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I'm a drummer and there's a really good guitarist and singer who subs with our group quite often and he has been seriously hassling me about doing several songs in Bb. I thought he was kidding but he has been making cracks about it every time for about six months now.
The guy is a hot player, very fast and doesn't sound like he has any problem with the key. But I am getting sick and tired of hearing him grouse all night. The other guys say he's kidding. I haven't asked him so far because I just couldn't believe he was keybound and didn't want to insult him.
I do make a point of not doing things in F# or C# or Eb etc but is Bb that bad really?
Guess I'll skip those songs tonight.
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03-30-2013 04:38 PM
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Sounds like he's kidding. Maybe not. Is there someone singing?
Last edited by Stevebol; 03-30-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Well if he's a hard core Country player they take a lot advantage open strings for their trick licks so certain keys could put a crimp in playing some of things from his bag of tricks. Tell him to "man-up" and play in flat keys, if he hits a few clunkers he can tell people "I'm into Jazz".
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Just pull a capo out of your back pocket and toss it to him. Whether he's joking or not, you'll shut him up and get the last laugh.
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Country player once told me there are five keys: E, A, D, G and sometimes C.
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It may have a lot to do with his vocal range. Singers, even trained singers with a pretty wide range, will always have a range they sound best in. Yeah you can toss him a capo but if you move him out of his vocal range, you'll need a different kind of capo for that. Vice grip on the nuts may do the trick.
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Sorry about the confusion...it's me singing, and I actually thought Bb was a more standard key than B, which they sing in all the time. He has complained about other girl singers he's worked with who called "weird" keys like F# so I guess that was his oblique way of complaining about me and I was just being dense.
Lately I've been messing around on guitar with old pop standards and came to regard Bb as a common key like F and C. So I adjusted my song keys accordingly. I used to know better than that with guitar bands.
So I guess I better take the hint..but I've asked the other guys about my keys, is this a bad key etc and they always claimed it was no problem, sing it wherever. Guess it's a pride thing.Last edited by CarolM; 03-30-2013 at 07:45 PM.
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His problem might be in choosing Bb over A. If your're singing and A is too low for you stick with Bb. Country players will probably like the open chord keys, E, A, D, G and C. He could go about it more professionally if he wanted to discuss song keys.
Originally Posted by CarolM
PS;
Tell him F was George Harrison's favorite key, just to confuse him. Could work.Last edited by Stevebol; 03-31-2013 at 02:26 AM.
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Those flat keys are easiest for most wind players (saxes and brass in Bb or Eb). which is likely the reason they are so common in much older popular music and jazz. One can say that the flat keys are preferred by wind players for exactly the same reason the natural keys are preferred by country players. Symphonic clarinettists always use a set of clarinets, one in Bb and one in A (used with the same mouthpiece) to facilitate playing in all keys. One CAN play in natural and sharp keys on a Bb clarinet, but often it's less awkward on an A clarinet.
But of course all that is not so relevant when playing guitar which plays with equal facility in all keys (with a capo if one wants to use open strings).
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If you sing some songs in Bb, keep doing exactly that. If he can't play them (or if he can't play them without making silly comments) get another guitarist. Songs should be performed in the key that suits the singer.
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Capo on the third fret, play in the key of G and you still get a good range of notes and it's enharmonic with Bb.
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I noticed he used a capo last night so he's not above all that.
They do plenty of songs in B. That gives them open E, right? These guys typically are all over the neck, not strumming cowboy chords all the time. On my guitar the Bb scales from the 6th string 8th fret seem to present at a nice part of the neck, not too much space between frets and not too high up. But my playing range is pretty limited so what do I know.
Anyway he toned down the Bb comments last night and I think maybe he was just wound up the night before. But I had been taking the flak from him in good humor for six months or so and it was starting to tick me off. He's a great player and singer, lots of fast drivey energy and I usually love it when he subs with us.
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So he turned out to be a musician after all. A musician doesn't complain about keys. He goes home and does some woodshedding.
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He's probably complaining because a lot of chicken pickling involves a lot of open strings
Yes you can use a capo but they just don't ring (twang) the same if they're not flapping in the breeze.
Rock?
Shouldn't matter..
For rock my first finger makes a great capo.Last edited by Captain Caravelle; 04-10-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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Nanci Griffith, Patty Griffin, EmmyLou... they all sing in Bb.
If he doesn't give up the complaints, I'd be looking for another guitar player.
Of course, we're all jazz players here, not many of us will make excuses for this "player."
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No sympathy here either.. Originally Posted by kamlapati
If he wants to rip open strings tell him to tune up a semi..then your Bb will be A for him.
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I've played in country bands for years. It's bs to complain about a key like Bb. In fact, Bb is a _great_ guitar key. True--you won't have the standard chicken-pickin', banjo open-roll strings at your disposal for easy tricks. So what. Any guitar player worth his/her paycheck can play sh#$ hot in the key of Bb.
This comes from playing around horn players and from playing in different band contexts. In any event, shut up and support the singer.
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If you're singing, then you should decide the key, but you need to do the work to find your best key for a tune,. You should be able to compromise up or down a little if players have key issues. If he's using a capo on an electric guitar, that tells me he probably does.
But Bb is a great key for guitar. It's in the middle of the neck, has good tone and the strings are easier to bend there.
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Agreed 100% Originally Posted by Greentone
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A professional musician no matter what the instrument should be comfortable playing in any key.
Jazz guitar players are normally comfortable playing in 'horn' keys: Bb, Eb, et al.
I play with a sax player who used to play in rock bands - he's fine with E, A, G, etc. when the tune calls for it.
And the singer's range pretty much always determines the key required.
But, of course, there's also, "Dm - the saddest of all keys!"
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The singer calls the key, period.
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Correct! Originally Posted by AlohaJoe
Tell this guy if it's so much trouble for him
You know a Bon Jovi cover band that's looking...
And they do everything in E and A.Last edited by Captain Caravelle; 04-21-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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This. You find it in gypsy jazz as well. E7 licks for instance do take advantage of open strings because they bark a bit more than when you play the licks in other keys. The difference is substantial. Originally Posted by Captain Caravelle
But any player should have a bag that is key-independent to be prepared for any situation.
That's why I practice all my concepts in all 12 keys.
If I'm given charts in keys like B or Gb a day before the gig, I'll be prepared to comp and solo the next day in most cases if it's a simple American songbook standard and not some weird Coltrane thing. Though a professional will sight read a chart on the spot and comp and solo at a high level. I believe Reg is one of the guys here with that ability, which is something we all should strive to be able to do. It WILL land you gigs.
So my post didn't address country music in particular, but I wanted to make a comparison. The concept of keys are the same and I'm sure in country music it should be possible to work out key independent accompaniments and solos as well. Gotta pay yer dues
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Agreed.... Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
This. You find it in gypsy jazz as well. E7 licks for instance do take advantage of open strings because they bark a bit more than when you play the licks in other keys. The difference is substantial.
But any player should have a bag that is key-independent to be prepared for any situation.
That's why I practice all my concepts in all 12 keys.
If I'm given charts in keys like B or Gb a day before the gig, I'll be prepared to comp and solo the next day in most cases if it's a simple American songbook standard and not some weird Coltrane thing. Though a professional will sight read a chart on the spot and comp and solo at a high level. I believe Reg is one of the guys here with that ability, which is something we all should strive to be able to do. It WILL land you gigs.
So my post didn't address country music in particular, but I wanted to make a comparison. The concept of keys are the same and I'm sure in country music it should be possible to work out key independent accompaniments and solos as well. Gotta pay yer dues
Your job is to play the gig
That gig can entail any key, tempo, speed, feel, etc.
If you can't cover those aspects you're not going to keep your job very long.
Like the saying goes....
"You must be this tall to get on this ride"
If you have difficulties with certain keys the obvious answer is to practice and overcome those shortcomings
Not whine about them.
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I don't know how much tact is usually used in your group, but you could say "Your Bb bitching is getting real boring, so why don't you just play."
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