Prog rock and Genesis revisited

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-18-2016, 05:25 PM

I was a Prog Head before I got into jazz or classical. In fact, it was kind of a gateway drug into the world of complex music.

I pretty much stopped listening to the old dinosaurs--ELP, Yes, etc.--when I was in college and discovering a world of other music--New Wave, jazz, etc. The one exception was King Crimson, who transformed themselves in the 80's into a very different kind of band with a punky energy.

Anyway, I am getting prepped for an upcoming Peter Gabriel concert and have been listening to his entire works, including the old stuff with Genesis, and I am surprised how much I am enjoying it. They were, maybe along with King Crimson, one of the most unusual and visionary prog bands. Of course that had to do with their individual talents, which were most impressive, but also the singular focus of Peter Gabriel.

And a lot of the bands of that era were bombastic to the point of Spinal Tap silliness, but Genesis was much more refined, at least in my opinion. Their sound is fairly unique, kind of baroque and contrapuntal, and many of their techniques and effects have been highly influential over the years.

I think the old Genesis stuff holds up rather well, compared to some of the other relics from the era.

**MarkRhodes** · 05-18-2016, 05:39 PM

Both of my brothers were big fans of Genesis---Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England by the Pound, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Live, even Trespass---so I heard them a lot at home. Can't say I think much about them anymore though. Certainly they were a distinctive group.

**christianm77** · 05-18-2016, 06:33 PM

Ah! Prog!

I liked the '80s King Crimson stuff a lot. Mental guitar playing. Sort of Talking Heads meets Steve Reich meets Heavy Metal.

I do have a soft spot for Early Genesis from when I encountered them at the ideal age of 15/16.

Listening again - I still kind of dig them. I am definitely more a fan of Peter Gabriel's contribution to the group - the bits that sounds the most dated to me are the endless keys solos and the more noodly song elements - there are some great songs sort of buried in there. While Banks and Collins get accused of being sell outs, from listening to the post PG albums it actually sounds like they were the Mahavishnu/Weather Report fans and PG probably wanted to take everything in a more Bowie/Roxy Music direction.

Some great moments for the... dedicated listener. But it's hard for me to recommend this group to the general music fan....

Anyway, in terms of jazz, let's take a moment to salute Phil Collins' drumming. He was a great fusion cat (can't swing, but hey ho). I say was, sadly, as he is apparently no longer able to play.

Is it wrong to think this would have been an absolutely sweet 3-4 minute pop cut (in 7?) yes, I'm sure it is.

And yes I do think Turn it On Again is f*cking genius on every level. There, I said it. That's how to write a tune in odd time, guys:

Sorry gods of prog, for I have sinned.

Anyway, never really got into Yes or Rush or any of those. For me PG-era Genesis had a certain weird charm, a certain unique quality. I'm sure most fans agree. But for me it was kind of nothing to do with Prog rock.

Anyway if you like a bit of King Crimson, be sure to check out Hydra by Ben Monder. It's quite bonkers.

**neatomic** · 05-18-2016, 06:37 PM

fripp was where it all came from..hackett of genesis, manzanera of roxy, pinhas of heldon, david torn, etc etc

fripps chops and tone were light years ahead...and he's still pushing

cheers

**christianm77** · 05-18-2016, 06:40 PM

Another great aspect of listening to the old Genesis stuff again is back then I was just starting out playing guitar.

Now I can fully appreciate the pioneering genius of Steve Hackett. It's extraordinary that he isn't better known. He basically invented right hand tapping in a rock context. I don't hear his playing as owing much to Fripp - he was his own thing.

But the 12-string guitar textures (Rutherford and sometimes Banks) are completely unique as well.

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-18-2016, 06:42 PM

Yeah I love Hydra, it's like Lark's Tongue in Aspic on steroids!

Genesis were all superb musicians, and yes Phil Collins was THE best rock drummer of his generation. Interestingly, I think Genesis was moving in a more "New Wave" direction with The Lamb Lies Down, but after Peter Gabriel left, the band kind of retrenched into more baroque stuff--Trick of the Tail, etc., until Steve Hackett went. Then the pop element came out, ahem, big time.

One can only speculate how much money there would be in a full Genesis reunion tour. Wow.

**christianm77** · 05-18-2016, 06:46 PM

BTW - anyone tempted to invest in one of these? ;-)

<br>

**Flat** · 05-18-2016, 06:47 PM

My introduction to jazz might have followed a path like this:

Pink Floyd/Genesis/Yes --> ECM/Metheny/Abercrombie --> Wes' Windy --> rest of Wes --> Jim Hall and then everybody else...

"Squonk" can take me right back to 1978 in two beats.

Best prog rock I've heard recently: Steven Wilson, Insurgentes.

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-18-2016, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

fripp was where it all came from..hackett of genesis, manzanera of roxy, pinhas of heldon, david torn, etc etc

fripps chops and tone were light years ahead...and he's still pushing

cheers

Fripp and Hackett were more or less contemporaries. They have a lot in common, including use of Les Pauls, heavily overdriven tones with the treble way down, and being early adopters of guitar synths.

Hackett used a tapping technique which was pretty revolutionary for the time--I just found out that a lot of the arpeggiated stuff I thought was Tony Banks on Rhodes or even harpsichord was Steve Hackett.

**neatomic** · 05-18-2016, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

Fripp and Hackett were more or less contemporaries. .

not really...fripp was first..hackett copied him right down to the les paul and shaftsbury fuzz..he even sat when he played

cheers

ps- not to undermine hackett..his first solo lp...is a prog classic

**neatomic** · 05-18-2016, 07:02 PM

crimson in the wetton-bruford-cross-fripp era had two mellotrons on stage..fripp and cross both had'em!!

cheers

**vinlander** · 05-18-2016, 07:02 PM

Progressive Rock was my gateway to fusion and then to jazz.
Fripp, Hackett, Mussida, Howe were the ones that lead me to McLaughlin, Coryell, DiMeola and the rest is history...
Early Genesis was magic, so was the huge Italian symphonic prog scene and the Kraut Rock.
But King Crimson remains my favorite rock band; one of the few band who could survive by renewing itself through its numerous incarnations and personal changes...

**neatomic** · 05-18-2016, 07:05 PM

fripp sept 68..pre crimson

cheers

**christianm77** · 05-18-2016, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

fripp sept 68..pre crimson

cheers

Haha.... Well Hackett didn't have Fripp's right hand did he, lol? He found his own workaround.

Nice fingerpicker though.

**vinlander** · 05-18-2016, 08:20 PM

Even more impressive knowing Fripp is a left handed guy who learned to play right handed

**lammie200** · 05-19-2016, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I was a Prog Head before I got into jazz or classical. In fact, it was kind of a gateway drug into the world of complex music...

Me too. Really enjoyed Genesis growing up, but I think that even some of their early '80s stuff was catchy. I played that double live '70s album and others until their grooves wore out. Yes in the Round was a helluva show. I tune Pandora for stuff like this at work and it usually only lasts an hour before the kids change it to the current crap. I also liked a lot of the other bands mentioned, but although they came about later I couldn't get into Rush at all. Geddy's vocals killed it for me. That sort of marked the end of that period for me.

**Fidelcaster** · 05-19-2016, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I was a Prog Head before I got into jazz or classical. In fact, it was kind of a gateway drug into the world of complex music.

I pretty much stopped listening to the old dinosaurs--ELP, Yes, etc.--when I was in college and discovering a world of other music--New Wave, jazz, etc. The one exception was King Crimson, who transformed themselves in the 80's into a very different kind of band with a punky energy.

Anyway, I am getting prepped for an upcoming Peter Gabriel concert and have been listening to his entire works, including the old stuff with Genesis, and I am surprised how much I am enjoying it. They were, maybe along with King Crimson, one of the most unusual and visionary prog bands. Of course that had to do with their individual talents, which were most impressive, but also the singular focus of Peter Gabriel.

And a lot of the bands of that era were bombastic to the point of Spinal Tap silliness, but Genesis was much more refined, at least in my opinion. Their sound is fairly unique, kind of baroque and contrapuntal, and many of their techniques and effects have been highly influential over the years.

I think the old Genesis stuff holds up rather well, compared to some of the other relics from the era.

Some Italian jazz cats recorded an hommage to classic prog rock about ten years ago:

I know there'a also a jazz piano trio that recorded two albums of King Crimson's music, but never listened to them.

**jbernstein91** · 05-19-2016, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by vinlander

Progressive Rock was my gateway to fusion and then to jazz.
Fripp, Hackett, Mussida, Howe were the ones that lead me to McLaughlin, Coryell, DiMeola and the rest is history...
Early Genesis was magic, so was the huge Italian symphonic prog scene and the Kraut Rock.
But King Crimson remains my favorite rock band; one of the few band who could survive by renewing itself through its numerous incarnations and personal changes...

Speaking of "Italian symphonic prog":

**jbernstein91** · 05-19-2016, 10:52 AM

And speaking of complex prog:

**jbernstein91** · 05-19-2016, 10:53 AM

Sorry, but one more: Washington DC's own Happy the Man:

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-19-2016, 07:18 PM

Yeah I listened to some Gentle Giant back in the day...

Genesis had a fairly unique sound. They emphasized ensemble playing, kind of like a Bach concerto--not virtuoso solo followed by virtuoso solo, like Yes. Tony Banks had a softer touch than his contemporaries--he kind of ranged from Baroque to impressionistic, but not usually hard or edgy like Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman. His synths were kind of understated and hornlike, rather than bombastic. Steve Hackett seemed more interested in contributing to the song than showing off his skills, but he had a very identifiable sound as well.

As usual, the rhythm section laid the groundwork. Phil Collins had a subtlety that a lot of other great players lacked, while Rutherford probably used effects more and used them more interestingly than just about any bassist out there. Not to mention the double-necked Rickenbacker bass-guitar hybrid he used on occasion.

And Peter Gabriel--not a great voice compared to some, but a very effective voice. The group uses a lot of nice harmonies ala the Beach Boys and Mamas and Papas.

Their songs were very complex, imagistic and poetic. PG was theatrically grounded, and I don't think took himself quite as seriously as some of his contemporaries. I still don't know what most of the songs mean, but IMO they hold up better than a lot of the meandering or apocalyptic stuff put out around that time.

Just my opinion, 40 years later.

**neatomic** · 05-19-2016, 07:29 PM

and remember the original genesis guitarist was anthony phillips..a very classically inspired player..who went on to do a lot of library session work and classical based recordings...

cheers

**christianm77** · 05-19-2016, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

Yeah I listened to some Gentle Giant back in the day...

Genesis had a fairly unique sound. They emphasized ensemble playing, kind of like a Bach concerto--not virtuoso solo followed by virtuoso solo, like Yes. Tony Banks had a softer touch than his contemporaries--he kind of ranged from Baroque to impressionistic, but not usually hard or edgy like Keith Emerson or Rick Wakeman. His synths were kind of understated and hornlike, rather than bombastic. Steve Hackett seemed more interested in contributing to the song than showing off his skills, but he had a very identifiable sound as well.

As usual, the rhythm section laid the groundwork. Phil Collins had a subtlety that a lot of other great players lacked, while Rutherford probably used effects more and used them more interestingly than just about any bassist out there. Not to mention the double-necked Rickenbacker bass-guitar hybrid he used on occasion.

And Peter Gabriel--not a great voice compared to some, but a very effective voice. The group uses a lot of nice harmonies ala the Beach Boys and Mamas and Papas.

Their songs were very complex, imagistic and poetic. PG was theatrically grounded, and I don't think took himself quite as seriously as some of his contemporaries. I still don't know what most of the songs mean, but IMO they hold up better than a lot of the meandering or apocalyptic stuff put out around that time.

Just my opinion, 40 years later.

Well put. I still find myself thinking listening to early Genesis.... ohh it's another Tony Banks keyboard feature. I think he was a very keen to show off. Which is not to say that he doesn't have some very cool moments - the opening of Lamb, Fountain of Samalcis (a popular sample apparently), and of course the mighty mellotron intro to Watcher of the Skies....

The bass pedals thing the Rutherford used was really cool as well - added a quite specific sound.

I might add that Gabriel wasn't technically a great singer, but a very characteristic and beautiful voice I think. I grew up on his 80s stuff...

Struggled a bit live apparently just in terms of stamina etc. Since the 70s he had a lot of vocal coaching apparently.

Those interviews they did are revealing aren't they? A lot of strange class dynamics between the Charterhouse lot and Hackett and Collins. Hackett comes across as the nicest bloke imaginable, and actually I quite like Collins (he was persona non grata for years in the UK - he was seriously hated) who comes across first and foremost as a professional musician - pragmatic and down to earth. Fascinating.

**neatomic** · 05-19-2016, 07:51 PM

some cool drummer phil collins with the monstrous bassist percy jones..via brand x

great album

cheers

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-20-2016, 08:24 AM

I agree Genesis featured Tony Banks up front much more than the other players, kind of the way Yes featured Steve Howe or Deep Purple Ritchie Blackmore.

This is either a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective. I read one reviewer who thought Banks as a multi-keyboard player used the wrong keyboard for every occasion. Personally, up until the end of the Gabriel era I think he was fantastic and had just the right touch for the band.

With the passage of 40 years I like his tuneful meanderings more now than I like the hard sound of Emerson, Lord, etc. from the same era. His use of Mellotrons was, along with King Crimson, the best in the business. And his synth programs were tasteful, not in your face.

Interestingly, the person who took synths to the next level in the 80's was...Peter Gabriel. His use of the Fairlight in the 80's was revolutionary.

Re' Rutherford, that guy practically owned the Taurus bass pedal.

Re' Collins--there's a drum sound named after him...In the Air Tonight, Intruder (PG), etc. What more need be said?

I think Hackett didn't quite get his due as a player. Maybe if he had stood up when he played, or put on some makeup or a cape or something..