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I've always wanted to learn how to sound different playing over typical rock changes...i.e. D to C to G for example. I can rip it up in your basic blues which i guess is the pentonic scale. But i want to play more progressive licks or jazz/rock licks. So now i kind of noticed that if i move up 3 tones from D and play typical jazz scales in F it kind of works.
But need suggestions.
Ken
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09-18-2008 08:28 AM
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If you're blowing over triads like that you can use many things to step out. You could stick with pentatonics and move them around like:
D-C-G you could play Em pentatonic, Am pentatonic, Bm pentatonic to sound inside, then to step out you could move to Bbm pentatonic, Ebm pentatonic or Fm Pentatonic.
To use modes to step out on these chords try playing G major to give the inside sound, then move into Ab major, or Eb major, or Db major or Bb major or F major, then back to G major. You could also try D half/whole diminished, or D whole tone, or D Augmented or D tri-tone scales for a more exotic sound.
MW
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So can you play in just one of those major keys over all 3 chords like i was playing in FMaj over the entire change?
Thx
Ken
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Well yes and no, I wouldn't play F major over the whole progression without first playing G major. So you could play an idea in G major, then to step "outside" use any/all of those scales I mentioned above, then go back to G major. This way you are stating your idea, then pushing it outside, then resolving the tension by bringing it back into the key center.
MW
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That sounds kool i will give it a try, this has been very frustrating for me cuz i play jazz lines over jazz changes no problem. Buti want to sound like those guys that either can play outside of rock changes or play cooler sounding licks and get away from the blues/pentonic sound.Another thing i'm confused about is playing triads over these changes. Would that be your normal scale or something different where you leave off the 7th tone?
Thanks for your help, i really want to figure this out already
ken
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You can definately use triads. Take the 1-4-5 major triads from any of the keys above and use them over this progression. That'll allow you to use triads but in an "outside" context. So for example try playing Ab-Db-Eb triads over this progression for an outside sound.
If you are looking to get the rock feel I would suggest taking a look at a Satriani or Vai transcription to see how they apply these things. You'd be suprised how many of their cool outside lines are just simple ideas but used in a new and cool way.
MW
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So when you say play Ab triad your talking about playng notes Ab ,C and Eb notes right? Snd if so don't i need other notes as well? Or do i play all those different Triads Ab-Db-Eb and each one has 3 notes off of it? Am i making this harder then it has to be or is it really this difficult
I'll need to print out all your answers
thx
ken
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You can try just Ab C Eb, or just Db F Ab, or just Eb G Bb. Or any combination of 2 or more of those triads. If you are going to use this method you should try and outline the triads with at least two notes in order, that way you still maintain the sound of the triad. You can also add passing triads.
So even on the original changes you could play C-C#-D
so a line in 8th notes over one bar might be like
ECG G#C# DF#A
MW
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Thanks for all your help, i'm at work now but will give it a try to night when i get home and see what it sounds like.
Ken
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i dont know why but for me the dorian and harmonic minor sound great when played over thoes blues/rock changes , so you can try that two scales !
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sweet home alabama?
Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
without overthinking it, a little chromaticsism and some side stepping go a long way over a simple progression like this.
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It could be Sweet Home or a 1000 other songs, I'm learning at the JBGI so i'm not learning modes. But of course he has the 5 shapes that are closely related i suspect. I just want to be able to play something other then blues based licks over rock changes.. like Larry Carlton,Satriani and others.
Thx
Ken
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i was playing around a bit wit the "sweet home alabama" line...
How do you like the Jimmy Bruno Institute? When you say you're not looking at modes, does he teach it from the standpoint of relating the modes back to the major scale--or does he just not touch on that at all?
but back to what i was getting at--side stepping and chromaticism can go a long way. try a say, 5 note figure over the D in D. play eighth notes, and move the same pattern back and play it in Db in between the change to C...then move it back one more half step and let it resolve in C over the C. there's hundreds of things like this you can do.
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Yes i love the JBGI, w/o question it's the most comprehensive jazz learning site online. He does'nt use modes or even mention them, he uses whats called pitch collections. He has 5 shapes for each key. I guess for modes there are 7, but we don't get into that at all. This simplfy's your thinking and makies it much easier to play over changes. He also analizes tunes from melody,comping and soloing.
Ken
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Mr. B- Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Here is what I wrote about the Jimmy Bruno site a little while back. I am still a member.
It has been almost 2 months since I joined and I have concluded that it is well worth it. I wish this site had been around 20 years ago when I first picked up the guitar - I would be infinitely better than I am now. Some observations:
1. This is a very systematic step-by-step approach. It is like having a syllabus for how to proceed to learn improv.
2. There are no shortcuts. You have to practice, practice, practice. You will get out only what you put in. The beauty of it is that you are told what to practice and in what order - again, it's very systematic.
3. I have not taken advantage of posting videos of me doing the exercises and getting critiqued, but it is worth watching the other students and (some) of Jimmy's critiques - I find only a minority of the critiques to be useful - mainly because there is only so much a person can say about somebody else doing scales.
4. The materials (mainly pdf files) are useful to print out for self-study.
5. I have learned the fingerboard to a much better extent than before.
6. His improv system actually is very easy to apply to other types of musical genres -especially rock, where the songs are all in one key rather than changing keys every few bars like jazz. When I use his system, I am able to solo confidently all over the neck rather than being stuck in one pattern like I had been doing before.
7. He really points out the logic of the guitar fretboard, so there is far less memorization. There are many "a-ha!" moments.
8. You don't need to learn the modes and various scales. This is both good and bad. It is bad because without knowing theory, you are not really undertanding why you are doing something; knowing the theory behind what you are doing makes you a smarter player in my opinion and also helps with composing and arranging your own material. On the other hand, not having to know the theory behind what you're playing at any given moment actually makes it easier to keep playing and not get lost. In other words, you don't need to think "ok now I am playing the e-flat bebop minor scale and now the chord is changing to something else, what do I play now?" By the time you figure out what scale needs to be played, its already a different chord and a different scale. Jimmy's system doesn't require you to do that kind of on-the-spot thinking, which is great for keeping playing. But learning the theory somewhere else let's you understand why what you played worked. I recommnd the Jazz Theory Book by Levine, touted elsewhere on this website for that purpose.
My wife is yelling at me to come to dinner, so I will stop now. Again, I am glad I joined up. At 60 dollars U.S. for 3 months, it is well worth it.
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alright guys, how does jimmy bruno approach a basic progression like 2.5.1? or 1.6.2.5? does he go for a different scale on each chord along with arpeggios, upper extensions and subs etc or does he approach it with just 1 of the scale fingerings you mentioned above? i cant decide whether to join or not and just wanted a little taster on how he would approach something like this.does he get you to outline all the changes first and taget 3rds and 7ths etc or is it just like 'heres the sound of this fingering over a 2.5.1, go and work on it.' any advice would be greatly recieved cheers
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It's hard to give a complete answer to your question oleo but here's an attempt.
Jimmy's approach is to initially teach you all the "inside" notes that would be playable for a particular 2-5-1 (or 1-6-2-5 or whatever progression you like). These notes are all available in 5 patterns called the 5 shapes. For instance, for Dm7/G7/CMaj7, you would use the 5 shapes in the key of C. He places heavy emphasis on arpeggios and just making melodies that sound pleasing based on what you are hearing in your head using the arpeggios as guides and then using other inside notes in that tone collection to flesh things out. You don't need to worry about thinking about playing a D Dorian followed by a G Mixolydian followed by a C Ionian or adding extensions, etc. He wants the player to not intellectualize while they are playing but to play from the gut without having to worry about playing the wrong note. He also teaches you how to quickly analyze the tune to figure out what pitch collections to use. You essentially become able to look at a tune and say "that's a 251 in C and then a 2,5 in Bb, and then a 2,5,1 in G (i'm just throwing out random progressions to illustrate a point), so in bars 1-3 I'll play this pitch collection, in 4 and 5, that pitch collection, and 6-8 that pitch collection." And you use arpeggios and melodic lines, etc to express yourself without having to think about modes. The 5 shapes concept is nice because it allows you to play over two unrelated chords (i.e. they are in different keys) without having to figure out the individual notes you need to play and you can stay in the same area of the fingerboard. As an example, let's say you have 1 bar of CMaj7 follwed by 1 bar of DMaj7. These chords are from 2 different major keys. I can solo over CMaj7 using shape 5 in C, which is in the 3rd position on the fingerboard and then solo over DMaj7 using shape 3 in D which is at the 2nd position on the fingerboard. Thus, all I need to do to stay on "inside" notes in these 2 different keys is shift my position a half-step down and make sure I play in the correct shape. I don't have to worry about playing an F# over CMaj7 (which would be "wrong") or playing an F over DMaj7 (also "wrong"). Once you get comfortable doing this type of "inside" playing in all 12 keys, he introduces "outside" playing. I have not gotten to that part of the course yet - it is in level 3 and I am still in level 1.
In doing all of the above, you actually learn where the different scale degrees are so you can do things like targetting 3rd and 7ths, use substitutions, etc , and he does point these things out quite a bit in his tune analysis. The bottom line is that you learn how to quickly analyze the tune in about 10 to 20 seconds when you first look it over, and once you've done that, you don't have to do it while you're playing.
I hope this begins to answer your question. My opinion is that there are a lot worse things you can do with 60 dollars than spend them on 3 months of access to the JBGI.
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Yes i belong to JB site as well, with the 5 shapes it becomes effortless to play over Jazz changes and the arpeggios that are needed are in all 5 shapes, it really makes it quite simple to learn. Of course he gets alot deeper into improv and analysis. He is still adding to site and of course one of the great things is you send a video of yourself playing and he looks at and will give you a video response.
Ken
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awesome cheers for that guys, the JBGI sounds like a good source to check out and it doesnt sound overly pricey, thanks for the helpful responses from BOB and GUITAR PLAYER
so its worth the money? do you get access to everything on the site for 60 dollars?
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Yes access to everything, there is only one level. You get all these levels of lessons, all the tunes he has analized. You get to submit videos to Jimmy for review. You also get to look at every single video everyone else has submitted with Jimmy responding back to that video with his own video. Lets put it this way , you would $60.00 a month for this easily. But all we pay is $20.00 a month
Ken
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Hi Matt,
Can you just explain how i should think when playing over rock changes..i.e. Larry Carlton. Meaning as an example i', play that D, C, G ..chord progression. You said i can play G Maj, which i did last night and it works well, is that cuz Gmaj is the 4 chord in D?
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the G major scale works over those three chords because they are the V, IV, and I chord in G, respectively.
Even though the progression starts on D, we're viewing it from the perspective of all 3 chords belonging to G major. You could also view it as thinking D mixolydian, which is the same notes as G major, from D to D.
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So it does'nt matter if the chords are major or minor?
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absolutely yes, it does!
i'm talking about the chords coming from harmonizing a scale. in the case of D, C, and G, all three chords come from the G major scale.
G A B C D E F#
to harmonize a scale, we start with the first note, and then take every other note to build a triad. essentially, we're stacking thirds
so G, to B (major third) to D (minor third) gives us a G major triad. you could do the same for C and D.
if the chords were minor, we'd be looking at things completely different. Gm, Cm and Dm all belong to the Bb major scale...but that's getting at something different completely...
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Ok thats what i thought, So the scales goes.... Maj mi mi maj maj mi Dim? I don't want to live in the Pentionic world for rock. I can play very well over jazz changes at this point. But as i stated i want to be able to mix it up when playing rock. I played usuing the Gmaj and FMaj and also used what matt said playing Em Pent and Bm pent which sounded cool as well. I did'nt sound all bluzy for once, but more melodic. But i want to understand the theory behind it all
Thx
ken
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