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  1. #101

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    We got anybody in here that also plays bass? Cause Zappa had not only some great drummers but also had some virtuosic bass players in his groups!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    I already mentioned Ohearn, Max Bennett, Tom Fowler, Arthur Barrow, and Scott Thunes to name just a few!

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  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    I already mentioned Ohearn, Max Bennett, Tom Fowler, Arthur Barrow, and Scott Thunes to name just a few!

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    Max Bennett especially is a jazz bass player only plays double bass!

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  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Max Bennett especially is a jazz bass player only plays double bass!

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    I have seen Max Bennett play live many times and he played an electric bass.

    If you google Bennett you can see many photos of him with an electric bass.

    Anyhow, Max is a fine musician that was good at straight ahead as well as fusion jazz.

  6. #105

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    You know, I could talk and write about FZ 24 hours a day, so forgive me for chiming in here more than I probably should.

    Listening to some of his late-middle stuff--Sheik Yerbouti, You Are What You Is, Them or Us--I remain impressed with his arrangements and the virtuosity of his performers, as well as the quirkiness of his humor, even if they don't have the depth of the fusion stuff.

    Even Ya Hozna is pretty interesting when played at high volume--rather hallucinogenic, once might say.

    The potty stuff...well, let's just say FZ is in the long tradition of Chaucer, Rabelais, Mozart, Bosch, Dali, Crumb and so many others who use scatology and sex as a window into art and philosophy.

    He has so many tropes, like Bosch's funnel hats and demons and Dali's clocks and crutches...

    Poodles
    Ponchos
    Sausage
    Leather
    Bondage
    Mud Shark
    Zircon-encrusted tweezers
    STD's

    And of course the various scatological references that pop up his entire career. (In France, for instance...)

    I read that on later records he would literally just superimpose a previously recorded solo (mainly guitar) onto a new song--xenochrony. Doubt that he was too lazy to play a new one, but like an electronics hoarder who finally finds a use for that volume knob he had been saving since the 70's...

    Anyway, I guess my point is that there are an infinite number of facets to Frank's art. The more one looks at it, the more strange and astounding it really is.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    You know, I could talk and write about FZ 24 hours a day, so forgive me for chiming in here more than I probably should.

    Listening to some of his late-middle stuff--Sheik Yerbouti, You Are What You Is, Them or Us--I remain impressed with his arrangements and the virtuosity of his performers, as well as the quirkiness of his humor, even if they don't have the depth of the fusion stuff.

    Even Ya Hozna is pretty interesting when played at high volume--rather hallucinogenic, once might say.

    The potty stuff...well, let's just say FZ is in the long tradition of Chaucer, Rabelais, Mozart, Bosch, Dali, Crumb and so many others who use scatology and sex as a window into art and philosophy.

    He has so many tropes, like Bosch's funnel hats and demons and Dali's clocks and crutches...

    Poodles
    Ponchos
    Sausage
    Leather
    Bondage
    Mud Shark
    Zircon-encrusted tweezers
    STD's

    And of course the various scatological references that pop up his entire career. (In France, for instance...)

    I read that on later records he would literally just superimpose a previously recorded solo (mainly guitar) onto a new song--xenochrony. Doubt that he was too lazy to play a new one, but like an electronics hoarder who finally finds a use for that volume knob he had been saving since the 70's...

    Anyway, I guess my point is that there are an infinite number of facets to Frank's art. The more one looks at it, the more strange and astounding it really is.
    Yeah those words piece together his whole works. The project object! It's a DADA concept. Not to many people know what a profound influence Dadaism was on Frank.

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  8. #107

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    I could talk about Mr. Zappa all day also. One of my favorite subjects inside my very favorite subject music.

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  9. #108

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    The problem is most people don't wanna talk about music all day long. That's why I like this thread so much. I remember once in middle school a friend of mine said man all you ever wanna talk about is music. So since my dad was a former college basketball player I took it upon myself to talk about that and football more often haha.

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  10. #109

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    Does anybody here listen to Captain Beefheart?

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  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Chick Corea could burn through Giant Steps on request, granted on a different instrument but he could burn thru it nevertheless!

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    By "CC", I think he meant Charlie Christian, who obviously died long before GS....

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Does anybody here listen to Captain Beefheart?

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    "Sam, with the showing-scalp flattop, particular about the point it made...Sam was a basket case!"

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    By "CC", I think he meant Charlie Christian, who obviously died long before GS....
    And therefore it is impossible to know whether CC could have played it or not. Sure he could have if he'd put in the time.

    But it shows how jazz was changing... And priorities of musicians change.

    Stuff like GS was not in the old rep. In the case of Christian's time, Tea for Two was considered a bit of a tricky one cos if it's strange form and unexpected modulations from C to Ab, probably. Not super easy, but not Coltrane changes either.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    By "CC", I think he meant Charlie Christian, who obviously died long before GS....
    I was talking about Chick Corea not Charlie Christian. Don't know where that came from? Forgive my ignorance but who is GS?

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  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    "Sam, with the showing-scalp flattop, particular about the point it made...Sam was a basket case!"
    Bongo Fury yes. But that's with Zappa. How about the Captain with his magic band? I was listening to Ice cream for crow the other day!

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  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    I was talking about Chick Corea not Charlie Christian. Don't know where that came from? Forgive my ignorance but who is GS?

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    You replied to a post about ‘CC’ as if it referred to Chick Corea, when it actually meant Charlie Christian.

    GS = Giant Steps.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    You replied to a post about ‘CC’ as if it referred to Chick Corea, when it actually meant Charlie Christian.

    GS = Giant Steps.
    Oh don't recall that but I trust ya. Probably had Corea on the brain at the time or something.

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  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Oh don't recall that but I trust ya. Probably had Corea on the brain at the time or something.

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    Actually yeah I remember now it reminded me of the video on YouTube of Chick playing and explaining giant steps. But you're right that was definitely before Charlie C's time!

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  19. #118

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    Of course in Zappa's corner, we have C.A.S.H.

    Church of American Secular Humanism - Zappa Wiki Jawaka

  20. #119

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    Listening to the complete Roxy recordings...

    What an awesome band...what Zappa and his players were able to do live...and the audience interaction...

    George Duke, the funkiest clavinet player ever...

    Outstanding. Making me nostalgic for seeing them live.

    On the other hand, there's Uncle Meat--some cool if very eccentric compositions. Varese meets Ellington by way of Andy Kaufman.

    Zappa and those guys were just so far from what else was going on around them. A truly singular talent.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Does anybody here listen to Captain Beefheart?

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    Zoot Horn Rollo was an influence on my slide guitar playing.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Does anybody here listen to Captain Beefheart?
    don van vliet was an influence on my everything!

    cheers

    ps- zoot horn bill harkleroad..later...turns out he's a jazz lover


  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    don van vliet was an influence on my everything!

    cheers

    ps- zoot horn bill harkleroad..later...turns out he's a jazz lover

    Doesn't surprise me one bit. So much of Don's catalogue especially with them has so many jazz and modern classical elements!

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  24. #123

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    ^ of course!!


    some prime zoot- (stage left -red jacket-red 330)


    "the moon was a drip on a dark hood"




    cheers

  25. #124

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    Okay so how about this Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart? Who's music would you choose. I love them both but believe it or not I know some people who love Don but hate Zappa Haha! That's always baffled me because lots of people discover Beefheart thru Zappa!

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  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by FZ2017
    Okay so how about this Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart? Who's music would you choose. I love them both but believe it or not I know some people who love Don but hate Zappa Haha! That's always baffled me because lots of people discover Beefheart thru Zappa!

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    TBH for awhile there in the 70's I literally thought Captain Beefheart WAS Frank Zappa recording under a different name. (This is before the internet.) I still think they are twin sons from different mothers.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    TBH for awhile there in the 70's I literally thought Captain Beefheart WAS Frank Zappa recording under a different name. (This is before the internet.) I still think they are twin sons from different mothers.
    Mothers of invention heh!

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  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    TBH for awhile there in the 70's I literally thought Captain Beefheart WAS Frank Zappa recording under a different name. (This is before the internet.) I still think they are twin sons from different mothers.
    Frank Zappa and Leon Redbone are the same guy.

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Frank Zappa and Leon Redbone are the same guy.
    Funny I never associated FZ with Vaudeville and Tin Pan Alley lol.

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  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    agree..tho there were wildcards like jeff beck and peter green in the mix...they each had their own variations of style that made them killer
    And Jimmy Page and Richard Thompson and (a little later) Robert Fripp...

    There must've been something in the water in England in the mid-to-late 60's. Everybody wanted to pick up an electric guitar and wail away--mainly imitating American blues but some English folk thrown into the mix as well.

    As far as the Americans, you had Jimi, Mike Bloomfield, Terry Kath...

    I don't know where Zappa's guitar comes from. His playing is clearly blues-based but so outside the mainstream. I think that's why I have always dug it so much.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    And Jimmy Page and Richard Thompson and (a little later) Robert Fripp...

    There must've been something in the water in England in the mid-to-late 60's. Everybody wanted to pick up an electric guitar and wail away--mainly imitating American blues but some English folk thrown into the mix as well.

    As far as the Americans, you had Jimi, Mike Bloomfield, Terry Kath...

    I don't know where Zappa's guitar comes from. His playing is clearly blues-based but so outside the mainstream. I think that's why I have always dug it so much.
    Yeah but Fripp's playing seems to be more eclectic than just blues based. I did get to see Richard Thompson in Atlanta a couple years back.

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  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    agree..tho there were wildcards like jeff beck and peter green in the mix...they each had their own variations of style that made them killer

    but for flat out full throttle electric blues improv & beyond it'd be hard to beat clapton in cream..he influenced everybody..they called him god!!

    mclaughlin was still playin flatops during cream era..he was not blazing yet...his first electric blazer was devotion..in 1970!...which he cut in jimi's old studio-electric ladyland on 8th st nyc

    cheers
    Yeah I don't think McLaughlin has his alt picking together yet. But he was highly rated in London as an excellent and versatile musician with great feel and had played with Ginger and Jack Bruce in GBO, which is why I mentioned him. But, of course, they didn't want a jazz guy....

    BTW I was under the impression McLaughlin was well known at that point as an R&B player as well as a jazzer? Maybe my info is bad.

    Anyway, I always preferred Peter Green to Clapton, but my appreciation of Eric has grown as I've learned more about music. Green is still the absolute pinnacle of the Brit Blues players, to me.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    And Jimmy Page and Richard Thompson and (a little later) Robert Fripp...

    There must've been something in the water in England in the mid-to-late 60's. Everybody wanted to pick up an electric guitar and wail away--mainly imitating American blues but some English folk thrown into the mix as well.

    As far as the Americans, you had Jimi, Mike Bloomfield, Terry Kath...

    I don't know where Zappa's guitar comes from. His playing is clearly blues-based but so outside the mainstream. I think that's why I have always dug it so much.
    Rory ****ing Gallagher
    Not just England

    A large proportion of the great blues and rock guitarists in London came from or spent time in West London, as well. Hounslow, Ealing, Twickenham places like that. Look it up, it's hilarious.

    The environment produces the musician.

  34. #133

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    Plus one on Green and Gallagher. It wasn't just the notes - although the notes were there, it was the feel, the throbbing soul. Which is not to diminish EC's work, which had both a-plenty, but Peter and Rory's tone, touch, and taste just spoke to me.

  35. #134

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    big peter green fan...as killer a blues player as he was, he also had eclectic nuance...you can hear some hank marvin shadows in there...brilliant player

    but his rhythm section mcvie/fleetwood were not of the same improvisatory/jazz level as bruce and baker..in cream all three players were edging each other on....so much propulsion!!!...thats how their infamous 17 minute live spoonful sounds so..dangerous!!


    big fan of rory as well..but his early band -taste- was definitely cream inspired

    funny just watched a recent interview with van halen..and he mentions that clapton was the only guitar player he ever really listened to early on...and mentioned (as i wrote ^) that they called him -god!! haha

    cheers

    ps -other great player i'd mention is gary moore...a tad bit later, but influenced by all the best...owned peter greens guitar...stunning blues player but also dabbled in fusiony stuff...and was good!

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    funny just watched a recent interview with van halen..and he mentions that clapton was the only guitar player he ever really listened to early on...and mentioned (as i wrote ^) that they called him -god!!

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    big peter green fan...as killer a blues player as he was, he also had eclectic nuance...you can hear some hank marvin shadows in there...brilliant player

    but his rhythm section mcvie/fleetwood were not of the same improvisatory/jazz level as bruce and baker..in cream all three players were edging each other on....so much propulsion!!!...thats how their infamous 17 minute live spoonful sounds so..dangerous!!


    big fan of rory as well..but his early band -taste- was definitely cream inspired

    funny just watched a recent interview with van halen..and he mentions that clapton was the only guitar player he ever really listened to early on...and mentioned (as i wrote ^) that they called him -god!! haha

    cheers

    ps -other great player i'd mention is gary moore...a tad bit later, but influenced by all the best...owned peter greens guitar...stunning blues player but also dabbled in fusiony stuff...and was good!
    Yea Eddie always said he copied Clapton the most, his main hero.

    It's been said before, but I agree, Clapton the guitar God was his Gibson years. Once he switched to strat, that sound was gone, he's got mellow. More mature maybe, but less rocking and edgy.

    Gary Moore was another monster who could sure play with the best of them, but I feel he was more popular in Europe. He sure was everyone's guitar hero in Russia. Anybody who wanted to play blues based solos looked up to him first.

  38. #137

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    ps- in case anyone cares...its a great interview with eddie van halen...it's a very proper (smithsonian) interview...i was never a huge fan, (had already heard holdsworth & halsall) but props



    cheers

  39. #138

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    Well no offense to anyone, they're great guitarists--me and my mates were pretty eclectic back in the day but we had never heard of Rory or Peter Green or Gary Moore. Some guys just didn't make it across the Atlantic.

    Or maybe EC had better management...

  40. #139

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    Peter Green is a great musician but I never got into Fleetwood Mac.

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  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Well no offense to anyone, they're great guitarists--me and my mates were pretty eclectic back in the day but we had never heard of Rory or Peter Green or Gary Moore. Some guys just didn't make it across the Atlantic.

    Or maybe EC had better management...
    I think Cream toured the US pretty heavily didn’t they?

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think Cream toured the US pretty heavily didn’t they?
    Definitely, they were one of the biggest bands in the world in 67/68.

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  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    I have to say I find the Clapton influence very hard to hear. You would say Jimi!

    And yet, I don’t doubt him. Influence works in mysterious ways.

    Allan Holdsworth loved Django, Charlie Christian and Jimmy Raney on guitar.

    But both players looked beyond the guitar for inspiration....

  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    That's a great job, bravo Eddie! I only got to the first solo, never attempted the 2nd. I did copy Tony Iommy pretty thoroughly though. But this Clapton solo is pure genius, and Eddie got every lick right with perfect timing!

    Man, I'm just so inspired by those cats, more than I ever been by jazz guitarists... what am I doing here? lol

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's a great job, bravo Eddie! I only got to the first solo, never attempted the 2nd. I did copy Tony Iommy pretty thoroughly though. But this Clapton solo is pure genius, and Eddie got every lick right with perfect timing!

    Man, I'm just so inspired by those cats, more than I ever been by jazz guitarists... what am I doing here? lol
    There all musicians and it's all music my friend.

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  46. #145

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    Not sure if this settles the issue of Frank being a "jazz guitarist", but it's the only Zappa story I have....

    A few years ago I'm playing a duo gig at a wedding in a fancy mansion in Connecticut. A drunken guest wanders over to us on break, and loudly proclaims how much he loves all kinds of music, going on and on about all the stuff he listens to, not really talking to us but at us. At one point, he mentions that he just got the new Zappa box set and was listening to the albums on the drive here. The bassist, Jay Anderson, asks, "Which albums? Because I'm on a few of them...."



    PK

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    Not sure if this settles the issue of Frank being a "jazz guitarist", but it's the only Zappa story I have....

    A few years ago I'm playing a duo gig at a wedding in a fancy mansion in Connecticut. A drunken guest wanders over to us on break, and loudly proclaims how much he loves all kinds of music, going on and on about all the stuff he listens to, not really talking to us but at us. At one point, he mentions that he just got the new Zappa box set and was listening to the albums on the drive here. The bassist, Jay Anderson, asks, "Which albums? Because I'm on a few of them...."



    PK
    We already knew that Frank would employ jazz musicians because he always looked for the best players. But that's still a bitchin story! May I ask which albums he played bass on?

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  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    Not sure if this settles the issue of Frank being a "jazz guitarist", but it's the only Zappa story I have....

    A few years ago I'm playing a duo gig at a wedding in a fancy mansion in Connecticut. A drunken guest wanders over to us on break, and loudly proclaims how much he loves all kinds of music, going on and on about all the stuff he listens to, not really talking to us but at us. At one point, he mentions that he just got the new Zappa box set and was listening to the albums on the drive here. The bassist, Jay Anderson, asks, "Which albums? Because I'm on a few of them...."



    PK
    Did he play electric bass on that gig or does he just play double?

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  49. #148

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    It was upright bass on our gig. Not sure about the Zappa sides. As one might guess, the drunk guy just kept talking about himself, so we never got to find out what Jay's experience of recording with FZ was like....

    PK

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    It was upright bass on our gig. Not sure about the Zappa sides. As one might guess, the drunk guy just kept talking about himself, so we never got to find out what Jay's experience of recording with FZ was like....

    PK
    Lol figures damn winos. I'm a wino man!

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  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Only just listened to this. Heh, EVH learned those solos! Nice.