.

    Given the performance that I witnessed after Meddle came out, I would say “no way!” The band was way too “together”, as the hippies used to say. They would have flubbed if under the influence of LSD.

  5. #29

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    I bet that was a great concert!

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C View Post

    Anyone thinking that some prog is boring (probably have only listened to Pink Floyd), how about old, flogged to death tunes like Satan Doll?
    Satan Doll will be the name of my Progressive Death Metal band. But my loyalties are to Canterbury: Soft Machine, Caravan, Hatfield and the North, Gilgamesh, National Health, Matching Mole and many others. Prog without pomp, and with jazz.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    Never liked Genesis that much

    Yes, Rush and Thick as a Brick for me

    also more recent harder edged prog-metal like Opeth (but never liked Dream Theater)

    to me prog isn’t time sigs and scales, more about a classical vibe of bigger forms and development of ideas

    always hated this pretension of odd meters = rhythmic sophistication, compared to what Jazz or Funk can do within 4/4 (and a polyrhythmic tune like Discipline is more than just odd meters)

    Yes is as foundational/influential to prog as any band
    IMHO the reason for playing in odd time should never be ‘look at me mum’; one thing that’s great about Zappa is the way he just put that crazy rhythmic stuff in there in a comedy song and you’d miss it if you weren’t paying attention and a muso. It’s a natural part of his musical language. Plus Zappa was coming out of black music big time, with professional musicians who could groove hard.

    the British prog thing had a different flavour. I graduated to Zappa in any case, no surprise I was heading towards jazz

    I always like what I think Peter Gabriel said about not thinking of the music he made as being ‘prog’ because it was naturally eclectic. My tendency is towards eclecticism and I always enjoyed that in 70s music. I think we are in a similar sort of space today actually.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55 View Post
    I don't see why not.
    Well that’s the debate with yer prog heads isn’t it?

    TBH for me as a teenage music listener, I never thought of any of this music as prog. I just liked what I liked. These old culture wars between the punks and the hippies were ancient history by the time I started listening to music; and time is a great filter of quality (the problem with that is you end up listening to your parents music haha).

    when I was listening to Floyd and Genesis I was not yet playing guitar. So I didn’t listen to it thinking ‘oh interesting chord progressions, oh nice 7/8, great drumming, cool guitar parts’ etc, I was hearing the mood and vibe more.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2021 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar View Post
    Yeah, Thick As a Brick.

    I don’t know of anything else in rock that approaches that long compositional form, and with that incredible musicianship to boot.
    Close to the Edge? Tales from Topographic Oceans? Karn Evil 9?

    (Not claiming they are 'better', but long and with terrific musicianship, yes)

  10. #34

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    Prog


  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar View Post
    Acid rock?

    Gilmour once said that people assumed that the band had consumed a “quart jar of acid” before taking the stage.

    Given the performance that I witnessed after Meddle came out, I would say “no way!” The band was way too “together”, as the hippies used to say. They would have flubbed if under the influence of LSD.
    I knew/know many people who were Floyd fans but not prog fans…. They went through a few incarnations before Meddle though, and one of those was definitely prog….

  12. #36

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    SBB
    I liked this band the most !!!


  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    IMHO the reason for playing in odd time should never be ‘look at me mum’; one thing that’s great about Zappa is the way he just put that crazy rhythmic stuff in there in a comedy song and you’d miss it if you weren’t paying attention and a muso.
    I doubt anybody missed it, even the non-musos. It is why the fans bought the albums. The comedy was secondary, and 'problematic' even back then.

  14. #38

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    A 30 min trudge over Am / open G overlaid with psychedelic sound effects is not progressive rock, or progressive anything. When I was playing and auditioning a lot back then, you'd often get asked to do the Gilmour (wailing) thing. Great electric blues guitarist, by the way, but Pink Floyd don't belong in this discussion. Period.

    Time signatures are (or should be) an integral part of the composition and as basic to the genre as altered harmony is in jazz. If you contrive "odd" meters of course it's going to sound pretentious, just as when you overdo the outside notes in jazz.

    I once searched for a bridge "prog punk" band (the oxymoron is too obvious) and found Cardiacs. Interesting, but they probably deserve a separate discussion.

    As to the most influential, I would suggest checking out this rather remarkable bare-bones home made video by a guy called Ian Tanner to see and hear Tony Banks' compositional mastery. He certainly influenced me, LOL.


    Last edited by Peter C; 11-21-2021 at 05:14 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    Wow. I think calling oneself a jazz aficionado is a quick way to make yourself instantly unpopular with every rock fan ever lol.

    After a decade or two listening to preposterously complicated post fusion jazz the thing that strikes me about the big 70s prog acts is how poppy they were. They had tunes!
    I was teasing Dr. Jeff since he posted a similar comment in the Kenny G. thread related to smooth jazz.

    I have never meet a "real jazz aficionado".

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    I was teasing Dr. Jeff since he posted a similar comment in the Kenny G. thread related to smooth jazz.

    I have never meet a "real jazz aficionado".
    Nope, I’ve labelled you as a jazz snob now haha.

    TBH I am a bit. But most contemporary jazz is basically prog rock anyway, but more complicated and with less tunes, so I’m not sure what that means exactly lol.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9 View Post
    Close to the Edge? Tales from Topographic Oceans? Karn Evil 9?

    (Not claiming they are 'better', but long and with terrific musicianship, yes)
    oops, never heard of them. Is that bad?

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    I knew/know many people who were Floyd fans but not prog fans…. They went through a few incarnations before Meddle though, and one of those was definitely prog….
    wow, that was before you were born. You must have liked them

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar View Post
    wow, that was before you were born. You must have liked them
    Yeah I did! Still do actually. Echoes live at Pompeii is one of my favourite things ever

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C View Post
    A 30 min trudge over Am / open G overlaid with psychedelic sound effects is not progressive rock, or progressive anything. When I was playing and auditioning a lot back then, you'd often get asked to do the Gilmour (wailing) thing. Great electric blues guitarist, by the way, but Pink Floyd don't belong in this discussion. Period.

    Time signatures are (or should be) an integral part of the composition and as basic to the genre as altered harmony is in jazz. If you contrive "odd" meters of course it's going to sound pretentious, just as when you overdo the outside notes in jazz.

    I once searched for a bridge "prog punk" band (the oxymoron is too obvious) and found Cardiacs. Interesting, but they probably deserve a separate discusion.

    As to the most influential, I would suggest checking out this rather remarkable bare-bones home made video by a guy called Ian Tanner to see and hear Tony Banks' compositional mastery. He certainly influenced me, LOL.


    yeah I mean I would not think to define jazz that way. Jazz isn’t easy to define but its not about the chords. TBH the whole idea of ‘progressive’ aspects of music is rooted in a specific definition of what is complex in music and that’s usually something you can write down at a push; time signatures, chords etc. The more I learn about music the less I feel that narrative reflects the history.

    Anyway it’s an endless pendulum. I think Bach was a prog rocker in his day, one that carried on with the prog into the pop era of fashionable Gallant composers writing simple music; the criticisms of his music from his contemporaries are the same that are levelled at prog (the parallels are fascinating actually). A few hundred years later only academics care. (Or the Ars Subtilior. Or the late Italian madrigalists etc etc.)

    I don’t really personally care what prog rock is and isn’t, it seems for some it’s a strict genre, for others it’s a philosophy or approach to music.

    That latter seems more interesting to me, if only because I’ve never been terribly interested in labels. I also like the eclectic and ambitious, so I’d say prog has rubbed off on me for sure even though I don’t make ‘prog rock’ music. That said I don’t like the idea that more complicated is better; music should be as simple as it must be and as complicated as it must be. Anyone expressing an inherent preference I think is failing to enjoy music on its own merits and that’s a shame.

    OTOH I get annoyed at the tendency of mainstream music commentary to write the whole thing off, characterise it as unbearable, nerdy etc. I think Radiohead’s ‘denials of prog’ are kind of sad in that respect. Obviously they were weren’t prog prog like Dream Theater, but it reminds me of how factionalised music was. We seem to be beyond this now (at least to some extent.) Anyway the catch all ‘Art Rock’ is big enough to accommodate a lot of interesting stuff…

    Its a paradox … ‘prog’ as a genre remains big; the whole modern guitar movement which has a serious following, starting with Vai etc, but now Govan, Plini, Periphery etc is prog to the marrow. The modern day prog bands too pack ‘em out. So despite it’s leanings towards the complex, it’s not an unpopular form… I mean it’s not jazz haha

    Anyway I don’t think prog’s a dirty word in the ‘rock music mainstream’ in quite the same way as it was 20 years ago. Lot of water under the bridge, and the idea of a ‘rock music mainstream’ is pretty laughable.

    Cardiacs are very interesting and probably the bloke was a genius, but more that 15m does my head in. To be honest, I have the same reaction to solo Art Tatum. Big influence on Radiohead and Blur (and Napalm Death)
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-21-2021 at 04:13 PM.

  21. #45

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    I like Yes, King Crimson, some Genesis and even a bit of ELP but the prog group that appealed to me most (to the extent of seeing them live quite a lot - I think it was into the mid twenties when I could no longer stand listening to Ian Andersons strained voice) was Jethro Tull.

    Interesting band. Decent players rather than deliberately virtuosic and had eclectic influences. You could hear lots of celtic/folk music in their later stuff but they started out much more bluesy with even an occasional mild jazz tendency. Ian always acknowledged his debt to Roland Kirk and Tull played this one live for a long time:


  22. #46

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    Speaking of jazz/prog crossover I must mention that the much missed Keith Tippett a leading light European Avant Garde jazz also recorded with King Crimson and was invited to join, but declined.

    Keith was a one off. Can’t believe he’s gone; he’s still there in my head telling me off

  23. #47

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    Perhaps not influential, but excellent:


  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    Speaking of jazz/prog crossover I must mention that the much missed Keith Tippett a leading light European Avant Garde jazz also recorded with King Crimson and was invited to join, but declined.

    Keith was a one off. Can’t believe he’s gone; he’s still there in my head telling me off for treating jazz as a repertoire music (sorry Keith, this shit’s important to me.)

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar View Post
    I saw King Crimson in concert once. They made an impression. They were different for sure. But virtuosic? I can’t say it hit me that way at all.

    in that same time frame I saw Stephen Stills, Jerry Garcia, Eric Clapton, Alvin Lee (there’s one), Craig Chaquico (another one), and Carlos Santana. Plus a bunch of other 60s/70s rock guitar heroes.

    Then I saw McLaughlin and Benson…
    When you saw KC, they were probably the original KC, who were anything but a virtuoso band. Other than the unison soli on 20th century Schizoid Man, they were more interested in songs, with simple, melodic improvisation.
    Then they went on the road, and some of them found out they weren't cut out for touring. Fripp was the only one left, and he made it into a hardcore virtuoso band.
    I was disappointed in MacDonald, who along with Dennis Elliot (the drummer from If), sold out, and both joined Foreigner, a pop-rock band.

  26. #50

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    Fair dos (deuce) Christian. How to define prog rock: Interesting? Challenging? Surprising? Suite-like approach? A progression of what came before?

    Absolutely agree re. Cardiacs: it can get a bit too much after a while. Obviously a bit of a genius, anyway.

    I think you previously alluded to a (for me, welcome) blurring of genres in some contemporary music. Well, as a spare time guitarist/composer I love some of Nir Felder's stuff, for example: