The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey guys,

    Man, I love reading the posts around here. There are some really knowledgeable folks in this forum. I would really appreciate some general advice from the jazz guys around here.

    Here's the deal. I'm a blues guy basically who wants to learn how to play the jazzier side of blues like some of my favorite players (TBone and BB for example). But more than that, I LOVE western swing and jump blues.

    Here's the question. I am studying jazz because I believe that it's going to help me open up my playing and give me a better mastery of my instrument. And I'm hoping that the comping and soloing exercises will eventually be applicable in western swing tunes. But if you were in my shoes, how would you approach learning this style of playing? Obviously, listening to the tunes and trying to learn them by ear is the way a lot of guys do it. But would you study jazz as part of your roadmap to this destination? Am I wasting my time? Any other advice you can give me? Anybody out there play western swing? Just curious.

    Michael
    Last edited by strathound; 06-08-2009 at 10:35 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Ray Benson of Asleep at the Wheel has a video out on western swing. He teaches a couple of songs and some licks. It's him and Johnny Gimble playing fiddle.

    Also, Joe Carr has a couple of videos on western swing.
    Good starting point. You learn something you can put to use right away.

  4. #3

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    yes! you need hipper chords, and to learn how to play changes, and jazz will teach you that.

    my prediction: you won't just stop at the "bluesy side of jazz" and you'll get bitten like the rest of us.

  5. #4

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    If you like T Bone Walker maybe you could start with Charlie Christian. Even though Charlie is considered a pioneer Jazz player, he grew up in Texas and Oklahoma in the 20s so I'm guessing he had some Western influence in there.

    As for studying jazz to improve Western Swing playing I think you can certainly learn a lot about the feel from Swing Jazz. My only WesSwing LP is Bob Wills and Texas Playboys so I'm no expert. You might also look at modern Country players like Danny Gatton.

  6. #5

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    There are some WS type tunes that have been tabbed out, but man you really gotta dig in and listen to that stuff. Those WS guys were playing all the pop tunes in the 40s and 50s just like any other band---and their guitarists were usually pretty hot! The instrumentals are pretty jazzy. Instead of walking bass--they use a two-beat bass, and instead of horns, they use fiddles.

    My band does these tunes and people seem to dig them:
    Bob Wills -Fat Boy Rag
    Jimmy Bryant- Night Rider
    Sweet Georgia Brown, fast with country pickin, long lines etc.

    Check out Jimmy Rivers and the Cherokees.

    I think spicing up your chords is your best bet, throw in more arpeggios and jazz techniques like sweep picking and octaves, and a few nice long runs outside the pentatonic scale and you'll definitely have a sound that sets you apart from most blues guys.

    Of course then you might want to play more jazz!!!Haha

  7. #6
    Great advice from everybody. Yeah, I'm definitely interested in studying Charlie Christian. You hit the nail on the head there. And Tom, do you have a link to your music? I'd love to hear some of your stuff.

    Thanks guys. Jazz Ensemble class starts on Thursday. Time to sink or swim.

    MS

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Z
    There are some WS type tunes that have been tabbed out, but man you really gotta dig in and listen to that stuff. Those WS guys were playing all the pop tunes in the 40s and 50s just like any other band---and their guitarists were usually pretty hot! The instrumentals are pretty jazzy. Instead of walking bass--they use a two-beat bass, and instead of horns, they use fiddles.

    My band does these tunes and people seem to dig them:
    Bob Wills -Fat Boy Rag
    Jimmy Bryant- Night Rider
    Sweet Georgia Brown, fast with country pickin, long lines etc.

    Check out Jimmy Rivers and the Cherokees.

    I think spicing up your chords is your best bet, throw in more arpeggios and jazz techniques like sweep picking and octaves, and a few nice long runs outside the pentatonic scale and you'll definitely have a sound that sets you apart from most blues guys.

    Of course then you might want to play more jazz!!!Haha

  8. #7

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    Western Swing is jazz even if the cats at North Texas don't think so. Check out swing players (especially Freddie Green) and dig into Hot Jazz (Django).

    Also, if you can find it at your library, check out The Jazz of the Southwest: An Oral History of Western Swing. It's a great way to hear what those players thought about themselves (they thought of themselves as jazz musicians) and about what kind of music they were playing (they thought that they were playing jazz). In general, the idea that Western Swing isn't jazz probably stems from some kind of east coast bias or race issues.

    I don't think Cowboys and Indians play too many gigs these days, but they were a great DFW Western Swing band during the 90s. Erik Swanson (the singer and rhythm player) is now with the Texas Gypsies and they play gypsy jazz and WS.

    There used to be a steel guitar shop out in White Settlement called Steel City. I don't if it's there anymore or if they moved, but it was a great place to talk to the old time steelers and to also to find out where the good WS players were playing.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    yes! you need hipper chords, and to learn how to play changes, and jazz will teach you that.

    my prediction: you won't just stop at the "bluesy side of jazz" and you'll get bitten like the rest of us.
    Hi Mr.B. !

    Thats right - we alle came from the blues bascially.
    There are only a few jazz players which have no relation to the blues.
    But all in all I wanted to post exactly the same thing.
    So thanks for doing it.

    kind regards and a nice evening,

    Tobias

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stackabones
    Western Swing is jazz even if the cats at North Texas don't think so. Check out swing players (especially Freddie Green) and dig into Hot Jazz (Django).
    I agree with this assessment. Different instrumentation, some different tunes, but lots of overlap on other tunes. Many of the same chords and improvisational tools. Go to youtube and enter western swing. I would love to see this style make more of a comeback.

  11. #10

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    One of several theories is that Western Swing is a direct result of Guitar playing Country Boys exposed to the music of Django Reinhardt (as Stackabones mentioned) and the Hot Club Quintet while serving (and partying) in France during WWII. I found it a great way into Jazz for a guitar player. It's more based on lines from chord shapes and arpeggios than on scales. The repertoire is The Classic American Songbook, the harmonies, though less complex than contemporary jazz, are more sophisticated than than pop/blues standards and Man, It just SWINGS! It's a great place to start. One piece of advice: Just as the Gypsies do, learn to play strong rhythym first. It's the of the foundation of the "Swing" and will help you to see the chord shapes from which your solo playing will emerge. By the way the aforementioned Charlie Christian played mostly out of chord shapes and swung hard also. Check out the Forum at Djangobooks.com for great learning tools, shared ideas, and ways to turn theory into practice.
    Last edited by Flat5; 07-08-2009 at 04:37 PM.

  12. #11

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    brent mason has a good video which some of is dedicated to western swing.

  13. #12

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    Bruce Forman is a great straight ahead jazzer that has a western swing deal going to. Killer player and educator
    Check it out.

  14. #13

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    Jimmy Wyble is probably the most jazzy of the western swing guitarists in terms of his soloing. Just listen to the studio version of Roly Poly. He was with Bob Wills for a short time.. in '45 I think. Then Junior Barnard took over in '46 for many of the Tiffany Transcriptions. He was more blues, proto rock and roll. Eldon Shamblin then came back.. great comping, but not as good a soloist IMHO.

    The mandolin player for Wills, Tiny Moore, certainly knew his be bop!! He was playing on a five string electric too.. so you translate some of that to guitar.

  15. #14

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    Check out Herb Ellis' album Texas Swing - which features Ellis in a western swing setting - plus anything by the Hot Club of Cowtown - its all their - swing, jazz, Django & the wide open plains

  16. #15

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    I'll second Hot Club of Cowtown. More specific to guitar, search for vids of Whit Smith (HCCT's guitarist). He does some great stuff. Plus, he has an instructional DVD on what he calls rhythm Western Swing guitar which seems to be mostly inversions that move the bass note around. Worth getting a copy if you can find it.

  17. #16

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    I've studied up on the Joe Carr videos, they are very useful. Also check out some of the comparative studies of rhythm guitar styles on freddiegreen.org. That opened up a lot of doors for me.

  18. #17

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    Check out this site to purchase mp3s
    www.buckatune.net
    It features alot of western swing. It's a new site - only up for a month so new songs and artists are still being added. Spread the word!

  19. #18

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    I'm surprised no one mentioned the Time Jumpers out of Nashville. Get their CD and/or DVD "Jumpin Time." Andy Reiss plays lead, Ranger Doug Green (from Riders in the Sky) plays rhythm and the late "Papa" John Huey is on steel. It's incredible.

  20. #19

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    The Time Jumpers are excellant but also take a listen to Tom Morrell and the Time Warp Tophands, Cowbop, and the Jazzabillies at www.buckatune.net

  21. #20

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    Buddy Emmons is mentioned occasionally on this forum. His steel guitar jazz album is great.

    Ray Benson was also mentioned here. I think the Asleep at the Wheel tribute album to Bob Wills has great material.

  22. #21

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    ...almost forgot. Duke Robillard with Herb Ellis on "Converstaions is Swing Guitar"!

  23. #22
    When I first started this thread, I made a small typographical mistake. I was really asking about "West Coast Swing" and not Western Swing. But I love Ray Benson and Asleep at the Wheel. Bob Wills too. But if anyone out there can give me some advice about West Coast Swing, I'd really appreciate it.

    I actually think I'm on the right path at this point. I'm now playing in a jazz big band and we do some swing tunes. But I'm still open to any advice anyone might have at this point.

    Thanks,

    Michael

  24. #23
    Charley Batey is the man for West Coast Swing. Little Charley and the Night Cats.
    Rick Holmstrom "LA Holmes" is another.

    Jr.Watson is one of my favorites and check out "New Guitar Summit" Duke Robillard and Jay Geils.
    SS
    Last edited by Spikesime; 01-04-2010 at 05:25 PM.

  25. #24

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    Hey all,
    This is my first post - I made it here as I've actually been listening to a lot of western swing lately and I'm really digging it. What surprised me most was how sophisticated the sound and what great musos those guys were. For some stupid reason I had a preconception it would be less sophisticated. Is the rhythm guitar in western swing usually straight ahead 4 to the bar? I am a beginning jazz guitar student with about a year of playing chords/rock/blues as a teenager but now taking up guitar again 20 years later (but my musical tastes have since broadened, hence my presence here). Sorry for the rambling introduction, great forum you got here, so basically I'm looking to learn swing guitar as a gateway to jazz, was just wondering about its popularity as a style with the other forumites.

  26. #25

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    I had never heard of this stuff before I started reading this column. It's perfect for me, because I play mostly jazz, but once a week at work I play bluegrass with some of the other fellas. Anyway, there's a ton of great stuff on YouTube!