The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Not Jazz but -

    is anyone else also totally crap at what i'd (probably incorrectly) call traditional strumming? basically not really comping - perhaps playing open chords or barres like a folk or pop singer might accompany themselves with

    I hardly ever do it nowadays (probably years will go by until i'll try it again) but I had a little bash at playing a drifters tune last night and was terrified at how crap i sounded!

    it something I worked on as a beginner, and then since playing jazz I havent really approached. not sure if i have got worse in abscence, or just my ears now realise how rough and ready it sounds

    Guitar set up probs didn't help but found it quite funny that its a bit of a staple guitar technique and i never use it.

    am I alone? should i care?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    No, but I'm positive I'd be in the same boat as you if I didn't teach guitar lessons, because I'd just never really do it!

    Teaching has actually been great for keeping some of my less used technique aspects a bit sharper...because if I don't use it--I lose it!

  4. #3

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    I don't know if I'm a good strummer...I know I'm no Joe Strummer...but I play uke a fair amount, which is great for singalongs. Using the fingers for strumming really helps, on guitar or uke.

    My advice is get a cheap uke (they're so cheap, it's unbelievable) and a big book of songs like one of these and sing and strum til your fingers are sore:

    The Daily Ukulele Songbook

  5. #4

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    A common problem. I knew a guy who had it bad and to make it worse all he did was strum. He wasn't a jazz comper or lead player etc just a folky. When he did strum (cowboy chords) he would never play the high E string and let it ring. It was some kind of psychological head trip fear of music thing. I suggested that he practice on an electric playing along with recordings, fairly loud, and turn the guitar volume way down and strum away without a care. I never followed up with him so don't know how it worked out. Another way might be to get a ukulele. They're all about strumming and are less intimidating than a guitar.

    Check out rhythm player John Wilkinson, on the right with the 335, for a person that could strum.


  6. #5

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    Can't see it. The guy on the right on acoustic is just going up and down.

  7. #6

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    I think you should worry, yes. Strumming is a basic skill everyone need to master before moving to more complex things. At least that's my teaching philosophy and that's how I teach beginners.

    I always say think like a drummer, in strumming it's where you can apply this concept.

    Im not a big fan of folky style, it's a bit boring, even though I can do it no problem if needed..
    But my go to non jazz strummers are Pete Townsend, the Green Day guy, Johnny Ramone, Malcolm Young, any black player in any funk and RnB band.

    to me, if you can't strum your way through a rocknroll or pop tune, I don't buy your jazz either. Don't mean the OP particularly, just in general.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Can't see it. The guy on the right on acoustic is just going up and down.
    The guy on the right of the screen, not stage right. The camera isn't always on him. He's going up and down to but that's about all you can do when you strum a guitar. I think he's a good rhythm player even if he isn't all that audible, but that's the way rhythm guitar could/should be. That's why I suggested practicing playing along at a low volume.

  9. #8

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    Also Keith Richards and the Reggae players. imo the Caribbean Soca/Calypso players are some of the best. It's a very hard style to master and incredibly demanding on the left hand because even though it's mostly just vamps with triads (not many 7ths) on the top strings the hand is constantly engaged with pressure on the strings. Not a moments rest. The rhythm guitar has sort of taken over the chimey role of the steel drums in more traditional Calypso. Steel drums aren't used much in Soca except occasionally for a little color. Reggae's easy compared to it. I've seen Black American funk guitarists not be able to make it at all and the White guys don't even know where to start. A very specialized skill but if nothing else great for developing a loose picking hand.

    It's a rare non Jazz guitarist that can't strum. BB King and Santana are notable exceptions.


  10. #9
    Drifters aren't really "strumming" music usually. 12/8 or Latin feels usually?

    What tune was it?

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  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    Also Keith Richards and the Reggae players. imo the Caribbean Soca/Calypso players are some of the best. It's a very hard style to master and incredibly demanding on the left hand because even though it's mostly just vamps with triads (not many 7ths) on the top strings the hand is constantly engaged with pressure on the strings. Not a moments rest. The rhythm guitar has sort of taken over the chimey role of the steel drums in more traditional Calypso. Steel drums aren't used much in Soca except occasionally for a little color. Reggae's easy compared to it. I've seen Black American funk guitarists not be able to make it at all and the White guys don't even know where to start. A very specialized skill but if nothing else great for developing a loose picking hand.

    It's a rare non Jazz guitarist that can't strum. BB King and Santana are notable exceptions.

    I listen to soca a lot, my gf is from Trinidad, but I don't hear much guitar there tbh... Calypso is different, more guitars I can hear.

    It's a rare non Jazz guitarist that can't strum
    Are you saying JAZZ guitarists who can't strum is not rare? That would be worrying haha. I wonder how many jazz guitarists skipped playing basic rhythm guitar before moving to jazz?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I listen to soca a lot, my gf is from Trinidad, but I don't hear much guitar there tbh... Calypso is different, more guitars I can hear.

    Are you saying JAZZ guitarists who can't strum is not rare? That would be worrying haha. I wonder how many jazz guitarists skipped playing basic rhythm guitar before moving to jazz?
    I can hear rhythm guitar in Soca. I've played with lots of Caribbean guitar players and that Soca rhythm is a basic skill. It's not always front and center but it's in the mix. Maybe it's not so noticeable because it doesn't function like rhythm guitar we're used to in US or UK pop music.

    Yeah Buddy! It is worrying that lots of jazz guitarists don't have basic rhythm guitar skills together. But if you don't need them you don't need them.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Drifters aren't really "strumming" music usually. 12/8 or Latin feels usually?

    What tune was it?

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    I'm not an expert but I heard Milt Hinton who played on a lot of 50s RnB say that the Latin rhythm they used was called a Baion.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    I can hear rhythm guitar in Soca. I've played with lots of Caribbean guitar players and that Soca rhythm is a basic skill. It's not always front and center but it's in the mix. Maybe it's not so noticeable because it doesn't function like rhythm guitar we're used to in US or UK pop music.

    Yeah Buddy! It is worrying that lots of jazz guitarists don't have basic rhythm guitar skills together. But if you don't need them you don't need them.
    I would love to and will look more into soca guitar, it's fascinating! I'm pretty well versed in Jamaican ska, rocksteady, reggae styles, but soca and calypso need more looking into for sure.

    I think any pro jazz guitarist can do strum just fine, I can't imagine otherwise. But if it's true, and basic rhythm guitar is not pre requisite to play jazz today, that education sucks! That's how you learn subdividing the beat in simple 8ths, syncopation, and whatnot, how can you skip it?

    And what about 'comping'? It's just more evolved form of rhythm playing, you can't just go straight to that, right? You can't run before know how to walk, a common sense? lol, I'm just puzzled!

  15. #14

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    Jazz guitar started with strumming, pounding out the beat, then with the advent of bebop and more modern styles it became less prevalent.
    If you don't strum, you're missing out on an important function of the guitar as a rhythm instrument. And you gotta strum if you're gonna get funky!

  16. #15

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    I repeat, let's hear the OP, if he doesn't mind. It'll save an awful lot of time.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I would love to and will look more into soca guitar, it's fascinating! I'm pretty well versed in Jamaican ska, rocksteady, reggae styles, but soca and calypso need more looking into for sure.

    I think any pro jazz guitarist can do strum just fine, I can't imagine otherwise. But if it's true, and basic rhythm guitar is not pre requisite to play jazz today, that education sucks! That's how you learn subdividing the beat in simple 8ths, syncopation, and whatnot, how can you skip it?

    And what about 'comping'? It's just more evolved form of rhythm playing, you can't just go straight to that, right? You can't run before know how to walk, a common sense? lol, I'm just puzzled!
    First of all, Mr Gilpy is right. You've got to be able to strum before you can get funky. It is puzzling and may be at the root of why jazz doesn't get people moving the way it did in the past. Outside of the retro Swing thing maybe.

    Soca guitar is fascinating and really difficult. I'm not an expert on West African music but I hear some similarities. Maybe Zydeco to but I'm not sure. Although I've seen videos of Zydeco bands and the guitar players sometimes seem like they're just along for the ride. The reggae styles can be tricky but imo are a lot easier to do at least a passable job on. A variation has been common in RnB and Country in the 50s. A different accent but still the same basic scratch on 2 and 4. Lots of non Caribbean guitarists do a fine job on the Reggae and related styles but I've never heard one who could really make the Soca. I'm only fair at it but I lived in the Caribbean for a while. Unlike reggae, ska etc where the scratch is on 2 and 4 (assuming 4/4 time) it seems to me that in Soca the guitar is strumming fairly evenly accented 1/4 notes (down strums) or maybe 1/8th notes on the downbeats with some jangly chippy chop stuff in between each 1/4 note on the up strums. So the right hand has got to be really loose. It's stressful on the left hand because unlike the usual 2 and 4 scratches in reggae and other music the fretting hand is always engaged and never gets a rest.

  18. #17
    ha funny this thread of mine got a big response (by my standards!) when it was slightly light hearted but some great replies

    This was the tune in particular, a bit more complex than 'folk strumming' but I actually moved from this to thinking "damn i cant strum" and then revisted the basics.



    ( I actually dont know what rhythm that is if anyone would enlighten me to work on it? )

    I might record something if i get time. I do understand the basics of subdividing the beat in simple 8ths, syncopation

    any other good strummers out there to check out?

  19. #18

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    The guitarist on that date could actually have been Barry Galbraith. He along with Milt Hinton on bass and
    Osie Johnson on drums were the go to rhythm section on tons of 50s RnB recorded in NYC including the Drifters. Possibly Hank Jones on piano. The rhythm on that tune may have been the baion rhythm. Milt Hinton mentioned it in his autobiography as being a common one they used.

  20. #19

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    Thumb-strumming is inherently more inaccurate than strumming with a flat-pick. Using either method, though, you'll want to use a metronome when you practice. And you'll want to practice a lot.

    Many guitarists focus on fret-hand development at the expense of pick-hand development. I consider that a big mistake, because whether it's single-notes or chords, the two need to be precisely meshed to avoid the mush.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    Thumb-strumming is inherently more inaccurate than strumming with a flat-pick. Using either method, though, you'll want to use a metronome when you practice. And you'll want to practice a lot.

    Many guitarists focus on fret-hand development at the expense of pick-hand development. I consider that a big mistake, because whether it's single-notes or chords, the two need to be precisely meshed to avoid the mush.
    I used my thumb because I don't want to disturb the house banging away on an acoustic with a pick. But gigs usually require a pick.

    Strangely, I've never used a metronome. I don't own one and I've never lost rhythm yet when playing with others. So maybe it depends on the person.

    Obviously both hands need to coordinate but it's the pick hand that makes the music. Well, brain and heart first :-)

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I used my thumb because I don't want to disturb the house banging away on an acoustic with a pick. But gigs usually require a pick.

    Strangely, I've never used a metronome. I don't own one and I've never lost rhythm yet when playing with others. So maybe it depends on the person.

    Obviously both hands need to coordinate but it's the pick hand that makes the music. Well, brain and heart first :-)
    I get wanting to be quiet around the house. There were speedbumps in your groove, though. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just offering honest opinion, so please don't take it awry. Both hands make the music. Both. If the pick, or thumb, or finger, arrives at the string before the fretting fingers are set ... clunk.

  23. #22

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    Inspiration from master strummer Jorge Glem


  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    There were speedbumps in your groove, though.
    I expect there were, lots of them, but I'm not going to kill myself so don't worry :-)

    (Sitting here hunched over a computer is not ideal)

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet

    ( I actually dont know what rhythm that is if anyone would enlighten me to work on it? )
    I forgot to answer this. It's a basic Rumba rhythm.

    Tapping this should make it clear. The strong beats are the 1's. All the beats are just steady 4/4. It's the emphasis on the 1's that give it the rhythm. There's no need to 'bounce' the rhythm to produce the effect.

    Incidentally, if you're playing with a band the bass just hits the 1 and 3. Makes a nice juxtaposition against the latin beat:

    1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 - 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 etc.

    Folk fingerstyle is like this on a C chord:

    T/5 i/2 m/1 T/4 i/2 m/1 T/3 i/2 m/1

    The tune that comes immediately to mind (from long ago!) is All My Trials which is usually done in this rhythm. They repeat the bass twice for some reason.



    Here's another one a bit quicker:

    Last edited by ragman1; 05-26-2018 at 06:52 AM.

  26. #25
    really fascinating replies thanks all

    at work at the minute so will digest them properly later - haven't so much as seen a guitar since starting the thread

    Barry Galbraith put in a shift didnt he! finding him cropping up all over the place