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  1. #76
    Hi Peter C - I'm not sure if you're referring to any of my comments, but I said in an earlier post
    You're right about nuevo flamenco, though Paco (who is dead) is generally deemed to have a good grasp of the traditional stuff as well.
    . I am also familiar with the terms you reference, so, presumably 'great'. The implication being if not, b*s*?

    Paco could indeed play flamenco (guitar). I'm surprised you didn't know.

    VA can when he wants to, but plays a lot of pop flamenco as well. GN is a better bet. No more flamenco here for me.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Paco de Lucía certainly played flamenco contemporáneo; I'm not sure that nu flamenco would be the best way of rendering that into English. If you're familiar with the term palos (bulerías, fandangos, soleás etc etc), great, if not ....

    Someone here saying Paco "could play flamenco"? Right, good to know.

    Vicente Amigo, anyone?
    Of course he could... he comes from the roots... there was beautiful documentary about him, his early years, parents, traditions, hometown life etc

    This for examples

  4. #78

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    Hi Hugo, no I don't think I was referring to your comments specifically. I actually find your original post rather interesting, but haven't had time to respond to it. What I said about Paco was tinged with a dash of sarcasm, let's say. Reading through the thread, I see you know your stuff! However, Vicente is an absolute master who has to eat - I recommend watching the first 8 mins or so of the below clip if you're not familiar with it.

    Anyway, Christian in his above post was spot-on with "Today's mad eclectic fusion music mashup is tomorrow's purist style"

    Prog/art rock musicians back in the 70s may not have been top-level performers in their own right of baroque or straight rock, but they excelled at playing and developing the new genre. Steve Howe of Yes comes to mind. ¡Viva la fusión! Do your thing.


  5. #79

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    "I believe, yes, you can be great in any of these style as a player, but maybe better at one than the other a little bit. Life will decide.

    But no, not flamenco, not for me lol. Only cliches, so I can awe the lay listeners for a sec, nothing deep. I'm ok with that though, no ambitions there." Hep


    Hi, Hep,
    I agree with your first statement but the second statement should be considered your personal opinion and not interpreted ,by any, as a statement of fact. Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true. Good playing . . . Mariner




  6. #80
    Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true.
    When I said I was not going post anything further about flamenco what I MEANT to say etc etc etc :-)...

    You are absolutely right of course, but I don't think Heptothejive (I think! - took some time) was saying that. He was saying he was OK with a few flamenco stunt tricks to impress the ladies, but had no intention of delving any further - the same with me and Country and Western guitar, without the trying to impress anyone part.

    On the matter of the liturgy, the toque or palo, whatever - the familiar but never exactly the same language serves a greater good - that of stimulating a profound emotional response in others, the band and the audience, if there is indeed a distinction. Not 'OK...here's...my technique!', though of course that does happen. To be able to use one's technical facility to induce profound emotional responses in others is an honour and not a fairground trick to elicit praise for one's technical skills.

    Which brings me to Manitas de Plata. He had history, i.e. he was a French Gitano but was a playboy/showoff who basically wanted to f* Brigitte Bardot. I don't blame him there, but Sabicas he is not. He didn't play with compás and his approximate technique, though flashy, was well short of the rest you mention. He's really like the 'lead' guitarist we all knew in our youth, who could turn out a jaw dropping lead solo and get 'the ladies' (no, I haven't got a problem there. I haven't! Really!), but couldn't change key, or play in a different style.

    I also have to say I don't like Vincente in the video above. To me, it's film music. Romantic and quasi-classical. I like the old guys I have to say - something I never found in jazz, where I tend to cut to the modern improvising chase, leaving Bix etc. I know it's my bad. Because I like group work as opposed to solo stuff, I like Paco Cepero, Moraito, or Manuel Morao (his Uncle). For solo guitar, I love this guy - it's pretty true to the old school where one of my jazz rules is regularly broken - that of 4 times repetition without variation. The equivalent of banging something in your face until you respond (or remember it).


    I'm really wanting to play some flamenco now, but this lockdown thing is playing havoc with my vitamin D presumably and my nails are awful. The beer probably doesn't help.
    Last edited by Hugo Gainly; 05-30-2020 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #81

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    I heard and appreciated a lot of raw flamenco in sweaty, smoke-filled bars in the very "eclectic" Barcelona of the 80s & 90s, and love Sanlucar. Anyway, fusion/mongrel music has captured my attention for the last 20 years, and here's an example, hoping it will add to someone's life. I won't be posting anything else here


  8. #82
    Thanks for posting that Peter C. I couldn't 'eat a whole one' but there were some great passages in it. Didn't see the guitarist doing much but the singer/sax player is good. Those little gigs are fascinating. I think I saw Bill Frisell doing one.

    I guess to return to the point, the singer knew his flamenco but also found time to learn the alto pretty well.

  9. #83

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    My contribution to your thread was basically why not play both genres at the same time and see what happens.
    Yeah, the guitarist in that clip may have been called in at the last minute, as he hesitates and glances at a chart. Cheers
    Last edited by Peter C; 05-31-2020 at 02:45 PM.

  10. #84

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    My suggestion (honeymoon tip) forget the genre's and develop the you.

    This was to be my watershed year for jazz, made a year commitment, paid the big bucks for a one year course. It was a terrible experience, made worse by the loss of live real world classes and lack of effort to adapt by the instructor.

    BUT

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "I believe, yes, you can be great in any of these style as a player, but maybe better at one than the other a little bit. Life will decide.

    But no, not flamenco, not for me lol. Only cliches, so I can awe the lay listeners for a sec, nothing deep. I'm ok with that though, no ambitions there." Hep


    Hi, Hep,
    I agree with your first statement but the second statement should be considered your personal opinion and not interpreted ,by any, as a statement of fact. Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true. Good playing . . . Mariner



    Why? The second statement only concerns me, that I'm a lame flamenco player at best and have no ambitions to get better at that style. Precisely because the players you mentioned are too good. I will never get there. But, the point is, knowing a few cliches is good enough for me.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    My suggestion (honeymoon tip) forget the genre's and develop the you.

    This was to be my watershed year for jazz, made a year commitment, paid the big bucks for a one year course. It was a terrible experience, made worse by the loss of live real world classes and lack of effort to adapt by the instructor.

    BUT

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.
    Originals, yes! All you said applies to me exactly.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    ...

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.

    "I am my own genre" ^

    yeah man.. & don't ever forget it!...no excuses from here on in

    think miles


    cheers

  14. #88

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    Yes neatomic. i wrote that forgetting all about my footer quote. Might have to print out and frame it.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    I heard and appreciated a lot of raw flamenco in sweaty, smoke-filled bars in the very "eclectic" Barcelona of the 80s & 90s, and love Sanlucar. Anyway, fusion/mongrel music has captured my attention for the last 20 years, and here's an example, hoping it will add to someone's life. I won't be posting anything else here

    Hi, Peter,
    A few comments:
    1.) not Flamenco
    2.) excellent vocals
    3.) hip sax
    4.) absence of a Flamenco guitarist
    I lived in Miami for 12 years and frequented live Flamenco clubs regularly . . . my favorite being a wonderful Spanish taberna called Casa Panza in Little Havana. There were between 8-10 active clubs in Miami that offered live Flamenco Music weekly with outstanding local musicians and cantaores. I love the passion of the music and its originality and improvisational spirit couched within traditional Flamenco forms. This music, however, in my opinion, is not Flamenco. "Fusion," "Mongrel," . . . Perfect! Good playing . . . Marinero

  16. #90

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    Hello sailor! (couldn't resist).
    point 1: ¡eso es puro cante jondo, oiga!
    other points: yes

  17. #91

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    I mentioned earlier that, "I have played whatever music the bands have wanted their audiences to hear", but that's because I was interested in different genres. I have performed with hundreds of musicians and they have been like me - interested in lots of different kinds of music enough to have learned how to play them and having played in bands of differing genres, and played in individual bands that played music of different genres.

    But it seems that when a musician is fortunate enough to be selected as a gravy train for the music industry, it's as if someone sits the musician down and they have a little talk about the musical boundaries of the product; something along the lines of, "We are promoting and selling you as a (insert genre here) artist, so that is the course. Don't let us hear about you playing something else in public or letting any stray genre playing being released or leaked. Stay on script when interviewed, etc...The lawyers have the details."

    I am certain that our guitar artist heroes could play things quite well that might have been restricted from appearing on their records in order to support the purity and consistency of the promoters' branding story - that so and so must be known as a (insert genre here) guitarist. This goes along with having various charts of hits for the different genres, various record labels associated with specific genres, and probably a lot of other genre differentiation things of which I have no clue.

    I think the natural state of a musician is to be versed in different genres as a result of curiosity while learning, acquired broad interest, and an honest history of having performed all kinds of music. It seems unlikely that so many well known guitarists would suppress or allow to be suppressed their personal history of playing other genres. Almost as if the unspoken past and certain influence of playing other music is hidden and just referenced by the word "dues".

  18. #92

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    I had a conversation with a Nashville friend a while back, mulling over the difference between being a 'guest artist/collaborator' and being a 'sideman'. There's a difference between having an artistic identity flexible enough to play with folks from different genres, and being able to the anonymous guitar chair on a nondescript jazz/blues/country/blugrass/Manouche/flamenco/Motown gig... In some ways you need to show up with a lot more memorized material (intros, endings, riffs) to play the beer hall than the concert hall...

    It's difficult to say what the opportunities will be for anyone going forward from the pandemic, but in the past, I've found external factors can serve to set priorities. If I'm getting a lot of gigs with a vocalist, I'm diving in to playing good changes over standards, if I'm gigging with a group that reads well I'll compose for the ensemble. Maybe who you're playing with can give you inspiration on how to organize your practice.

    For what it's worth, in the mid 90's I hung out at Stephen Marchione's NYC shop. A lot of the Broadway, jingle, studio and touring cats would drop in for repairs. Stephen liked to listen to the real Flamenco while he worked, and they would all remark "I thought I knew how to play everything, but I have no idea how to do that!"

    PK

  19. #93

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    ¡Venga chiquillos, os dejo esto pa' que disfrutéis! No sé si han tocao alguna vez en "Miami" ¡Hasta luego!


  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Hello sailor! (couldn't resist).
    point 1: ¡eso es puro cante jondo, oiga!
    other points: yes
    Hola, P,
    Cante jonda???`Gracias P. Me gusta este grupo y la musica. De donde son ellos? Puerto Rico, Espana, Nueva York? Buen tocando . . . Marinero


  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    ¡Venga chiquillos, os dejo esto pa' que disfrutéis! No sé si han tocao alguna vez en "Miami" ¡Hasta luego!

    Hola, P,
    Lo vi en vivo en Chicago con su grupo. El mejor! Buen tocando . . . Marinero

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I had a conversation with a Nashville friend a while back, mulling over the difference between being a 'guest artist/collaborator' and being a 'sideman'. There's a difference between having an artistic identity flexible enough to play with folks from different genres, and being able to the anonymous guitar chair on a nondescript jazz/blues/country/blugrass/Manouche/flamenco/Motown gig... In some ways you need to show up with a lot more memorized material (intros, endings, riffs) to play the beer hall than the concert hall...

    It's difficult to say what the opportunities will be for anyone going forward from the pandemic, but in the past, I've found external factors can serve to set priorities. If I'm getting a lot of gigs with a vocalist, I'm diving in to playing good changes over standards, if I'm gigging with a group that reads well I'll compose for the ensemble. Maybe who you're playing with can give you inspiration on how to organize your practice.

    For what it's worth, in the mid 90's I hung out at Stephen Marchione's NYC shop. A lot of the Broadway, jingle, studio and touring cats would drop in for repairs. Stephen liked to listen to the real Flamenco while he worked, and they would all remark "I thought I knew how to play everything, but I have no idea how to do that!"

    PK
    Thanks, that's really interesting.

    I always wanted to be a guest artist/collaborator and can't imagine how anyone would want to be otherwise, but I actually know far more people who are perfectly happy nailing this or that guitar tone or style. So, there's clearly room for both! Good to know which way you lean though....

  23. #97

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    <Public information service notice>

    @ Marinero
    OK, cante jondo (with an o at the end, cuz cante is a masculine noun) is a flamenco vocal style - see here for more: Cante jondo - Wikipedia

    I wasn't familiar with the group "Fusion Jonda" (fusión is a feminine noun, thus the a at the end), but they appear to be from Puerto Rico. Certainly ain't flamenco, but if you like them you may also like a Spanish group called Ketama.

    I've lived in Spain for many years (fully integrated and bilingual) and my Spanish side finally rebelled so I posted Paco with Camarón de la Isla, both absolutely revered by ANDALUSIAN flamenco artists and fans alike.

    I don't play flamenco myself because I figured that the rasgueado was a technique you had to grow up with. Too many years with a pick.

    Ciao

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
    On the matter of the liturgy, the toque or palo, whatever - the familiar but never exactly the same language serves a greater good - that of stimulating a profound emotional response in others, the band and the audience, if there is indeed a distinction. Not 'OK...here's...my technique!', though of course that does happen. To be able to use one's technical facility to induce profound emotional responses in others is an honour and not a fairground trick to elicit praise for one's technical skills.
    Olé, by the way.

  25. #99

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    "I've lived in Spain for many years (fully integrated and bilingual)" PeterC


    Well, P, we have some interesting twists on "jondo." Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I could tell from your Spanish that you weren't Puerto Rican, South American, or Mexican. All three use different words, expressions although the syntax is "almost" the same. Good playing . . . Marinero



  26. #100

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    A young Vicente paying his dues