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  1. #51

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    I did study flamenco for a couple of years, went to Spain, have about 1000 cds. Still play a bit. The guitar in it, to me, comes third after the singing and the dancing. I only studied compass, aka rhythmic playing. It is the one music that has fascinated me the most, after gospel music and jazz. Eventually I gave up because not having a good fingerstyle background, I could play stuff, but nothing sounded good to me. So I went into classical to improve my technique. But both flamenco and classical studies very clearly showed me the choice thing. I'd spend a few days occasionally playing classical 6 hours a day, and the connection with the instrument would rise, only to fade again when I would go back to 1 or 2 hours.

    How is excellence defined in any genre? By people dedicating their entire lives, 24/7, at it. So that's the only way to go after that. Of course with players doing their own thing (or some extremely talented and dedicated), you see them doing different styles and genres, but even there, because of the way the market works, they focus on one thing.

    Guitar is even worse, because it's many instruments. Electric, hollowbody, acoustic, classical, flamenco. Different techniques, whereas a saxophonist still plays the same instrument in classical and jazz.

    I think learning a new idiom is comparable (in difficulty) to learning a new instrument, that's how difficult and important learning the music is.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I met more than a few guitarists on GJ scene who proudly told me they don't play or interested in anything other than Django and GJ. I hear some challenge in the voice when they proclaim it, like anyone who does otherwise is a bit inferior. Good guys, very dedicated players, aspiring to be good in one particular style, but I can't be like that.
    I can't help but feel Django would have thought this attitude utterly risible. Now he was an eclectic... Technique from banjo, rhythm from gypsy and bar musette, language from Louis, guitar from an Italian classical guitarist turned maker, harmony from Debussy and Ravel. Later, bebop..

    That said, there's nothing wrong with being a dedicated imitator when you are in you early 20s, say. It's a good thing in fact. Later on, it's like - grow up.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I can't help but feel Django would have thought this attitude utterly risible. Now he was an eclectic... Technique from banjo, rhythm from gypsy and bar musette, language from Louis, guitar from an Italian classical guitarist turned maker, harmony from Debussy and Ravel. Later, bebop..

    That said, there's nothing wrong with being a dedicated imitator when you are in you early 20s, say. It's a good thing in fact. Later on, it's like - grow up.
    Interestig that I also thought that Django must have seemed like a mess of everything: American music, European cabaret/variete', and even calssical salon music, jewish music, gipsy gutar idioms etc

    When I put Django to my friend - classical musician who does not know jazz - he said: sounds like Jascha Heifetz!

  5. #54

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    Today's mad eclectic fusion music mashup is tomorrow's purist style.

    See also - New Orleans.

    I can dig the Heifitz thing - I always felt Django sounded like a fiddle.

  6. #55

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    I also thought that this purism partly comes from the idea that out mentality is much science-stipulated.
    (I personally think that there are three more or less essential way of seeing the world: artistic, religious and scientific .. and today in general scientific dominates in everyday life: how people make their 'beliefs or not', how they make conclusions etc.)...

    And scientism influemced much arts too...

    I know a guy who is a brilliant musicisn and expert in medieval music - this is a rare case, he attracted my attention first as a performer (he playes citole) and then I found out that he is a remarkable researcher - very solid within scientific model or historic research. He is a very good writer and lecturer too. And of cours ehe know the history very well (and especially British history - his main passion - together with Aston Villa)

    He has two project - one that performs medieval music - another makes covers of different rock groups in medieval style (mostly it is prog-rock that reflects his interests of youth). the second project is as well eleborated as the first. Yes it is intended to attract audience more but it is very authentic, an dI also noticed that - though the idea in genral is not close to me, and the music of progrock never really interested me - I still enjoy his covers.

    But the important point is I still think he is quite a strong purist (in a good sense maybe)- -- I will explain why... once we talked about music and I mentioned some renaissance conception - an dhe immidiately said: renaissance is not my specialization.
    Another moment was when I sent him a picture of medieval citole player form Venetian Doge's Palace (he collects them) - he answered: Venice is out of the reach of my interests.

    That is the thing which is strange to me... I admire and envy people who manage to stay within one area... I love so many things and try to dig deep an dalways feel I am at the edge of a loss (buy maybe a great loss? Like Faulkner used to say)...
    there is always some mysterious flow in my activities which I believe guides me wherever I go - and I cannot restrict it with deliberat limitation or statement (

    why not look at the early Renaissance - it is the next door from the late Medieval - the question is what are you looking for... this is what is crucial I believe... what is that that you are after...?

    And in that sense the scientific metality in my opinion brings in a mess and false objects..

  7. #56
    again we seem to come to teh point of original and imitation... natural expression and pretensions...

    Conceptions are ok but it requires complex and elaborated language like in classical or in modern jazz... otherwise it turns into pretensions
    I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this statement correctly - you seem to only allow revolutionary change requiring a complex statement of its values and approaches rather than the iterative change that takes place over time. Every style has its development and at every point I'm sure the old aficionados would baulk and object - In blues, delta, country, gospel, electric, Chicago, white middle class dentist. In jazz Ragtime, Louis, Trad., swing, bebop, cool, Ornette etc etc (these are not official styles...).

    You're right about nuevo flamenco, though Paco (who is dead) is generally deemed to have a good grasp of the traditional stuff as well. He envigorated flamenco for the 21st century market but it's not for me. It's a more trivialised exposition to me which again comes down to the notion of playing an instrument rather than creating an experience driven by a collective endeavour of guitar, singer, dancer, palmas etc. The social construct is pretty strong.

  8. #57

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    Being a guitarist in the US and trying to cover what is considered American roots music means anything from New Orleans ragtime to bluegrass to folk to rockabilly to blues to western swing to Americana, rhythm & blues to swing to jazz to zydeco to cajun to tex-mex to ............it doesn't end. Roots rock, NOLA funk, country western....

    The passion and big link to it all is the....guitar. It's been a mainstay in almost all American roots music, and the longer you play this stuff, the more connected it all becomes, but.....they are all unique in their own way, so they certainly qualify as different styles.

    I find that it is not uncommon with older US guitarists to be skilled to play much of this eclectic mix of styles, because it's the music of our culture.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I can dig the Heifitz thing - I always felt Django sounded like a fiddle.
    Didn't he play the fiddle first ?

    I might have made this up but I think I remember Martin Taylor saying Stefan Grappelli would play the piano if one was on stage while Django played his (SG's)) violin...

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75
    Didn't he play the fiddle first ?

    I might have made this up but I think I remember Martin Taylor saying Stefan Grappelli would play the piano if one was on stage while Django played his (SG's)) violin...
    Heifetz was jew - and though he belonged to the family that was educated in classical musical tradition - he grew up in Vilnius (Eastern Jerusalem) the center of ashkenazi culture, he was definitely influenced by klezmer playing if not directly then spiritually (the sprit breaths where it will?) ...

    I think it also concerns Benny Goodman and Arti Shaw - their clarinets have jewish roots to me even if they did not play jewish music ever.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
    I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this statement correctly - you seem to only allow revolutionary change requiring a complex statement of its values and approaches rather than the iterative change that takes place over time. Every style has its development and at every point I'm sure the old aficionados would baulk and object - In blues, delta, country, gospel, electric, Chicago, white middle class dentist. In jazz Ragtime, Louis, Trad., swing, bebop, cool, Ornette etc etc (these are not official styles...).
    Not really - I do not have strong conviction here... I think in historical conception there can be very different views. Alexey Losev - one of the greatest art historian ever - considered every style as transitional.

    Revolutionary is a bit strong word... my perception comes from teh strong feeling of personality in art.
    Every person is unique, being true to oneself is the only way to be oroginal, but why one seems original to me and aniother seems imitator - I cannot always say...
    So the style at the end of it all for me can be reduced to personality... if I dig deeper in Handel's music (as I did some time before) I begin to see his style as very distinct and so on... but conventionally I understand that he belongs to baroque -- and in details I can identify Italian French and German baroque in his music, I can hear secular and church music and so on and so (it goes already more into the genre area maybe)...
    But probably his personal style is what attracts me. I believe that his Rinaldo lives, becasue I believe that Handel really lives...


    As for complexity... classical music gives great tool for expressing very complex thing.

    there are great blues players but you cannot express with blues what can be made by Mozartian opera or Bach's passions or Handel's Rinaldo... it overcomes everything.


    it is like a nice, very authentic and simple house and a Gothic cathedral....

    Cultivation is the sign of high art. and I believe there is such thing as The High Art.

    I am not snobbish as it may seem... not at all. But this how I feel and percieve things... I cannot treat comples things simpler becasue in their complexity for me there is their essence (and for me it may be not that complex actually)

    I just realize I see life, world, truth, beauty as complex and subtle (not heavy and perplexed - complexity is sophistication and light here) and I see the tools of expressin this complexity and subtlety.

  12. #61
    Jkniff26 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Being a guitarist in the US and trying to cover what is considered American roots music means anything from New Orleans ragtime to bluegrass to folk to rockabilly to blues to western swing to Americana, rhythm & blues to swing to jazz to zydeco to cajun to tex-mex to ............it doesn't end. Roots rock, NOLA funk, country western....

    The passion and big link to it all is the....guitar. It's been a mainstay in almost all American roots music, and the longer you play this stuff, the more connected it all becomes, but.....they are all unique in their own way, so they certainly qualify as different styles.

    I find that it is not uncommon with older US guitarists to be skilled to play much of this eclectic mix of styles, because it's the music of our culture.
    My man . Exactly. I mean I guess we are all just simpleton dummies in the world view , but the music heritage wow!!! for me Hank Williams , Muddy Waters, Mahalia Jackson, Ralph Stanley , The Carter Family, Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, Otis Redding , Marvin Gaye, Frank Sinatra, Chuck Berry , Little Richard, Duke Ellington, Gershwin, Ella Fitzgerald, Patsy Cline, Louis Armstrong, James Brown, Willie Nelson, Nat King Cole , Elvis, Ray Charles, Paul Simon, Carole King, Van Halen, The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Charlie Parker , Chris Stapleton, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Aretha Franklin.... sorry it goes on for ever but there is a bit of southern gospel and blues in all those people . As a listener or a guy who wants to pick some tunes with a friend or alone ,it all just goes logically together without thinking about genres or arbitrary rules or music critics. F them and the horsie they rode in on.

    sorry for the nationalism, thanks to the Brits for the Beatles and tons of great music, and man I love all things Russian so ya all rock in my book.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I also thought that this purism partly comes from the idea that out mentality is much science-stipulated.
    (I personally think that there are three more or less essential way of seeing the world: artistic, religious and scientific .. and today in general scientific dominates in everyday life: how people make their 'beliefs or not', how they make conclusions etc.)...

    And scientism influemced much arts too...

    I know a guy who is a brilliant musicisn and expert in medieval music - this is a rare case, he attracted my attention first as a performer (he playes citole) and then I found out that he is a remarkable researcher - very solid within scientific model or historic research. He is a very good writer and lecturer too. And of cours ehe know the history very well (and especially British history - his main passion - together with Aston Villa)

    He has two project - one that performs medieval music - another makes covers of different rock groups in medieval style (mostly it is prog-rock that reflects his interests of youth). the second project is as well eleborated as the first. Yes it is intended to attract audience more but it is very authentic, an dI also noticed that - though the idea in genral is not close to me, and the music of progrock never really interested me - I still enjoy his covers.

    But the important point is I still think he is quite a strong purist (in a good sense maybe)- -- I will explain why... once we talked about music and I mentioned some renaissance conception - an dhe immidiately said: renaissance is not my specialization.
    Another moment was when I sent him a picture of medieval citole player form Venetian Doge's Palace (he collects them) - he answered: Venice is out of the reach of my interests.

    That is the thing which is strange to me... I admire and envy people who manage to stay within one area... I love so many things and try to dig deep an dalways feel I am at the edge of a loss (buy maybe a great loss? Like Faulkner used to say)...
    there is always some mysterious flow in my activities which I believe guides me wherever I go - and I cannot restrict it with deliberat limitation or statement (

    why not look at the early Renaissance - it is the next door from the late Medieval - the question is what are you looking for... this is what is crucial I believe... what is that that you are after...?

    And in that sense the scientific metality in my opinion brings in a mess and false objects..
    Yep. For example, what Stravinsky thought about Charlie Christian is of interest to me (he singled him out as a favourite.)

    Most scholars of Stravinsky would not care.

    so we miss a little bit of the man and his art?

    just had to sit through the most tedious lecture. ‘This is what is wrong with classical music education culture’ - could have told you that ten years ago. Seriously, that took x years of someone’s life to realise?

    classical musicians stuck in their own world even when they critique their world. Fantastically frustrating and they DO NOT LIKE TO BE TOLD by an outsider. I have experience of classical and non classical worlds. But they are learning the hard way.

    how many of these people have experience outside of that world? On what experiential basis do they form their conclusions? Bugger all most likely.

    And that’s never really a part of this sort argumentation. 'academic rigour'.

    but that’s true of all specialisms, not having a go at classical in particular.

    But artists - always seem broader. Find ways of making connections... Stravinsky's Ebony Concerto is not in any way jazz, but it's a fascinating thing that wouldn't have existed without jazz.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-15-2020 at 08:46 AM.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    I like to think of my approach as syncretic.

    If "syncretic" means "swiping everything I can get my fingers around.
    Interesting word choice. I think I've only seen it used in connection with religion, but it might be a good alternative to eclectic in the arts.

    John

  15. #64
    I think I've only seen it used in connection with religion, but it might be a good alternative to eclectic in the arts.
    Yeah, I first came upon the term 'syncretic' in Nara in Japan, in a description of Buddhism arriving from Korea and mixing with Shintoism. The result seems to be a version (one, nb) of Buddhism that has a seriously management-heavy layer of buddhas at the top.

    Jonah - I really like your posts! Are you an intellectual? I am sure your answer will be wonderfully European - 'No I don't think so' or 'Yes, I suppose I am'.

  16. #65
    they DO NOT LIKE TO BE TOLD by an outsider.
    Just make them take 16 bars of Moment's Notice, or say where '1' is in a son montuno played by Cubans.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Interesting word choice. I think I've only seen it used in connection with religion, but it might be a good alternative to eclectic in the arts.

    John
    But jazz is a religion, is it not? Beliefs about it seem to be held with an at least quasi-religious fervor.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
    Just make them take 16 bars of Moment's Notice, or say where '1' is in a son montuno played by Cubans.
    This isn’t a pissing contest. I can’t sight read symphony.

    im taking about sociology really.

  19. #68

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    It's interesting to avoid a thread due to opinion, but to eventually read it through and find such a rich discussion; the best the internet has to offer.

    Hugo, welcome.

    Christian, holy shit man you are resourceful.

    Jonah, you are heavy by how you write - I can only imagine what you have devoted to music.

    And all others. Thanks

    To answer the question. I couldn't when I was young; now: passion?

    Spend it when you find it.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    But jazz is a religion, is it not? Beliefs about it seem to be held with an at least quasi-religious fervor.
    People do like to turn everything into tribalism and purity tests. You know, that's the problem with humanity: people.

    John

  21. #70

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    onah - I really like your posts! Are you an intellectual? I am sure your answer will be wonderfully European - 'No I don't think so' or 'Yes, I suppose I am'.

    I will answer like Isaak B. Singer








  22. #71
    I will answer like Isaak B. Singer

  23. #72
    Thanks.

    To answer the question. I couldn't when I was young; now: passion?
    Yep. But it can be replaced by 'increasing equanimity' which has its place :-)

  24. #73

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    Great question, and one I've wrestled with in more than one way over the years. I've never come up with a permanent, black and white answer. It's worse if you play more than one instrument than just different genres.

    I've come to the general conclusion, though, that unless you're a top-level pro (or aspire to be one) and your "brand" relies on it, it really doesn't matter. Just learn to play well enough that it's enjoyable and you don't feel limited or frustrated. If you DO want to get to a better level, well, you'll have to practice more and something else will have to slip. And that has to be OK, or you'll always feel tormented that you're not working hard enough, or you've wasted your energy on the other thing.

    Jazz guitar is what I'm best at, but I also play trumpet. Rationally, it makes sense for me to quit trumpet (and I have, for weeks, months, even years) and focus on guitar. But passion keeps me coming back. Some days i play trumpet and don't have time or energy for guitar.

    With guitar, years ago I was in a rut and felt like jazz was a dead end, and couldn't stand the idea of playing All the Things You Are again, etc. For a few years, I worked on more acoustic stuff, fingerstyle blues, Merle Travis' style, etc., learning more, simpler tunes, and fingerpicking,etc. that expanded my repertoire. And i even played some 3 chord classic rock with some retiree's garage band.

    I eventually got bored with that and came back to jazz, digging in deeper than before, playing more chord melody, swing, and rock tunes, and less bebop. But the stuff I detoured on made me a more versatile, experienced player.

    It's ok to try other things, the path doesn't have to be linear.

  25. #74
    It's ok to try other things, the path doesn't have to be linear.
    That's nice, I agree.

    It is a matter of time, but I am also discovering that discipline, in terms of making time to do the other thing, actually is helpful, in that it is a pleasure to do the (other) thing you love.

  26. #75

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    Paco de Lucía certainly played flamenco contemporáneo; I'm not sure that nu flamenco would be the best way of rendering that into English. If you're familiar with the term palos (bulerías, fandangos, soleás etc etc), great, if not ....

    Someone here saying Paco "could play flamenco"? Right, good to know.

    Vicente Amigo, anyone?

  27. #76
    Hi Peter C - I'm not sure if you're referring to any of my comments, but I said in an earlier post
    You're right about nuevo flamenco, though Paco (who is dead) is generally deemed to have a good grasp of the traditional stuff as well.
    . I am also familiar with the terms you reference, so, presumably 'great'. The implication being if not, b*s*?

    Paco could indeed play flamenco (guitar). I'm surprised you didn't know.

    VA can when he wants to, but plays a lot of pop flamenco as well. GN is a better bet. No more flamenco here for me.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Paco de Lucía certainly played flamenco contemporáneo; I'm not sure that nu flamenco would be the best way of rendering that into English. If you're familiar with the term palos (bulerías, fandangos, soleás etc etc), great, if not ....

    Someone here saying Paco "could play flamenco"? Right, good to know.

    Vicente Amigo, anyone?
    Of course he could... he comes from the roots... there was beautiful documentary about him, his early years, parents, traditions, hometown life etc

    This for examples

  29. #78

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    Hi Hugo, no I don't think I was referring to your comments specifically. I actually find your original post rather interesting, but haven't had time to respond to it. What I said about Paco was tinged with a dash of sarcasm, let's say. Reading through the thread, I see you know your stuff! However, Vicente is an absolute master who has to eat - I recommend watching the first 8 mins or so of the below clip if you're not familiar with it.

    Anyway, Christian in his above post was spot-on with "Today's mad eclectic fusion music mashup is tomorrow's purist style"

    Prog/art rock musicians back in the 70s may not have been top-level performers in their own right of baroque or straight rock, but they excelled at playing and developing the new genre. Steve Howe of Yes comes to mind. ¡Viva la fusión! Do your thing.


  30. #79

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    "I believe, yes, you can be great in any of these style as a player, but maybe better at one than the other a little bit. Life will decide.

    But no, not flamenco, not for me lol. Only cliches, so I can awe the lay listeners for a sec, nothing deep. I'm ok with that though, no ambitions there." Hep


    Hi, Hep,
    I agree with your first statement but the second statement should be considered your personal opinion and not interpreted ,by any, as a statement of fact. Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true. Good playing . . . Mariner




  31. #80
    Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true.
    When I said I was not going post anything further about flamenco what I MEANT to say etc etc etc :-)...

    You are absolutely right of course, but I don't think Heptothejive (I think! - took some time) was saying that. He was saying he was OK with a few flamenco stunt tricks to impress the ladies, but had no intention of delving any further - the same with me and Country and Western guitar, without the trying to impress anyone part.

    On the matter of the liturgy, the toque or palo, whatever - the familiar but never exactly the same language serves a greater good - that of stimulating a profound emotional response in others, the band and the audience, if there is indeed a distinction. Not 'OK...here's...my technique!', though of course that does happen. To be able to use one's technical facility to induce profound emotional responses in others is an honour and not a fairground trick to elicit praise for one's technical skills.

    Which brings me to Manitas de Plata. He had history, i.e. he was a French Gitano but was a playboy/showoff who basically wanted to f* Brigitte Bardot. I don't blame him there, but Sabicas he is not. He didn't play with compás and his approximate technique, though flashy, was well short of the rest you mention. He's really like the 'lead' guitarist we all knew in our youth, who could turn out a jaw dropping lead solo and get 'the ladies' (no, I haven't got a problem there. I haven't! Really!), but couldn't change key, or play in a different style.

    I also have to say I don't like Vincente in the video above. To me, it's film music. Romantic and quasi-classical. I like the old guys I have to say - something I never found in jazz, where I tend to cut to the modern improvising chase, leaving Bix etc. I know it's my bad. Because I like group work as opposed to solo stuff, I like Paco Cepero, Moraito, or Manuel Morao (his Uncle). For solo guitar, I love this guy - it's pretty true to the old school where one of my jazz rules is regularly broken - that of 4 times repetition without variation. The equivalent of banging something in your face until you respond (or remember it).


    I'm really wanting to play some flamenco now, but this lockdown thing is playing havoc with my vitamin D presumably and my nails are awful. The beer probably doesn't help.
    Last edited by Hugo Gainly; 05-30-2020 at 06:27 PM.

  32. #81

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    I heard and appreciated a lot of raw flamenco in sweaty, smoke-filled bars in the very "eclectic" Barcelona of the 80s & 90s, and love Sanlucar. Anyway, fusion/mongrel music has captured my attention for the last 20 years, and here's an example, hoping it will add to someone's life. I won't be posting anything else here


  33. #82
    Thanks for posting that Peter C. I couldn't 'eat a whole one' but there were some great passages in it. Didn't see the guitarist doing much but the singer/sax player is good. Those little gigs are fascinating. I think I saw Bill Frisell doing one.

    I guess to return to the point, the singer knew his flamenco but also found time to learn the alto pretty well.

  34. #83

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    My contribution to your thread was basically why not play both genres at the same time and see what happens.
    Yeah, the guitarist in that clip may have been called in at the last minute, as he hesitates and glances at a chart. Cheers
    Last edited by Peter C; 05-31-2020 at 02:45 PM.

  35. #84

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    My suggestion (honeymoon tip) forget the genre's and develop the you.

    This was to be my watershed year for jazz, made a year commitment, paid the big bucks for a one year course. It was a terrible experience, made worse by the loss of live real world classes and lack of effort to adapt by the instructor.

    BUT

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "I believe, yes, you can be great in any of these style as a player, but maybe better at one than the other a little bit. Life will decide.

    But no, not flamenco, not for me lol. Only cliches, so I can awe the lay listeners for a sec, nothing deep. I'm ok with that though, no ambitions there." Hep


    Hi, Hep,
    I agree with your first statement but the second statement should be considered your personal opinion and not interpreted ,by any, as a statement of fact. Artists as Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, Sabicas, Tomatito, Manitas de Plata, etc. played within the Flamenco tradition of repetitive themes, liturgy if you will,(bulerias, alegrias, tangos,fandangos, solerias, sevillanas) but to deny the improvisational talents needed to accompany these traditional themes/lines is simply not true. Good playing . . . Mariner



    Why? The second statement only concerns me, that I'm a lame flamenco player at best and have no ambitions to get better at that style. Precisely because the players you mentioned are too good. I will never get there. But, the point is, knowing a few cliches is good enough for me.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    My suggestion (honeymoon tip) forget the genre's and develop the you.

    This was to be my watershed year for jazz, made a year commitment, paid the big bucks for a one year course. It was a terrible experience, made worse by the loss of live real world classes and lack of effort to adapt by the instructor.

    BUT

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.
    Originals, yes! All you said applies to me exactly.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    ...

    I have realised the missing piece of my pie is originals. Whatever the genre, I am dropping the pursuit of jazz, does not mean I wont do it continue to develop but my priority is now solely to develop the artist I am and write original music, whatever the genre. It does not matter it is my music. I am my own genre. In a short period I sense my tone, my technique, my touch, sense of melody has increased dramatically.

    "I am my own genre" ^

    yeah man.. & don't ever forget it!...no excuses from here on in

    think miles


    cheers

  39. #88

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    Yes neatomic. i wrote that forgetting all about my footer quote. Might have to print out and frame it.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    I heard and appreciated a lot of raw flamenco in sweaty, smoke-filled bars in the very "eclectic" Barcelona of the 80s & 90s, and love Sanlucar. Anyway, fusion/mongrel music has captured my attention for the last 20 years, and here's an example, hoping it will add to someone's life. I won't be posting anything else here

    Hi, Peter,
    A few comments:
    1.) not Flamenco
    2.) excellent vocals
    3.) hip sax
    4.) absence of a Flamenco guitarist
    I lived in Miami for 12 years and frequented live Flamenco clubs regularly . . . my favorite being a wonderful Spanish taberna called Casa Panza in Little Havana. There were between 8-10 active clubs in Miami that offered live Flamenco Music weekly with outstanding local musicians and cantaores. I love the passion of the music and its originality and improvisational spirit couched within traditional Flamenco forms. This music, however, in my opinion, is not Flamenco. "Fusion," "Mongrel," . . . Perfect! Good playing . . . Marinero

  41. #90

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    Hello sailor! (couldn't resist).
    point 1: ¡eso es puro cante jondo, oiga!
    other points: yes

  42. #91

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    I mentioned earlier that, "I have played whatever music the bands have wanted their audiences to hear", but that's because I was interested in different genres. I have performed with hundreds of musicians and they have been like me - interested in lots of different kinds of music enough to have learned how to play them and having played in bands of differing genres, and played in individual bands that played music of different genres.

    But it seems that when a musician is fortunate enough to be selected as a gravy train for the music industry, it's as if someone sits the musician down and they have a little talk about the musical boundaries of the product; something along the lines of, "We are promoting and selling you as a (insert genre here) artist, so that is the course. Don't let us hear about you playing something else in public or letting any stray genre playing being released or leaked. Stay on script when interviewed, etc...The lawyers have the details."

    I am certain that our guitar artist heroes could play things quite well that might have been restricted from appearing on their records in order to support the purity and consistency of the promoters' branding story - that so and so must be known as a (insert genre here) guitarist. This goes along with having various charts of hits for the different genres, various record labels associated with specific genres, and probably a lot of other genre differentiation things of which I have no clue.

    I think the natural state of a musician is to be versed in different genres as a result of curiosity while learning, acquired broad interest, and an honest history of having performed all kinds of music. It seems unlikely that so many well known guitarists would suppress or allow to be suppressed their personal history of playing other genres. Almost as if the unspoken past and certain influence of playing other music is hidden and just referenced by the word "dues".

  43. #92

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    I had a conversation with a Nashville friend a while back, mulling over the difference between being a 'guest artist/collaborator' and being a 'sideman'. There's a difference between having an artistic identity flexible enough to play with folks from different genres, and being able to the anonymous guitar chair on a nondescript jazz/blues/country/blugrass/Manouche/flamenco/Motown gig... In some ways you need to show up with a lot more memorized material (intros, endings, riffs) to play the beer hall than the concert hall...

    It's difficult to say what the opportunities will be for anyone going forward from the pandemic, but in the past, I've found external factors can serve to set priorities. If I'm getting a lot of gigs with a vocalist, I'm diving in to playing good changes over standards, if I'm gigging with a group that reads well I'll compose for the ensemble. Maybe who you're playing with can give you inspiration on how to organize your practice.

    For what it's worth, in the mid 90's I hung out at Stephen Marchione's NYC shop. A lot of the Broadway, jingle, studio and touring cats would drop in for repairs. Stephen liked to listen to the real Flamenco while he worked, and they would all remark "I thought I knew how to play everything, but I have no idea how to do that!"

    PK

  44. #93

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    ¡Venga chiquillos, os dejo esto pa' que disfrutéis! No sé si han tocao alguna vez en "Miami" ¡Hasta luego!


  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Hello sailor! (couldn't resist).
    point 1: ¡eso es puro cante jondo, oiga!
    other points: yes
    Hola, P,
    Cante jonda???`Gracias P. Me gusta este grupo y la musica. De donde son ellos? Puerto Rico, Espana, Nueva York? Buen tocando . . . Marinero


  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    ¡Venga chiquillos, os dejo esto pa' que disfrutéis! No sé si han tocao alguna vez en "Miami" ¡Hasta luego!

    Hola, P,
    Lo vi en vivo en Chicago con su grupo. El mejor! Buen tocando . . . Marinero

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I had a conversation with a Nashville friend a while back, mulling over the difference between being a 'guest artist/collaborator' and being a 'sideman'. There's a difference between having an artistic identity flexible enough to play with folks from different genres, and being able to the anonymous guitar chair on a nondescript jazz/blues/country/blugrass/Manouche/flamenco/Motown gig... In some ways you need to show up with a lot more memorized material (intros, endings, riffs) to play the beer hall than the concert hall...

    It's difficult to say what the opportunities will be for anyone going forward from the pandemic, but in the past, I've found external factors can serve to set priorities. If I'm getting a lot of gigs with a vocalist, I'm diving in to playing good changes over standards, if I'm gigging with a group that reads well I'll compose for the ensemble. Maybe who you're playing with can give you inspiration on how to organize your practice.

    For what it's worth, in the mid 90's I hung out at Stephen Marchione's NYC shop. A lot of the Broadway, jingle, studio and touring cats would drop in for repairs. Stephen liked to listen to the real Flamenco while he worked, and they would all remark "I thought I knew how to play everything, but I have no idea how to do that!"

    PK
    Thanks, that's really interesting.

    I always wanted to be a guest artist/collaborator and can't imagine how anyone would want to be otherwise, but I actually know far more people who are perfectly happy nailing this or that guitar tone or style. So, there's clearly room for both! Good to know which way you lean though....

  48. #97

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    <Public information service notice>

    @ Marinero
    OK, cante jondo (with an o at the end, cuz cante is a masculine noun) is a flamenco vocal style - see here for more: Cante jondo - Wikipedia

    I wasn't familiar with the group "Fusion Jonda" (fusión is a feminine noun, thus the a at the end), but they appear to be from Puerto Rico. Certainly ain't flamenco, but if you like them you may also like a Spanish group called Ketama.

    I've lived in Spain for many years (fully integrated and bilingual) and my Spanish side finally rebelled so I posted Paco with Camarón de la Isla, both absolutely revered by ANDALUSIAN flamenco artists and fans alike.

    I don't play flamenco myself because I figured that the rasgueado was a technique you had to grow up with. Too many years with a pick.

    Ciao

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
    On the matter of the liturgy, the toque or palo, whatever - the familiar but never exactly the same language serves a greater good - that of stimulating a profound emotional response in others, the band and the audience, if there is indeed a distinction. Not 'OK...here's...my technique!', though of course that does happen. To be able to use one's technical facility to induce profound emotional responses in others is an honour and not a fairground trick to elicit praise for one's technical skills.
    Olé, by the way.

  50. #99

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    "I've lived in Spain for many years (fully integrated and bilingual)" PeterC


    Well, P, we have some interesting twists on "jondo." Good playing . . . Marinero

    P.S. I could tell from your Spanish that you weren't Puerto Rican, South American, or Mexican. All three use different words, expressions although the syntax is "almost" the same. Good playing . . . Marinero



  51. #100

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    A young Vicente paying his dues