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I have never played piano, but I am considering getting started. My long term goal is to play jazz on an acoustic piano. I don't have a keyboard so I would have to purchase one first. Recommendations on both what keyboard/piano options to consider and how to begin approaching the literature would be welcome.
Thanks
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05-12-2013 03:47 PM
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I would say if acoustic piano is your goal then get a keyboard with an acoustic like keyboard. I don't have goal to be a piano player, but wanted a portable piano similar to real thing. I picked up a small Yamaha 88-key on sale for @$300 with weighted plastic keys. not real but close and closer than most synth keyboards.
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I went through the first 4-5 books in the Shauwm (sp) piano books when I taught myself.to play years ago...
Very simple books in the beginning...then as my ability grew I played from the songbooks I already have...
I play to the level that I wanted to achieve and thats all...guitar is my main instrument....play 15 others....
go for it.....
time on the instrument...
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Do jazz pianos use flatwound piano strings?
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Thanks. I will look into inexpensive keyboards to start with ($300 sound reasonable) and decide whether it is something I want to pursue before spending more.
Originally Posted by docbop
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I will look into these books. Thanks. Originally Posted by pierre richard
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And what pick works best for piano? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I read your post and one of my favorites quotes popped up in my head. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
For your viewing pleasure:
Last edited by AlsoRan; 05-14-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Not to sound like a jerk but about 30 years ago, a friend (trumpeter) offered to give me a piano lesson. I was truly looking forward to it, waiting impatiently for the day to arrive. When at last I got to my "lesson" he said..." this is middle C, everything below it, play with your left hand, above it, use your right". Then he walked away!
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I'm by no means a piano player at all, but I am able to build chords using a bass note with the left hand and guide tones with the right, just like the 3 note shell voicings we use on guitar. Movements of fourths are really easy to navigate as just like on guitar you move the guide tones chromatically up/down. I had to comp Autumn Leaves for a jazz assessment and this method worked for me.
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Chrome,
On a serious note, a forum member, I believe it was "Paynow," recommended Jerry Coker's "Jazz Keyboard for For Pianists and Non-Pianists (class or individual study).
I have the book and have not had time to work it in. Many years ago, I took piano lessons and played for around 3 1/2 years, doing classical music recitals and such.
Anyway, from looking through the book, it seems to be heavy into chord work and comping. I don't see much on soloing, things such as scales, sequences, etc...
There are a lot of great exercises in it, however.
You may want to investigate.
By the way, there is no guitar tab. No CD, either.
Hope this helps.
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In addition to the books already mentioned you might eventually want to check Mark Levine Jazz Piano book it starts real simple and goes from there. Also equally invaluable is sitting at the keyboard with your guitar and transfering what you already know on guitar to the piano and vice versa. Enjoy!!!
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I'm one of the few jazz piano players on this board...who also happens to enjoy learning jazz guitar. Originally Posted by Chrome
Know this:
You don't have to learn piano the OLD SCHOOL way...which was to learn the instrument in a traditional sense, playing countless etudes and dumbed down musical forms with the idea to get you both playing and reading.
A more modern method is to learn to play what's commonly referred to as Chordal playing. All you need to learn to play piano at a beginning to an intermediate level is to learn every chord type. And then apply that knowledge to any lead sheet of any tune you wish to play...this gets you going on a basic level and affords you an opportunity to play the exact music you desire to play.
That's not to say there is not a time and place for applying fundamentals to your practice for reading, technique, etc. Chordal players also have those elements as part of their practice session.
But so many adults and beginner's lose enthusiasm for practice because they aren't producing and practicing the type of music they'd prefer to perform...Chordal piano will get you there immediately...and it's as good a place to start as any. There's plenty of time to study with a teacher later, or even as a beginning student...but a teacher nor the study of fundamentals is not necessary in beginning piano study.
I'm self taught...having began on my own with a highly recommended book at the time by author Mark Levine titled: The Jazz Piano Book, Sher Music - After 20 years I still occasionally refer to it
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Boo...ine+jazz+piano
Another highly recommended contemporary book for jazz pianists is: Metaphors for the Musician - Perspectives from a jazz pianist - by Randy Halberstadt, Sher Music
http://www.amazon.com/Metaphors-Musi...dy+halberstadt
Randy happens to teach local to me here in Seattle...he's been in demand locally for 20 years, both as a teacher and pianist performing in the local scene.
Mark has a gift for writing and teaching, taking otherwise challenging subject matter and making it more easily understandable in application and practice. And Marks book has enough jazz piano material in it to keep one busy for many years of serious study....so as you progress you discover countless things to practice and apply to your playing.
Each of the above books are must haves, imo, for anyone beginning the study of jazz piano. Like guitar, there are countless books written also for piano, and I have an overwhelming number of them in my library, but those 2 above are standouts. I've other's dedicated solely for integrating chord study into melody playing...which when you begin to seek that subject out you'll easily discover it is a book subject that is in real short supply...here's one such book and the only I've been able to find relating to two handed jazz chord-melody voicing :
http://www.amazon.com/Harmonic-Found...ef=pd_sim_b_81
...which I happened upon some 10 years into my studies when I wasn't searching for it...isn't that always how it is...wished I'd have found that one in the beginning...I'm not talking left hand voicings (chords) where you play the melody above in the right hand, or improvise with the right hand over your own left hand voicings...but a jazz approach to two handed jazz voicings that can be applied to solo piano in the context of chord melody playing...most books offer you 'comping voicings'...not even Mark Levine's jazz piano book tackles the subject of piano chord melody in great detail...I later discovered nor does anyone else...which is what made Jimmy Amadie's 'Harmonic Foundation' such a standout during my quest...but Mark Levine does have a fabulous version of Wayne Shorter's Infant Eyes, fully written out with lush jazz chords between two hands, including the melody, for solo piano.
Know this...in the beginning this is going to be one of your greatest challenges...applying lush jazz chord voicings between both hands beneath the melody on top.
And here's a few others of great merit in my library that have helped me along the path:
highly recommended for the study of 4ths, and non tertiary chord voicings
http://www.amazon.com/Voicings-Jazz-...ref=pd_sim_b_3
drop 2
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Mas...ref=pd_sim_b_2
the subject of chord subsitution
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Chord...ef=pd_sim_b_20
and of course one of my heroes Bill Evans - each of these books is a must have for an Evans fan
http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Evans-Ric...ll+evans+books
http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Evans-Arr...ref=pd_sim_b_5
It was 4 years in before I had my first lesson with a jazz piano teacher...one can acquire so much knowledge all on their own, if they've the ambition and fortitude to practice. In the beginning I'd spend 3 sometimes 4 hours a day practicing...which with my workload at that time was a lot...but I was driven to improve.
So, anyone who tells you that you must begin piano with a teacher, and study fundamentals first...well I'd disagree, for chord piano allows one to study fundamentals and to immediately play what moves them. If you desired to learn Classical piano I'd say study the fundamental approach. This approach works because chords are an integral part of jazz piano playing, and once you've gotten them into your hands that foundation allows you to play whatever tune you want.
As to instruments...I've owned several acoustic piano's...A Yamaha C3, a traditional jazz piano that can be found as the house piano in many a jazz club...It's Yamaha's conservatory model, and it's very well made with an exceptional voice..but be prepared to invest anywhere from $14-$16k for a used C3...and far more for a used Steinway. The Boston piano is a very decent brand...it's made by a division of Steinway at a lower cost than a Steinway...highly recommended...but because they're associated with Steinway they're almost as pricey as a C3, which being one of Yamaha's best, I'd rather have a C3 than a Boston near the same money. For anything less than $10k for an acoustic piano, one can buy a Kawai KG-2 used for about $9k...it's a real decent model...darker than the C3 but it's worth an investment...for a lesser budget of $9k there's only one piano worth buying less than that price point...the Young Chang model PG-185. It's a 6'1" model which is the size of the C3, made in Korea during the 90's, but found used on average today about $7k-$8500. The Young Chang's are well built.
I'd stay away from those cutesy baby grands...they just don't have the soundboard projection a 6 footer has. Also, don't buy a Samick, a Korean model with a laminated soundboard...nothing against them...but stay with a piano with a solid spruce soundboard....especially for resale value.
Uprights are great too, especially if space is a limitation for accommodating a full size grand style piano. I've owned both upright and grand piano's...the thing about an upright is if it's a tall 52" upright it will have a soundboard mass equal to a 6' grand piano. The Yamaha U3 is a very common 52" upright, readily affordable used at about $4k. If I was considering buying an upright I'd not acquire anything less than a 52" inch size. Reason being, a full sized upright has the volume of a 6' grand...one can remove both the upper and lower front panels and open them up for playing....doing so opens the sound of the piano and sonically the tone is right in your face...different than a grand style, which has the tone projecting itself away from you and more into the room...some, myself included, feel an upright has a more intimate playing experience since the sound is so close to you...it's really right in your face.
I'd recommend a keyboard first...but a pro style keyboard. I've owned a Yamaha S90-ES model for years...its timbre is awfully close to an actual piano...no electric will have the sustain or harmonics of an acoustic...but that model Yamaha electric is the best I've heard....and I've sampled some 20 or so high level keyboards. They go used on feebay anywhere from $1300-$1500...that's a price that won't break anyone's bank...the board has a nice expansion board to add additional voices later on...it's got a killer jazz organ module as well...and the keys are authentic weighted keys...not like an acoustic mind you, but as good as you're going to find in any electric.
It is unfortunate that you had to ask this question on a jazz guitar forum...unfortunate because jazz piano players have no real forum in existence like this jazz guitar forum.
Okay, more information than you asked. Happy to assist at any time if you've more questions.
Don't let this post make you feel overwhelmed...as Bill Evans once told Marian McPartland during an interview of Marian's long running weekly program: " I think intuition has to lead knowledge but it can't be out there on it's own - Knowing the problem is 90% of solving it - And that's the problem."
That quote is on part 4 of their interview...this is part 3 which is what prompted Bill's response:
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 05-15-2013 at 11:31 PM.
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To buying your first piano:
If you think buying a new or used guitar is problematic....buying a new or used piano is much more so...I say that having acquired many of each, and most archtops having never played them as they arrived out of state. I'd not buy a piano without playing it, unless it was an electric.
Piano showrooms are like used car dealers...they'll smile and greet you at the door, with $$$ signs in their eyes...we all know that look of "oh here's the latest sucker to walk through the doors."
Most know nothing of what it means to purchase a piano...you don't know what makes a quality instrument better than a sub par one. Why should you? They all look the same with their inviting high gloss or satin ebony finishes...well, just as buying a used car, it's better to look closer and do your homework before you walk in the door.
A good place to start before buying a used piano is to buy a copy of Larry Fine's ' The piano book'. It's in it's umptenth printing and regularly revised.
The Piano Book: Buying & Owning a New or Used Piano: Larry Fine, Keith Jarrett: 9781929145010: Amazon.com: Books
Larry will arm you with some of the in's and out's of buying used pianos, and the very least of which he'll assist you in avoiding buying a lemon....yes there's lemons in piano's just like cars.
The majority of piano manufacturer's have serial numbers that date back into the late 1800's. When American made piano's were in their heyday, during the late 18's to the pre WWII years. So therefore, it's relatively easy to date a piano...you'll locate this info in Larry Fine's book.
If you can't play a note, I'd recommend taking someone along who can play piano before walking into any piano store....sure, the salesman can play...but part of his sells schtick is to croon you with his masterful piano store playing technique. What you're after essentially is does this piano's tone sound more appealing to your ear than that one over there....that's as basic as it gets...but in reality it's far more complicated than that...especially when it comes to knowing piano values....yes, just like cars...and guitars...you don't want to pay more than any piano is worth...especially an older used one that needs new hammers, a complete set of pin blocks, or worse yet, a cracked soundboard.
Just beware buying that first piano until you've educated yourself on how to buy one safely. If you're paying $1k for a 60 year old upright, or considering a console...stop, and read Larry Fine's book first.
Like archtops, all piano's are not created equal, and worse than buying a guitar, spotting a problem area on any used piano is something that should be left to a professional piano technician...technician's are readily available at reasonable rates to evaluate and act on your behalf at the showroom...they are cheap insurance.
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Thanks 2B2B, this is incredibly helpful. As you pointed out, there doesn't appear to be an equivalent to this jazz guitar forum for jazz piano, which makes it hard to access the kind of insight you have provided. My google searches picked up scattered pieces of information, but nothing as spot on as your posts.
As I play chord melody on guitar, your suggestion to use a chordal approach to learning jazz piano holds great appeal. The books you linked to provide me with a great start. I have Mark Levine's jazz theory book and like his writing style, so his jazz piano book stands out.
Regarding buying a starter keyboard and considerations for an acoustic piano, thanks again. I need something to start with and the Yamaha S90 seems to be a very good choice. As for an acoustic piano, that is my long term goal. In a future music room I am planning (which is a couple of years away), I hope to have a grand piano. I'll pick up Larry Fine's book now to help me understand things to look for and avoid.
I will probably have more questions, so thanks for your offer of further help.
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Yes, it's a decent book...nothing against Jerry Coker, for in his time Coker's 'Improvising Jazz' was like a jazz bible of sorts...that was a time when jazz study material was in short supply...but even though I own it, as it's originally written in the mid 60's, there's countless books out there that present a more modern approach to the keyboard in book terms. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Questions...fire away at any time. Originally Posted by Chrome
Well, the thing I discovered starting out with no instruction, and later even with instruction, was there seemed to be a clouded mystery as to how folks on the recordings were creating their voicing approach...I mean, heck it wasn't too long before I had every conceivable left hand voicing programmed into my left hand...that's where you're playing by reaching for the shape of a chord as it's engrained into your hand through repetition, and as a beginning improvisor after having spent a few years playing right hand lines along with Abersold tracks, that one day I said to myself:
Yep, this left hand voice comping is great for providing a foundation while playing melodic lines, as in comping for yourself, but it's not what I'm hearing on those Gene Harris and Keith Jarrett recordings I so came to love...it had been seeing Gene Harris at Seattle's Jazz Alley...after speaking to him during a set break I felt motivated to begin as an adult...in my mid 30's. I'd begun music at 14, playing flugelhorn and trumpet...a major Freddie Hubbard fanatic all throughout school..the CTI label...those were the days...and in the service overseas I spent years doing nothing but transcribing and developing my ears.
The piano offers so much more than just LHV's...So when it came to utilizing the entire keyboard as you'll hear the pro's doing on recordings, I said...wait a second...this ain't it...and years of searching for books on the subject of even how to voice a chord melody, which btw, pianists don't refer to it as such for that's uniquely a guitar term, my book search turned up empty. It was then I realized that my early years had taught me that any recording is filled with enough lessons to write a book...so I began transcribing the piano of those I was feeling influenced by. For the fun of it, and to learn what's not written in any book
thank goodness for these Tascam transcribing players that slow things down just so right...no more scratched LP's and cassette's that bit the dust!
I suggested buying a keyboard because when I began keyboards weren't as advanced as they are now....so as a result, and the fact I knew I was completely committed to learning the instrument, I bought a used Kawai KG-2 grand...back in '90 those were about $10k used...so as you can see, piano's hold their value well...some better than other's...I prefer acoustic piano...but until you've owned one and learn that weeks after your tuner has made his bi-yearly visit to tune it, you're not playing in precise tune....keyboards are always in tune...but the main reason I suggest getting a keyboard first is you're better off buying an acoustic when you can approach one and sit down and play it...thereby allowing your own hands to tell you, 'yep the action is just right on this one'.
There's only two keyboards worthy of my ear...I'm fairly picky....I'm no fan of anything that sounds remotely electric...Yamaha does the best job I know of of duplicating a piano's natural sustain...and they're not perfect...but they're decent.
Yamaha's current, is their S90-XS.....it replaced my S90ES...Yamaha comes out with a new model every 4-5 years.
Sonically, many players feel the tone (patch) in the older S90ES is better than the current model here:
Yamaha S90XS Synthesizer 88 Note Balanced Hammer Weighted Action New C Stock 086792931531 | eBay
That one is priced right for a new unit.
and this one looks like mine, which I also found mint and used on feebay....rarely do you find them in this condition...but the seller's asking a bit much....he's looking for a buyer who wants an S90ES...perhaps he's heard they're better than the newest versions too
Yamaha S90ES 90 ES 88 Key Motif Bro Super Fresh Near Mint Look 12PX World SHIP | eBay
And I've heard real positive things about the Roland RD 700NX, though I've never played one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roland-RD-70...item5d3b18a815
but whatever you buy, make sure to buy a full 88 key weighted key board.
All I can say is I don't feel the need to upgrade, as the newer S90XS unit doesn't have the expansion ports the former ES model has...the great thing about these synth's is you can lay down a bass line, a drum track, and whatever else you choose, and you've got an entire band to jam along with...or simply throw on an Aebersold track...which btw, Jamey Abersold who I met in '91 as he put on a local 3 day seminar, plays great piano...he blew me away as much with his piano playing as hearing him on alto...several of his piano comping tracks where he's playing (his primary instrument is alto sax) are written out note for note...both hands...check out his comping for his Maiden Voyage Vol. 54 as well as several other Abersold recordings:
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Piano Voicings From The Volume 54 Play-A-Long
notice too on the link above Frank Mantooth's book 'Voicings for Jazz Piano' at the far right column...it's the same book I referred earlier...that's a must have if McCoy Tyner style piano voicing is your thing! Discover the power of stacked 4th's played over a left hand tri-tone, or R5 in the left and a quad of stacked 4th's above...there it is!
Sorry man....there I go with the books again...it's a disease
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 05-16-2013 at 05:28 PM.
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2bop, do you have some information regarding pianos you could share with chrome?
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Hey ESCC...yep, sorry for the long rant there...I felt it necessary to mention a few more affordable ones that won't break the bank. Originally Posted by ESCC
2bop, do you have some information regarding pianos you could share with chrome?
Living here in the Northwest I found myself in a unique position. Searching for my first piano I discovered a man by the name of Darryl Fandrich who makes his home here in Seattle. Darryl and I became friends over the years. He builds pianos from the ground up...restores piano's of old naturally...I've had the opportunity to swing by his piano studio on the property of his home (Darryl and his wife Heather reside on 5 acres and run their business out of their home) anytime of the day or night whenever I felt like playing a Bosendorfer, or famed Steinway D that he'd completed restoration on.
It wasn't long before I learned that Darryl is what I refer to as the "Einstein of piano technicians." He designs and invents parts that make piano's better. Darryl has one of the very few patent's for a piano action that has been created over the past 60 years...the upright, aka vertical piano, in its current configuration hasn't had any major improvements to it in many many decades. Daryl changed all that by designing an entirely new action for an upright, that allows an uprights action to play as smoothly as a grand piano...Grands are known for their playing smoothness...Vertical's feel choppy by comparison...Well, Darryl fixed that...His action is called the Fandrich Action...Darryl is a modest man, who besides being an exceptional technician and restorer of old piano's, is one killer jazz player...self taught...and too modest for his own good.
It was the late 90's that China had begun importing to the US on a regular basis...Japanese pianos had been around since the 60's and Korean piano's arrived in the 80's...Well, Darryl brought in a brand new Chinese piano beset with all its design issues...and with exception of the soundboard and plate, gutted the thing completely...this was his new pet project. 6 months later I swung by to check up on his progress and to my surprise the reworked lowly Chinese piano was now in Darryl's showroom next to a Steinway and a nice restored American Mason Hamlin from the 60's. What Darryl had done to that bare bones import was nothing short of astonishing...it played like butter, and had the sweetest harmonic's and overall tone of any piano I've heard. It blew away both the high priced piano's next to it...after playing for an hour Darryl walked in and asked: So what do you think? I turned my head sitting there on the bench and just shook my head from side to side...there were no words...Darryl stood there beaming back at me like a proud papa...I know of no one that can voice a piano like Darryl can...voicing piano's is a true artform...At any rate, everything I've learned over the years about the technical side of piano's I owe to Darryl Fandrich. His piano's were so good that locally national players that began arriving in town at Seattle's Jazz Alley began requesting one of Darryl's piano's for the gig...that's how I met pianists Lynne Arriale and Jessica Williams, in person through Darryl.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 05-16-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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2b,
As I look at potential keyboards from the Yamaha line, I realize that there are three keyboard "types"
On the S90, Balanced Hammer Effect Keyboard.
CP300, Graded Hammer keyboard with authentic touch.
CP1, and its sibs, New NW STAGE wooden weighted keyboard.
Not sure I have this right, but I think the graded hammer keyboard has greater resistance for the bass keys than the treble keys to reflect this difference in an acoutic piano. The balanced hammer effect has similar weighting for all of the 88 keys. I haven't been able to find a descriptions of what the NW STAGE wooden weighted keyboard design does.
Do I understand the first two correctly? Do you know what the latter is? What are your thoughts on graded versus balanced keyboards?
Thanks.
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Another question, with the exception of the CP300, which has built in speakers, I will need to amplify the sound. Will my AI Clarus 2R with RE 12" ER cab do the trick?
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Yamaha has promoted the GHE in their keyboards for over a decade. One can go into the patch and fine tune it to their preference. I don't fiddle with that stuff. I leave it just as its set by the factory. Originally Posted by Chrome
Yamaha has technical expertise and yes the technology is created to attempt to mimic an actual pianos performance. But there is no such keyboard in existence that can play and sound like an actual piano. Still today. It's marketing spill. And yes Yamaha is as good as it gets.
To your other question:
The S and Motif series are the pro line....As good as it gets. The CF300 serves a lesser price point, sounds very electric, and if you heard them next to the pro gear you'd not play them more than once. It's no contest.
Rather than listen to a keyboard through congested 15 watt built ins I use a pair of Rokit 8 studio monitors. At $200 each they're cheap. And they won't bottom out as a built in will. And no, I don't listen loud. I'm not familiar with the gear you mention. Yamaha has a friendly user forum and a technical line. I've never had the need for either and I'm on my 2nd Yamaha having moved up from a Yamaha PF1000.
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Thanks again.
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If you've any questions about the technical aspects or operation of any Yamaha boards one can visit the Yamaha website and download the PDF manual for any keyboard produced by them...whether it's a current or past model.
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Thanks, I'll do that. I will also try and visit a piano store that carries Yamahas next week.
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I am a serious pianist. I take it just as serious as I take jazz guitar. I gave your question a lot of thought because when I started playing, before the Internet and the technology boom, there weren't a whole lot of options in electric pianos for the beginner. Most of the electric gear was rubbish or priced for the professional.
Thankfully this has changed. There is a lot of good gear out there but there is a glut of information to wade through, too.
Just about any digital piano will sound good. Obviously this isn't hard and fast, but almost all use samples, or recordings of a good acoustic piano. Therein the difference in sound is largely in the playback. This isn't carved in stone but usually if you are reasonable with your money you will get a reasonable sound.
For me, and I must stress this is my preference, I would rather pay for a decent weighted action than fancy electronics. What I am looking for is something that feels solid under my fingers. I don't kid myself that a weighted digital keyboard can emulate a grand piano; they are entirely different things. But a weighted and balanced action feels better to me and gives me less trouble when switching between acoustic and electric pianos.
My current digital keyboard is a Casio Privia Px-330. In Australia they sell for about $1000. This board won't win any competitions in piano emulation in the action department. But it is weighted, puts the necessary resistance under my fingers, and sounds great. For gigging in pubs and clubs, recording at home etc this keyboard is more than adequate. If you spend more, you get more features.
It is worth giving thought as to what you hope to achieve with your new skill: you may think you only need a basic board but if your passions are arranging and composition, consider that there are keyboards that provide built in tools for these jobs. That said I hope I haven't muddied the waters for you.
Have fun playing the piano. I have found it has helped my guitar playing no end. My theory, reading, improvising, comping on the guitar are all better because I play piano.
Cheers, Harry
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