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  1. #101

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    Sco on that chord

    When I first started to play guitar-this was before Hendrix-there was a chord known as the “Hold It” chord, an E sharp 9. It was based on a break tune that came from an older generation, a Bill Doggett song from the ’50s. And then Hendrix started to play this chord and it became known as the Jimi Hendrix Chord. You can hear it on “Purple Haze.” So the “Hold It” chord became the Jimi Hendrix Chord in 1968. Now, that’s a big influence right there
    .

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    It's known by that name to rock musicians. See Debussy and probably before him.
    The 'Hendrix chord' can also be heard at the end of Peter Warlock's 'Capriol Suite' (1926). In fact the repetitive rhythms and bass pedal notes remind me a bit of 'Purple Haze'.

  4. #103

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    "...there was a chord known as the “Hold It” chord, an E sharp 9. It was based on a break tune that came from an older generation, a Bill Doggett song from the ’50s. And then Hendrix started to play this chord and it became known as the Jimi Hendrix Chord."

    HOLD IT by Bill Doggett, -- And that's that"




  5. #104

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    Here is the chord, not uncommon in jazz, at the beginning of Jordu--performed by Barney Kessel, Ray Brown and Shelley Manne on the album "The Poll Winners" (1957), on the guitar that for sale at auction right now--see another thread on this site.


  6. #105

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    Larry Coryell:

    The unison of electric bass and guitar of the C&W-type chords in “Hey Joe” sounded not unlike Stockhausen or Stravinsky or the Jazz Composers’ Orchestra, for example. A lot of these similarities with facets of jazz were totally not consciously intended, I’m guessing. Jimi just wanted to play his thing as he saw it. He was like a Mozart surrounded by Salieri. At least when I was around him, he never stopped and let his ego assess his work and compare it favorably or unfavorably with others in a who’s better than who sense.


    But that is not going to stop us.

  7. #106

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    Larry C. was a teacher and friend. He was friends with some of these guys. Went over to his place one time and he was on the phone with Jeff Beck about a Hendrix tribute. None of these guys looked at their playing as a competition with each other.. They all admired and respected each other's individual talents talents.

  8. #107

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    I was in Monterey (lived there) when Hendrix did his thing. A novelty act, nothing more. I have never changed my first hand, direct observational opinion.

    I'll go with Beck as my choice for the better musician, and other than Hendrix, the others are OK.

    I prefer "or" to vs, as that sets up an adversarial situation.

  9. #108

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    I grew up less than an hour's drive from Haight-Ashbury. Music shaped my world as a young child, for it was everywhere. In '64 I was a 9 year old groovin' along to Dad's Wes Montgomery records while at the same time digging The Beatles. By '68 I'd developed my own musical independence and in my popular music world there was nothing bigger than MOTOWN. It wasn't until decades later that I'd learn the actual studio musicians were jazz cats, even though my ears had already told me so.

    But in '68 even I knew then that Jimmy Hendrix was a GOD. His guitar playing was equally as impressionable as the voices of Janis Joplin, and Joe Cocker!

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by archtopeddy
    In my mind there have been very few guitarist who have touched and altered as many genre of music as Jimi Hendrix. Yes, he was a rock star -- yet his impact on jazz, soul, R&B, blues, and in some ways indie, folk and reggae music cannot be denied. You can even hear his influence on acoustic artists like Jack Johnson, and while not noticed as much, I believe he even had his own way of expressing country music with his unique feel on songs like the Wind Cries Mary.

    But this is a jazz forum so in the spirit of tagging this thread with a somewhat more jazz connection, here are some excerpts about parallels between Jimi Hendrix and John Coltrane. This is from a commentary in the Free Jazz Collective by a fellow who goes by the handle “stef”.

    ---------

    "It was a coincidence, or maybe not, that in the sixties two musicians transformed their traditional music drastically, turning it inside out and upside down, turning tunes into art.

    "The first was John Coltrane, the second Jimi Hendrix.

    "What they did was comparable: unleash deepfelt emotions, re-inventing what they knew, re-think the scales, deconstruct and recreate, pushing the boundaries. Music before that time did not have the same expressive quality it has now. What we take for granted today, was unheard of before these two geniuses.

    "What has Hendrix got to do with jazz? Well, nothing with jazz per se, but surely with free jazz. He could just let go of rhythm and harmony and just do his thing on stage, exploring the unlimited potential of sound and impact, while always falling back on his feet."

    If you wish, to read the whole commentary, you can find it here: Jimi Hendrix ~ The Free Jazz Collective
    Really, REALLY well said. If I was stranded on a desert isle the situation would be less bleak with Coltrane's music. His final 10 years were ultra productive, and truly something special. So many piano players were influenced by Trane as well. How could any musician not be inspired by Trane?

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by bohemian46
    I was in Monterey (lived there) when Hendrix did his thing. A novelty act, nothing more. I have never changed my first hand, direct observational opinion.

    I'll go with Beck as my choice for the better musician, and other than Hendrix, the others are OK.

    I prefer "or" to vs, as that sets up an adversarial situation.
    What could be more adversarial than referring to Hendrix as a novelty act

    That's like saying Freddie Mercury couldn't sing

  12. #111

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    Wow, 2bop, you and I grew up in the same circumstances, I'd say. Same sort of influences--at the same time.

    Coltrane has been an almost incalculably huge influence on me--and everyone else. I firmly believe that he was a giant influence on Hendrix...with some mutual respect going back the other way, too.

    By the time I was 13, I too was enthralled by Motown and especially the Memphis version of soul music. I could really blow--like the British invaders--but I found myself editing my playing more and more, like the Detroit and Memphis guys did. It just seemed cooler, to me, to play the right notes, not ALL the notes. Yet--if the situation warranted--I was a punk kid who could whip out the big noise/big notes through the obligatory half stack.

    All the while, my friends would kid me about listening to Barney Kessel.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by bohemian46
    I was in Monterey (lived there) when Hendrix did his thing. A novelty act, nothing more. I have never changed my first hand, direct observational opinion.

    I'll go with Beck as my choice for the better musician, and other than Hendrix, the others are OK.

    I prefer "or" to vs, as that sets up an adversarial situation.
    Novelty act? Hmmm, I don't see how in all fairness, an objectively thinking musician, or anyone, can see just that in Hendrix. Did he steal your gf or something, it seems like a personal, negative thing to say.

  14. #113

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    Tiny Tim basically died onstage singing his hit version of "Tiptoe Through the Tulips."

    With showmanship like that you can't call his 'a novelty act.'

    Say what you will about Hendrix, but don't cross me on Tiny Tim.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by bohemian46
    Hendrix... A novelty act, nothing more.
    Bohemian, I respect your right to feel Jimi was nothing more than a novelty act, but I'm curious why you feel this way. Is it because he burned his guitar or his flamboyant mannerism or the way he dressed? None of that seems to have anything to do with his contributions as a musician or guitarist.

    It is show biz after all and if we marginalize artists for their showmanship artifacts then we'd be eliminating a lot of musicians from consideration including Miles, Sun Ra, Roland Kirk, etc. Do you consider them as novelty acts as well?

  16. #115

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    I am a few years too young to have been able to see Hendrix live, but I have a friend that did in Cleveland. He is a Hendrix fan, but he remembers the show being underwhelming. I don't think that he saw it as a novelty act, but he was in high school at the time. Kids went to shows. Then they went to school. A lot going on and it was just another show that he went to with his friends. Maybe the hype was later - I don't know.

    I related this before, but my older brother had a band in the late 60's. He is a couple of years older than me. He played a Mellotron, and they had a bassist, guitarist and drummer. I "played" the tamborine and did some back up vocals. "Light My Fire" was our brightest effort. The guitarist was a tall greasy haired kid that played left handed. Hendrix was his idol. I remember the week that Hendrix died and the guitarist quit. He said that he couldn't play anymore because he was so upset about it. I hope that he didn't give it up entirely, but I will never know.

  17. #116

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    I think there have always been "corn" or "novelty acts" out there on the circuit. There are serious musicians who know how to play their a@#es off, but stay right on the beat, stick to the melody, and ham things up. It would be unflattering to name names. Let's say that I know that _I_ have sold songs to audiences by smiling, glancing around the room at the audience, and playing with a few more slurs and finger vibrato while hanging right around the melody. Audiences--you know the ones--seem to appreciate this. Waxing boppish would give these folks "MEGO"--my eyes glaze over.

    Okay, I can't help it. I have watched Roy Clark--and I know he can play Charlie Parker stuff--ham it up and add triplets to the melody (Wow, look at those "lightning fingers!")--just to sell the song to the ample audience. Plenty of jazz artists do/have done the same thing. Eric Clapton walked off stage when Jimi Hendrix "sat in" with Cream in London and pulled out all of his tricks. Clapton, who was more of a slave to the blues, was offended by all the ham.

    Does this render Jimi Hendrix inconsequential? No more than it does Les Paul, who was about as hammy as they came. Les could and did play with Art Tatum, but he knew how to put food on the table. He was the master of reading an audience and giving them big slices of ham. Was he a novelty act. He would have affirmed this, in fact. Was he inconsequential? Hardly. He truly did revolutionize guitar--both the instrument itself, the way it was recorded, and music.

  18. #117
    [QUOTE=Greentone;909864]Eric Clapton walked off stage when Jimi Hendrix "sat in" with Cream in London and pulled out all of his tricks. Clapton, who was more of a slave to the blues, was offended by all the ham.

    That's a questionable interpretation. It is commonly believed that Clapton walked off during "Killing Floor" because he was shocked at how good Hendrix was doing a song that Clapton had not yet mastered.

  19. #118

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    There was a big mutual admiration society going on especially in London at the time. There was also Peter Green and Dave Mason among others. I think I recall that Clapton had just sent a guitar over to Jimi shortly before he died. On his recent tours Clapton has played Little Wing and Voodoo Chile as a tribute to Jimi.

    Giving guitars to other guitarists seems to be a particularly gentlemanly thing to do.

  20. #119

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    Is it just me, or does this look like a couple of fellas separated at birth...
    Attached Images Attached Images Eric Clapton vs. Jimmy Page vs. Jeff Beck vs. Jimi Hendrix-charlie-jimi-jpg 

  21. #120

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    I wrote and deleted a lot of hateful and dismissive things about the others in contention but I'll just say Jimi is by far and away my favorite of this bunch.

  22. #121

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    Nah. Clapton was doubly pissed off. (1) Jimi wasn't honoring the blues with his playing, and (2) Jimi was sitting in and hamming it up on another guy's established gig. The protocols weren't being observed. It wasn't a cutting session. Clapton had every right to be bothered.

    OTOH, I'd bet that the other guys were quite pleasantly surprised.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Nah. Clapton was doubly pissed off. (1) Jimi wasn't honoring the blues with his playing, and (2) Jimi was sitting in and hamming it up on another guy's established gig. The protocols weren't being observed. It wasn't a cutting session. Clapton had every right to be bothered.

    OTOH, I'd bet that the other guys were quite pleasantly surprised.
    Jimi didn't have to honor the blues, he was the blues!

  24. #123

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    Clapton was petulant. Big surprise.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil59
    Agree, Beck skilled player, boring.

    Hendrix entertaining, powerful.

    Page, disagree, first album (great guitar), derivative/rip-off, then moved on.

    Clapton brilliant re-inventor.
    Well said on all points. I would add “poetic” to the adjective list for Jimi.

    And regarding Jimmy Page, although his ripoff of Bert Jansch was unforgivable, most basic blues songs have always had their direct antecedents. (A boring reminder I realize, but....)

  26. #125

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    That's hilarious! Clapton, a Brit gets upset because Jimi, a descendent of slaves, wasn't honoring the blues. Some might say that Clapton didn't 'honor the blues' during his racist remarks. But I wouldn't say that.

  27. #126

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    Yeah...it's infinitely more likely that Clapton simply felt outgunned in a spectacular way and suffered a case of dramatic "shrinkage" that made him want to disappear. As he and many other peers have stated many times, Hendrix's arrival shifted the very ground that hotshot Brit blues guitarists stood on.

  28. #127

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  29. #128

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    Clapton - tasty, always on target with notes, technically very good, fine vocalist, excellent live performer.

    Beck - skillful, uninteresting musically, technical, least important of this group.

    Page - creative, flamboyant, musical, great synergy with band.

    Hendrix - creative, interesting, flamboyant, exciting performer, technologically advanced.

  30. #129

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    I don't want this to sound like I am picking on you, but of these four Beck is the only one that truly ventured into jazz with his own brand of jazz fusion. It is ironic to me that on a jazz guitar forum there have been people that have commented that Beck is uninteresting or boring. I don't hear it that way. If I do find him boring it is when he isn't playing his jazz fusion stuff.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    I don't want this to sound like I am picking on you, but of these four Beck is the only one that truly ventured into jazz with his own brand of jazz fusion. It is ironic to me that on a jazz guitar forum there have been people that have commented that Beck is uninteresting or boring. I don't hear it that way. If I do find him boring it is when he isn't playing his jazz fusion stuff.
    There's a difference between "venturing into jazz" and...jazz.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
    There's a difference between "venturing into jazz" and...jazz.
    What is it?

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    What is it?
    It's Jeff Beck, and not Wes or Barney or....

    But anyway, to my ears, Beck has basically nothing to say. Whatever the genre.

  34. #133

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    ... a lack of discernible melody ...while wearing a sharkskin suit

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    What is it?
    It's like cheese vs vegan cheese.
    During the times I'm vegan, I avoid cheese all together. I rather have avocado spread than a vegan cheese on my toast.

  36. #135

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    Jeff Beck had a very important album in the 90's, called Crazy Legs. It was a tribute to Cliff Gallup, who was his hero when he started playing. Of all Beck's albums that's the one I listened to the most.

    Here's live:


  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
    ...

    But anyway, to my ears, Beck has basically nothing to say. Whatever the genre.
    Fair enough. I like all types of music. I like Beck's fusion music.

  38. #137

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    First, I love all these guys. Jimi's solo on "Machine Gun" from the Band of Gypsys live at the Fillmore , New Years Eve, may be the most incredible "rock" solo ever recorded.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    What is it?
    Songs from old Broadway musicals played on an archtop guitar with a single pickup.

    Bonus points for dropping out of Berklee.

  40. #139

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    FWIW, when Cream was assembled, it was considered a jazz band fronted by a blues guitarist. Baker and Bruce came from jazz.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Songs from old Broadway musicals played on an archtop guitar with a single pickup.
    ...in a restaurant with people talking over, on a $50 gig. Beck's failed!

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    ...in a restaurant with people talking over, on a $50 gig. Beck's failed!
    Hey I resemble that remark (though I usually get more than $50).!

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Hey I resemble that remark (though I usually get more than $50).!
    Me too, but not that much more... I think 'venturing into jazz' worked out better for mr. Beck.

    And TBH, being a jazz guitarist myself(some would disagree with that), I'd say the world doesn't really need another guitar player doing songs from old Broadway musicals on an archtop guitar with a single pickup.

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    FWIW, when Cream was assembled, it was considered a jazz band fronted by a blues guitarist. Baker and Bruce came from jazz.
    I think it was more that Bruce and Baker considered cream to be jazz, than that the were considered more widely as such. Bruce said in several interviews that Cream was really a jazz band, but nobody told Eric. But they were billed as the "cream" of the London blues rock scene (which is where the name came from), and they don't sound anything like the jazz of the time. Rhythmically, they strike me as in a very different place from jazz, and their principal soloist (Clapton) really didn't play changes.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 11-10-2018 at 06:50 PM.

  45. #144

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    I’m too young (I was going to add “too off the beaten track” except I recalled Jimi briefly attended high school here) to have heard Jimi live. I’ve heard Clapton a couple of times (nice pop music). No Page.

    One of the best concerts I ever attended was Beck when he was touring with Jan Hammer (maybe the MO bass player was in the band too). This was a little after BxB. Hammer played Jeff into submission. Jeff finally just smiled and surrendered. Literally. Incredible musicianship.

    I have to admit that, at the time, I didn’t understand what the big deal about Jimi was, although I really liked AATW.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I think it was more that Bruce and Baker considered to be jazz, than that the were considered more widely as such. Bruce said in several interviews that Cream was really a jazz band, but nobody told Eric. But they were billed as the "cream" of the London blues rock scene (which is where the name came from), and they don't sound anything like the jazz of the time. Rhythmically, they strike me as in a very different place from jazz, and their principal soloist (Clapton) really didn't play changes.

    John
    British jazz and blues were wrapped up together in the early sixties. The predominant jazz style in Britain since the Second War was Trad, which was a lot closer to straightforward blues than the jazz being made in New York. Before British blues created its own identity, it was seen as a kind of jazz. The early blues bands were staffed by jazzmen, particularly Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated, which employed Jack Bruce, Charlie Watts, Long John Baldry, Ronnie Jones, Danny Thompson, Graham Bond, Cyril Davies, and Dick Heckstall-Smith, among others.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick


    British jazz and blues were wrapped up together in the early sixties. The predominant jazz style in Britain since the Second War was Trad, which was a lot closer to straightforward blues than the jazz being made in New York. Before British blues created its own identity, it was seen as a kind of jazz. The early blues bands were staffed by jazzmen, particularly Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated, which employed Jack Bruce, Charlie Watts, Long John Baldry, Ronnie Jones, Danny Thompson, Graham Bond, Cyril Davies, and Dick Heckstall-Smith, among others.
    Yea, that's what I read too. They probably wouldn't fair well on NYC jazz scene. But I love whatever they're where doing and calling it jazz, I'd probably preferred their version of it if I live in that time.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick


    British jazz and blues were wrapped up together in the early sixties. The predominant jazz style in Britain since the Second War was Trad, which was a lot closer to straightforward blues than the jazz being made in New York. Before British blues created its own identity, it was seen as a kind of jazz. The early blues bands were staffed by jazzmen, particularly Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated, which employed Jack Bruce, Charlie Watts, Long John Baldry, Ronnie Jones, Danny Thompson, Graham Bond, Cyril Davies, and Dick Heckstall-Smith, among others.
    Cream formed in '66 and the scene you're talking about had already started morphing into new scenes by then. I was responding to the statement that Cream were considered jazz, and I don't think is broadly the case (though, obviously, there are reasons people do think of them as jazz-like). From what I've seen of press from the time, interviews, etc., I don't think people were calling Cream jazz. Also, they were pretty consciously trying not to sound like the trad scene they came out of.

    John

  49. #148

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    I usually don't dig these kind of things, but:

    Hendrix: could be inconsistent, but my god when he was on, not sure anyone could be better. "Axis: Bold As Love" is my personal favorite album, and he plays great throughout, including that ringing, doublestop R&B kinda comping. Has anyone ever played an intro better than "little wing"? I think not. His comping on "Wait Until Tomorrow" is killing, and his comping on "up from the skies" makes me feel like I don't know how to play guitar. And his guitar solo on the title cut is just epic.

    Page: I love Led Zeppelin as much as anyone, but Page was a much better acoustic guitarist than electric, fairly sloppy soloist (Black Mountain Side vs. Whole Lotta Love come to mind). My favorite zeppelin is the "how the west was won" re-issue, which I think is ridiculously locked in and grooving.

    Clapton: A lot of people think "Crossroads" is one of the great blues/rock guitar solos ever, I tend to agree. Back on rmmgj, someone pointed out that clapton plays with virtually no swing whatsoever yet has near perfect time, which I think is true. His bluesbreakers and cream work was his peak as a guitarist, for me.

    Beck: I'll be honest, I never listened to a lot of Jeff Beck other than "Blow By Blow". What should I listen to? I like him, but he seems like way more of a guitarist's guitarist than the other cats in this poll.

    The two cats that are missing for me here are David Gilmour and Duane Allman, both of whom are supremely melodic soloists.

  50. #149

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    To me, Jeff Beck is saying something here, still one of my favourite tracks:


  51. #150

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    And of course Goodbye Porkpie Hat, it was this track that got me interested in jazz.