The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Robben Ford talks about strumming, "the key to rhythm guitar" at about the 9 minute mark:


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    "I didn't know how to play rhythm behind somebody... because I'd been into JAZZ!"

    Yo

    His hand, of course, is going up and down but only connecting mostly on the downbeats. It's got to go up and down to keep the right flow going.

  4. #28

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    basinstreet,

    I came across this thread today, thanks so much for starting it. I am just plain awful at strumming and can use all of the help I can get. I am at work now but will try to digest this great replies tonight.

  5. #29
    Most of my real day-job music gig is NOT jazz style. But that being said, playing jazz has helped a great deal with everything else, and changed the way I view, hear, and play music in other styles, mostly re subdivision of the beat.

    The process has taught me that "feels" are mostly just subdivisions at lower common denominator subdivisions. If you want to get better at 8th note feels outside of jazz, work on playing 16th note patterns. Start with all-16ths, straight...then poly rhythms etc. The unintended consequence of playing something on EVERY subdivision for a while is that you get feels for real patterns almost "for free". You almost don't even have to practice them separately.

    What gives great players great "feel" is mostly the releases at the end of notes. These mostly occur on subdivisions "a level down" from conscious: so 16ths if you're talking 8ths. So,..... they're really too fast to practice consciously. The only way to learn to feel/play RESTS at that level is to practice playing actually PITCHES/chords at those subdivisions. Easier to practice something than nothing. Again, practice the notes and you get the releases for free. If you've never dug into this kind of work, you probably can't even hear what it is that you're NOT HEARING. This is the best stuff in music.

    By the way, I honestly believe that you get most of the straight 8th/16th stuff "for free", if you simply do all of this work at the level of 8th and 16th note triplets in 4/4...kind of 12/8 ballad in everything for a period of time.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    ha funny this thread of mine got a big response (by my standards!) when it was slightly light hearted but some great replies

    This was the tune in particular, a bit more complex than 'folk strumming' but I actually moved from this to thinking "damn i cant strum" and then revisted the basics.



    ( I actually dont know what rhythm that is if anyone would enlighten me to work on it? )

    I might record something if i get time. I do understand the basics of subdividing the beat in simple 8ths, syncopation

    any other good strummers out there to check out?

    That's what the strumming pattern is in this song:
    How to Improve Guitar Strumming?-photo-5-25-18-2-12-pm-jpg

    the X's are left hand muting. I don't know what the rhythm called, some kind of rumba maybe? Try it!

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    First of all, Mr Gilpy is right. You've got to be able to strum before you can get funky. It is puzzling and may be at the root of why jazz doesn't get people moving the way it did in the past. Outside of the retro Swing thing maybe.

    Soca guitar is fascinating and really difficult. I'm not an expert on West African music but I hear some similarities. Maybe Zydeco to but I'm not sure. Although I've seen videos of Zydeco bands and the guitar players sometimes seem like they're just along for the ride. The reggae styles can be tricky but imo are a lot easier to do at least a passable job on. A variation has been common in RnB and Country in the 50s. A different accent but still the same basic scratch on 2 and 4. Lots of non Caribbean guitarists do a fine job on the Reggae and related styles but I've never heard one who could really make the Soca. I'm only fair at it but I lived in the Caribbean for a while. Unlike reggae, ska etc where the scratch is on 2 and 4 (assuming 4/4 time) it seems to me that in Soca the guitar is strumming fairly evenly accented 1/4 notes (down strums) or maybe 1/8th notes on the downbeats with some jangly chippy chop stuff in between each 1/4 note on the up strums. So the right hand has got to be really loose. It's stressful on the left hand because unlike the usual 2 and 4 scratches in reggae and other music the fretting hand is always engaged and never gets a rest.
    Yea man, very insightful thanks! Can you send some video links for soca guitar? I tried but could find very little. One was from live carnival band, but I forgot very quick why I was watching it in the first place... there were some, ahem, distractions hahahaha Them know how to paaaarty!

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's what the strumming pattern is in this song:
    How to Improve Guitar Strumming?-photo-5-25-18-2-12-pm-jpg

    the X's are left hand muting. I don't know what the rhythm called, some kind of rumba maybe? Try it!
    Funny, that probably is what's going on, but I've never played that rhythm that way...

    I always play a downstroke on beat one, obviously, the two sixteenth are down strokes "dragged" through the chord, as is the first in the next pair of eighths.

    The last three beats are up strokes with rests in between, no muted strums...

    But I have no idea why I learned it that way...chain gang? He will break your heart? I dunno.

    Whatever it is, it's about as much fun as one can have playing a Barre chord.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Funny, that probably is what's going on, but I've never played that rhythm that way...

    I always play a downstroke on beat one, obviously, the two sixteenth are down strokes "dragged" through the chord, as is the first in the next pair of eighths.

    The last three beats are up strokes with rests in between, no muted strums...

    But I have no idea why I learned it that way...chain gang? He will break your heart? I dunno.

    Whatever it is, it's about as much fun as one can have playing a Barre chord.
    "dragged through'' is an option, sure. You could play a few different ways. But those last two muted 8ts on downbeat I think should be muted somehow, I do it with left and right (slightly throwing the wrist on the strings). the upbeat 8ths need to pop up.

    more percussiveness in the tone the better. I love rhythm guitar, actually more than comping, which could be excuse for a lazy right hand, but of course guys like Jim Hall, who was excellent strummer, got it all.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Yea man, very insightful thanks! Can you send some video links for soca guitar? I tried but could find very little. One was from live carnival band, but I forgot very quick why I was watching it in the first place... there were some, ahem, distractions hahahaha Them know how to paaaarty!

    • Sure, I'd be glad to, if I can find any. I would suggest listening to Soca tunes through good headphones. On the one I posted up thread, Spring Garden, I'm hearing guitar hard panned both right and left. When I first attempted Soca was with a West Indian band. We did a lot of reggae and soul covers and some light jazz. I had that all nailed but I couldn't get the Soca. The other guitar player said just play triads on the downbeats and he'd handle the ''chippy chop'' stuff. I practiced it hard and finally came up with a fair version of the real thing. I remember after the practice session when I first ''got it'' that I took my right hand and in my left and moved it in such a way that I heard and felt about 20 soft audible cracks from the outside (pinky side) of my right wrist like something really opened up for the first time. It sounded like shuffling a deck of cards.

      I don't think that barre chords in general are the best way to go. Since IMO the rhythm guitar in Soca has sort of replaced the steel drums common in Calypso the top four strings give it that chimey bell like sound. Actually a good way to think of Soca guitar is to think of it like ringing a bell on the downbeats. For sure the barred E chord (eg. ''A'' at the fifth fret) isn't generally a good choice for a voicing. A barred open ''A'' chord (eg. D at the fifth fret) is OK though. What's called among Country players a ''chicken claw'' voicing is good. We all know it. It's an open C position played up the neck without a full barre. eg. a D major would be x-5-4-2-3-x. To my ear Soca guitar chords are virtually all major triads. I don't hear 7ths major or Dom.

      I'm a Soca fanatic and feel that as far as rhythmic feel goes it's the ultimate. There's nothing like a West Indian set where they're burnin' the Soca. In my sometimes less than humble opinion attempts by non Caribbean musicians to get the Soca/Calypso feel don't work. Even Sonny Rollins' (who I love) St. Thomas and Brownskin Girl are not successful as Caribbean music (and in Sonny's defense he probably wasn't trying for that). I know Sonny's parents were from the West Indies but those 2 tunes don't move me except as decent Jazz tunes. I've listened to that stuff (plus things in that vein by Parker and Diz) with really hip West Indian musicians who can play everything from Soca to Giant Steps and they, as much as they love the musicians, give it the thumbs down. It's a cultural thing and like Hank Williams said that unless you've surveyed a lot of plowed ground over the backside of a mule you won't really get country music. Well, unless you've chopped a little sugar cane with a machete in a field with swarms of mosquitos and poisonous snakes and then rode into town standing on the back of a tractor to go out to a dance that night where people are breaking bottles while you're coming down with malaria you might not totally get the Soca vibe.

      The book by French anthropologist Claude Levi Strauss, Triste Tropique, might address some of these issues.
      I suppose it would be translated Sadness of the Tropics or Tropical Sadness. It's no surprise that the song Hotel California is often covered by West Indians. ''This could be heaven or this could be hell.''

      Anyway let me look for some good examples of Soca tunes with prominent rhythm guitar to post.










  11. #35

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    This record may have been the all time biggest seller in Soca history. I hear guitar mostly on the left channel.
    Also some rhythmic single note stuff which is cool.



    This is a good example of the fast chippy chop strum. You have to know how to listen for it. It's not in your face like power chords.



    The intro on this is clear rhythm guitar.




  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    This record may have been the all time biggest seller in Soca history. I hear guitar mostly on the left channel.
    Also some rhythmic single note stuff which is cool.



    This is a good example of the fast chippy chop strum. You have to know how to listen for it. It's not in your face like power chords.



    The intro on this is clear rhythm guitar.



    Diggin it! What I really would want to do though in a band like that is play bass, that's where the action is!

    Yea, you gotta have some serious stamina in your hands to play 7 min songs like that and probably more live, the groove is killing ha!

  13. #37

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    Oh yeah, those bass players are monsters. But I think the guitar players could be the hardest working guys from a chops standpoint. As much as I love Jazz etc as far as pure groove goes I'm Soca all the way.

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by rdwhitti
    basinstreet,

    I came across this thread today, thanks so much for starting it. I am just plain awful at strumming and can use all of the help I can get. I am at work now but will try to digest this great replies tonight.
    ha dont thank me, thank the contributors!

    glad you are getting something from it too

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

    What gives great players great "feel" is mostly the releases at the end of notes. These mostly occur on subdivisions "a level down" from conscious: so 16ths if you're talking 8ths. So,..... they're really too fast to practice consciously.

    By the way, I honestly believe that you get most of the straight 8th/16th stuff "for free", if you simply do all of this work at the level of 8th and 16th note triplets in 4/4...kind of 12/8 ballad in everything for a period of time.
    yeah i totally get where you are coming from here. I think one of the (million) reasons Benson sounds so clean is to do with when he releases the note. even his lines at staggering speeds, he never slurs them together (by accident anyway)

  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's what the strumming pattern is in this song:


    the X's are left hand muting. I don't know what the rhythm called, some kind of rumba maybe? Try it!
    thanks mate

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I don't know if I'm a good strummer...I know I'm no Joe Strummer...but I play uke a fair amount, which is great for singalongs. Using the fingers for strumming really helps, on guitar or uke.

    My advice is get a cheap uke (they're so cheap, it's unbelievable) and a big book of songs like one of these and sing and strum til your fingers are sore:

    The Daily Ukulele Songbook
    I see these every time I go to GC and have always sort of wanted one, but will it really help with guitar strumming? Aren't strumming techniques radically different between the uke and guitar? Not saying it won't help, I am genuinely curious.

  18. #42

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    I got a good tenor uke a few years ago and got obsessed with it for a while. I think it will help anyone's strumming and recommend it highly. My strumming was already good but it helped me a lot getting into the top 4 strings. It's tuned the same as a guitar just a 4th higher. It's interesting how playing different stringed instruments can help with the guitar. I played pedal steel for a while and I think it helped my guitar tone.

    btw watching the Robben Ford video above I noticed that he tended to strum all 6 strings. Nile Rogers is of the opinion that in order to be funky (not that funk is everything but after straight jazz comping it might be the most important rhythmic approach in general) one shouldn't ever play all 6 strings at once. He demonstrated a 4 bar groove using 3 chords and in each bar he was hitting different string groups.
    Last edited by mrcee; 05-25-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  19. #43

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    I play a lot of uke...unless you're going to use a pick (or strum guitar fingers only) I'd say the crossover is minimal.

    And for God's sake, NEVER USE A PICK ON UKULELE

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    NEVER USE A PICK ON UKULELE
    There you go, invaluable advice in life from one who knows. Next time I meet a sad person I'm going to tell them 'See, you used a pick on your ukulele, didn't you?'

    They won't know what I'm talking about but I'll feel great about it

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I play a lot of uke...unless you're going to use a pick (or strum guitar fingers only) I'd say the crossover is minimal.

    And for God's sake, NEVER USE A PICK ON UKULELE
    Ukeleles are why God caused felt picks to come into being.

  22. #46
    Both of the daily ukulele books are great. The leap year edition, the blue one, is probably better overall , but I would definitely have both. Great tunes , all of the chords laid out in order at the top.

    Ukulele is great side-instrument fun for would-be jazzers. Especially with these jumpin' jim books, ukulele books don't pull any punches , in terms of making things easy. Lots of different voicings per tune. Less of a tendency to simplify . More like chord melody almost, but they can get away with that, because it's just so much easier to play.

    Playing ukulele gets you away from the guitarist over-focus on bass and building and orienting everything from bass notes. Really gets you more in tune with hearing top voices moving, hearing more melodically etc.

    And of course it's great for rhythm as well. Great for getting away from playing everything on the beat where bass and drums already live anyway. You learn to do more with SPACE and learn more minimal approaches to rhythm. You learn a lot more about IMPLYING the beat, as opposed to simply PLAYING the beat the way we guitarists often do.

    If you have kids or somewhat reluctant friends or spouses, ukulele is a perfect entry point into playing some music , because it's so accessible. You can literally have a friend who's over for a visit pick one up and start playing with you in a few minutes.

    Great music outreach device honestly. You need more than one for sure. Get a decent concert size for yourself and then a couple of cheap soprano bangers for kids and other folks to pick up and play along.

    Skip the plectrums. Seriously.

  23. #47

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    The uke is a good instrument for song writing as well. George Harrison was a uke fanatic and wrote a lot if not most of his songs on it.

  24. #48

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    I picked up a cheap soprano uke at GC while they were on sale. I don't know if it will help me with my guitar strumming or not but I think it is going to be loads of fun! I can keep it by my computer and play along with songs on YouTube whenever I feel like it. Cool!

  25. #49

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    Can't strum ... and can't use a pick either. Somewhere about 1980 I ran out of picks and decided to use my fingers until I could get to the music store to buy more. Still haven't gone. If Joe Pass and Jim Soloway don't need them, neither do I.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Vinnie
    Can't strum ... and can't use a pick either. Somewhere about 1980 I ran out of picks and decided to use my fingers until I could get to the music store to buy more. Still haven't gone. If Joe Pass and Jim Soloway don't need them, neither do I.
    Haven't gone to the music store since 80's! Wow do you still have the same set of strings on too?