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The Grateful Dead were precisely a psychedelic rock band. The extended jamming goes with that. Think of "Grape Jam" by Moby Grape, the long tracks from the Doors, the long versions of Eight Miles High by the Birds. The country influences go with that also, oddly enough, even though we associate psychedelia with decadent flights of affluent fancy and country with down-to-earth rural life. Remember that the Byrds did Sweetheart of the Rodeo and then spun off the Flying Burrito Brothers. So the question is not really on the Grateful Dead exclusively. Psychedelia was very eclectic. The Jazz influence on Spirit was very obvious, for instance--they actually sounded like Jazz. Eight Miles High was influenced by Trane. Is Psychedelia Jazz? Nah, listen to Truckin' (different song, obviously) by Fats Waller. Now thaaaat's Jazz.
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06-30-2016 10:32 PM
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I would mostly agree with this but I'm interested in the points of overlap between psychedelia and jazz. If you read The Electric Kool-Ade Acid Test by Tom Wolfe (and you should), he talks about Ornette Coleman records being played at Ken Kesey's ranch (members of the Dead were often there). The Free Jazz thing had a lot of overlap with psychedelia (IIRC Didn't Ornette do an album with Jerry?) And it's worth remembering that a lot of the people who were hanging around the hippie scene had been beatniks, and loved jazz.
Originally Posted by Binyomin
It's also interesting to note that about the time the members of the Dead were coming up, Rock and Roll was out of fashion. It was considered juvenile and not "socially conscious". Folk and blues were the thing (at least among the intelligensia). It wasn't until the Beatles hit that rock began to be taken seriously.
The way I see it, psychedelia happened because of the confluence of a few factors. The popularity of country, folk, and blues, the slightly older ex-beatnik love of jazz, the re-emergence of rock as a cultural force, and the LSD-influenced interest in what the subconscious could do if it were freed from its usual constraints. The Dead embody this fusion better than anyone else I can think of.
Then on the other end of the spectrum you had guys like Frank Zappa, fusing 20th Century concert music with jazz (Some of the stuff on The Grand Wazoo sound a bit like some of Dave Holland's big band stuff) and rock, and coming up with something that *sounded* psychedelic, but didn't have the collaborative, improvisational thing happening.
In my old Fusion group, we used to do a cover of Pink Floyd's "Interstellar Overdrive." Completely anarchic free jamming. Lots of fun, but occasionally left the audience scratching their heads.
More recently, consider Medeski, Martin, and Wood. Are they jazz? I'd say yes, but their main following is the jamband crowd, and there's more than a whiff of psychedelia to what they do as well.
So, there are a lot of points of contact and overlap there, and I find that very interesting.
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Another "point of overlap" between Psychedelic Rock and Jazz: "Feel like I'm fixin' to die rag" is Muskrat Ramble set to words.
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This thread brings new meaning to the term "Jazz is dead"....
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Don't think the dead are jazz but they wrote some good tunes, good.muscianship haven't heard any other jam band that could write a good catchy pop tune
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Worth a listen.
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The core members are probably best defined by their early influences and obsessions.
Pigpen was pure blues and R&B.
Billy started as a jazz drummer.
Bobby was just a kid, and probably was the most rooted in Rock and Roll, but also thee least formed musically at the start.
Phil was heavily into contemporary classical, avante garde, and jazz a la Coltrane.
Jerry was almost a pure folkie, mainly a banjo player.
Best description of the Deads style, at least when they were on, was David Crosby's "electric Dixieland". They were truly polyphonic when at their best. Not Jazz in any modern sense, but truer to the original spirit of jazz than many jazz players.
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I was much more interested in Jerry Garcia's work with David Grisman than the Dead. Grisman helped me get interested in a bunch of other stuff.
Last edited by KirkP; 07-09-2016 at 01:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by KirkP
I'll listen to anything that has Jerry on it, and the Garcia/Grisman stuff is some of my favorite. I've probably learned more about improvisation from listening to Jerry than any other single source, and -- not to go off on a tangent -- this site in particular has been especially helpful:
www.GratefulGuitarLessons.com - Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir Guitar lessons: Learn Grateful Dead
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So I saw Dead & Co. last night, and I had a few thoughts about some of the topics raised on this thread. First a bit of background / mini review:
I've seen the Dead in several incarnations. I saw the Grateful Dead several times back when Jerry was alive. This would have been between about '84 and whenever it was that Brent Midland died. I never saw any shows with Vince Welnick. After Jerry died, I saw "The Dead" with Jimmy Herring on guitar. Jimmy is one of my favorites (He's got two solo albums - both worth a listen, as is his work with Jazz is Dead). That show was a big disappointment. Herring played like Garcia all night, while I was excited to hear what his style would bring to the stew. Also, Bobby Weir was the only singer, so they did a lot of blues type stuff. So basically, it was a Ratdog show. Meh.
I was expecting much the same last night (and maybe worse, because this was at Fenway Park, and to me, the bigger a venue is, the worse it is), but I was pleasantly surprised. So Dead & Co. is Bobby, Billy, and Micky, with John Mayer on guitar and vox, Oteil Burbage on bass, and a keyboard player whose name escapes me at the moment. I knew Mayer could play, but I always thought of him as a pop guy, so I wasn't sure what to expect. Oteil, if you're not familiar with him, is a monster. The guy's got chop out the yinyang and could certainly hang with anyone - jazz players included (interestingly Oteil got his start in Aquarium Rescue Unit, along with Jimmy Herring).
In short, I was blown away. Mayer was incredible. He did indulge in a few Garcia-isms, but mostly he played like himself, and he sang a bunch of tunes which A) gave the 69-year-old Bobby a break, and B) allowed them to do material that they probably wouldn't have attempted if Bobby had been the only singer. And the material they did was from the more ambitious end of the Dead's catalog. (Help on the Way / Slipknot, St. Steven., Terrapin Station, Dark Star). Oteil did not try to play like Phil Lesh, which was a good call, because I think only Phil can get away with some of the stuff he does.
When I saw The Dead with Jimmy Herring, I did notice something: I'd never really thought about it, but Jerry Garcia had immense charisma. Even though he mostly stood in one place and mostly stared at his shoes when he was playing, you still wanted to watch him. Jimmy Herring doesn't have that kind of charisma. He doesn't completely lack presence, but he doesn't have the high-wattage type of charisma that Jerry did. Mayer does have it, though.
Mayer also has the spirit of the music. He didn't make the show about him, and he interacted with the band in a way that was more characteristic of the Dead in their earlier years before they stopped listening to each other, or (dare I say it?) a jazz player. It didn't sound like the Grateful Dead, but it sure felt like a Grateful Dead show.
A couple of random observations: Mayer played a PRS McCarty for most of the show. Hearing it, I realized that that guitar has its own voice, and it's been around long enough to have become somewhat iconic. Bobby mostly played a Strat. Kind of interesting choices, considering that Mayer is normally a Strat player, and Bobby used to play Modulus guitars (I think).
One of the thoughts I had during the show was this: Back when I was a rock guy whenever I'd jam with random people, we'd almost always play a lot of Dead tunes. And it kind of occurred to me, that these were our "standards". We'd play "Scarlet Begonias" the way jazz guys play "Stella". And deadheads, while they might not be jazz-trained, are used to listening, so sometimes, the solos would depart from the song form quite a bit. It may not have sounded like jazz, but it sure FELT like jazz.
Another thought: They closed the show with U.S. Blues. It's a great tune, and I think it's one that a singer could bring to a jam session and it would sound really good being done by jazz guys.
(A final, non-music related thought: Sexagenarians really shouldn't try to party like they did when they were in their 20s. It's just sad to see old guys jamming on their air guitars and puking in the aisles. That stuff is cute when you're 20. When you're 67, it's kinda pathetic.)
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Couldn't resist
Attachment 33669
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Of course, it should be "Drivin' that train" and not "Ridin' that train."
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So in the secret lives of pets dogs can drive now, too? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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The Dawg/Jerry stuff on "So What" is a nice example of an ability to trust what's going to happen, without needing to be premeditated. It isn't guaranteed to work (I heard plenty of really awful things at Dead shows and some stunningly wonderful things as well) but when it does, wow. It's nice to hear a musical conversation between old friends.
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Sure. The San Francisco music scene was heavily influences by the Beats especially those who lived in the Bay Area like Neal Cassady, Ferlinghetti, Gary Snyder, etc. They were of the jazz generation and were heroes to Jerry and Bob in particular. MG described Cassady as "our speed freak uncle who wanted to fill in the gaps in our knowledge about Beat literature," etc. The Pranksters were a main route of connection between the bands and the Beats. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Bill Graham was another link. Bill was a jazz fan and would book real jazz musicians alongside the Bay Area bands in hopes of expanding the listening of the audience. Heck, Miles opened for the Dead and later released those shows as live records- Bill Kreutzmann said the Dead was profoundly embarassed and intimidated to be going on after Miles's band. As they should have been! ;-)
For the Dead, Phil was the primary conduit that brought jazz in as an influence. He played jazz trumpet before taking up the bass, studied music in college and modern composition with Luciano Berio (along with Steve Reich, etc.). He turned the band on to Coltrane, in particular, as well as Miles, Ornette, etc. This set the stage for Weir, who was feeling constrained in the role of "rock rhythm guitarist" to study the approaches of McCoy Tyner, Bill Evans, etc., to comping behind a soloist doing extended improvisations. Of course the band fired him while he was figuring that out and was playing atrociously, but since he kept turning up to rehearsals and gigs anyway it didn't ultimately matter. Plus he was the one who attracted chicks...
There is something else, though, which is that jazz was just in the air still even in the mid-60s. I remember seeing Dizzy, Clark Terry, etc., on variety shows when I was a kid during prime time TV (I'm nearly 57). You could still hear jazz tunes on popular radio. These guys were born in the mid to late 40s and grew up hearing jazz casually. The same is true for the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, etc. I think you can hear this in the way they wrote songs and why many of those songs are as great as they are. Your current rock music composer born in the late 80s or more likely the 1990s just doesn't even have that exposure at all, hence the really limited and boring (or even absent) harmonic structure of most modern popular music. But there are glimmers of hope of kusic getting a little more interesting and less puerile (Lady Gaga recording with Tony Bennett, hip hop artists playing with Ron Carter and other jazz musicians with real bona fides, David Bowie's last album, etc.).
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That's the beauty of improv music no matter the genre, no? Climbing out on the limb and hoping it supports the collective weight. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Like any good conversation, listening is the key.
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Page McConnell, the keyboardist for Phish said something once, like, "Sometimes you have to sit through fifteen minutes of crap because what happens in minute 16 is amazing." Originally Posted by Cunamara
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