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  1. #1
    now come on guys shred isnt music

    ITS F**KIN AWESOME!


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  3. #2

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    alright missmisstreater, reccomend me some shred...because i don't think i've been hearing the right stuff. i'd describe it as F---ing something, but not "awesome."

    do the dixie dregs count? i've always kinda liked that stuff.

  4. #3
    ok...errrr..

    shred is an extreme

    take any genre to virtuoso levels and it becomes shred, (sometimes taking on a new name aswel)

    so jazz to shred becomes more fusion, gambale, holdsworth
    the epitome is bret garsed imo

    the theres the rock shreders
    now any tuition book will tell you guitar players add fast licks to solos coz theyre exciting... so there are two types of rock shreder

    ones that play songs with fast solos
    paul gilbert - mrbig era
    nuno bettencourt - extreme (check pornograffiti)

    then ones that just shred shred shred

    Ron jarzombek - i highly recommend spastic inks "ink compatible" as these time sig changes are off the wall

    then theres those amazing bands that fuse it all together

    dream theater!

    but yeah, anything steve morse plays has a shreddy edge, his alternate picking is awesome, so the dregs definitely have that edge

    oh then theres the more unacceptable neoclassical style but i like some of it
    cacophony
    malmsteen (ok thats not too good)
    but i do recommend jason beckers album perpetual burn

    then theres the other players
    rusty cooley (check outworld)

    then again mr. beaumont if you dont like distortion alot of it will be lost on purists...i appreciate music AND techniques

  5. #4

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    I have won several prizes as the world's slowest alto player, as well as a special award in 1961 for quietness.

    On a related note ...
    At this point, it is impossible to shock people, or get them to focus on anything by virtue of it being louder. Quiet is the new loud.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    alright missmisstreater, reccomend me some shred...because i don't think i've been hearing the right stuff. i'd describe it as F---ing something, but not "awesome."
    hahaha... that's a quote. I'm sort of with you on that. I use to really like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. I've never been a big Malmsteen fan, but hey, he's a big enough fan of himself that he doesn't really need all of us. Ever since I've been getting into jazz I've lost a lot of my love of shred. I think the defining moment when jazz totally kicked my love of shred to the curb was the moment I saw the youtube video of Joe Pass and NHOP playing Donna Lee. I mean come on, faster tempos, more complex harmonies (by a lot), no distortion to hide behind, and (in Niels' case) no frets. I prefer the virtuosity of a guy like Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery that is more suited to the jazz genre. That being said, those guys really do know what they're doing. Satch and Steve Vai, in particular, are top-notch musicians. I really don't like a lot of flamboyant "shred for the sake of shred" players (ala Malmsteen) but there are definitely guys out there that are genuine phenomenal musicians that just prefer the "high octane" energy rock music provides as opposed to the more subtle energy and drive of swing.

    To Mr. B. If you want to listen to some genuinely musical shred, then check out Steve Vai's "For the Love of God". Very melodic and musical and then of course he builds it up to an all-out, eight finger tapping, shred-fest. That kind thing still isn't my bag a' chips but I can definitely appreciate it more than some of the other shred.

  7. #6
    cant agree there, as expressive as vai is, when it really comes down to it most of his music is him widdling over a backing.... i mean i own all of vais cds and can play alot of his stuff... but then it dawned on me....its nt that impressive...

    basicly when i discovered dream theater i saw steve for what he is

    dream theater is 4 virtuoso musicians with interweiving complexities

    vais just a great guitarist with a backing band (noit that his live bands arent phenominal) vais one to watch not listen to

  8. #7

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    I'm with you on Dream Theater. No offense, but I really don't like the music that much, but damn. That's about the only word to describe Dream Theater. "Damn". With a capital "D". As far as all the progressive rock shredders go, John Petrucci is head and shoulders above anyone. The keyboard player and bassist follow his solos note for note. Unbelievable stuff. On top of those three being unbelievable, in my opinion the drummer is the most talented of the three (although there's a certain point that they've reached where they're all so ridiculous that it doesn't really matter). I mean the way the drummer plays ridiculously complicated beats over songs that change time signature every few measures. Can't argue with you on that my man. I may not like their music, but those guys are talented.

  9. #8
    lol hell yeah

    check out blotted science and spastic ink if you want real complexity! notes will be whizzing by in all manner of odd time sigs like 23/16

    thats insane

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    vais one to watch not listen to
    Sounds like he should quit recording and join Cirque du Soleil.

  11. #10

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    Haha. I don't know if I'd go quite that far. The fan on stage (to cool him off? or to make sure his hair is flowing behind him properly?) and the slinging the guitar around is a little much for my taste, but he's a good musician. I'm perfectly happy to watch a video of Joe Pass sitting on a stool alone in the middle of a stage and playing to his heart's content so the whole operatic "rockin' out" part of rock music has never really appealed to me. Even when I was really into the rock it was Grateful Dead and the Allman Bros. who would just get up there and play their music without worrying about what they looked like.

  12. #11

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    I'm guessing that in 20 years Steve Vai and the rest of the shredders will be historical curiosities while Joe Pass' influence will remain intact.

  13. #12

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    nah. who does joe pass influence? jazz folks. not a big portion of the population.

    who does steve vai influence? shred folks. not a big portion of the population.

    as long as these genres of music stay alive, both of these players will remain viable...but don't kid yourself into thinking the influence of joe pass is any larger or more lasting than vai--i'd say 7 out of 10 people on the street (maybe 8 or 9) don't even know who joe pass is.

    JMHO, but sad but true, if ya ask me.

  14. #13

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    Paganini on Violin. Now that's some serious shred

  15. #14

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    Paganini on Violin. Now that's some serious shred
    ha! ha! very good John!

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    nah. who does joe pass influence? jazz folks. not a big portion of the population.

    .
    I don't use the term influence as it pertains to people but rather to the instument and the genre. As the first real virtuoso jazz guitar improviser , I think Joe Pass' influence on jazz and guitar playing in general is secure and will easily outstrip the best illusions of the shredder. Maybe I'm just getting old.

  17. #16
    steve vai is definitely bigger, 100% it took me LONG time to discover joe since steves music is so readily avalible, the guy in my local classical/jazz store had no idea who joe was, and iv STILL never met anyone who knows who joe is without me having to show them, which is a shame, joe is by far my fav jazz guitarist EVER! hes so inspirational

    @ john, exactly! paganini started it all i think, i mean whats so different between paganini, charlie parker, shawn lane and guthrie govan...i mean theyre all virtuosos what makes the guitarists so faux pas....y do people turn their noses up at shreders? all inspirational guys

    have you all listened to jimmy brunos album solo? i mean thats shred!!! it blew my head off, but just coz there is no distorion

    i think ur all falling into the category of moldy figs.....

    i always thought that jazz fans were the most open minded, we prideo ourselves on appreciating ambiguous harmonies and experimental soloing styles, y do we turn our noses up at people who practice alot? are you gonna get to a point where you can say, oh no, cant practice anymore...il get TOO good
    Last edited by MissMisstreater; 07-28-2008 at 08:27 PM. Reason: unfinished

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    steve vai is definitely bigger, 100% it took me LONG time to discover joe since steves music is so readily avalible...

    ...@ john, exactly! paganini started it all i think, i mean whats so different between paganini, charlie parker, shawn lane and guthrie govan...i mean theyre all virtuosos what makes the guitarists so faux pas....y do people turn their noses up at shreders? all inspirational guys...


    i think ur all falling into the category of moldy figs.....

    i always thought that jazz fans were the most open minded, we prideo ourselves on appreciating ambiguous harmonies and experimental soloing styles, y do we turn our noses up at people who practice alot? are you gonna get to a point where you can say, oh no, cant practice anymore...il get TOO good

    First off... I really don't think Steve Vai is as well known as you think. We all assume that everyone knows who Joe Pass is just because we worship him. You're sort of doing the same thing with Steve Vai (not to say you worship him, but I'm just saying you love that style of music). I would say 9 out of ten people off the street don't know who Joe Pass and I'd say the same for Steve Vai. Many (perhaps not even most) experienced and/or serious guitarists know who Steve Vai is, but we shouldn't forget that, believe it or not, we are in the minority. Most guitarists are just weekend players who pick up the instrument when they have time. Some are good, but most don't study the instrument in depth and don't know who a lot of these non-mainstream guitarists are.

    Also, my guitar teacher gave me Paganini's "Rain" once. Wow. Craziness. A lot of the time we forget how influential classical music was to a lot of early jazz musicians, particularly in regards to technique. Charlie Parker and John Coltrane spent loads of time learning Bach pieces. I would say that they can play fairly fast. haha. Also one thing that a lot of people forget is that most of these classical composers didn't "compose" these pieces. They improvised them and then decided they liked them enough to write them down as they remembered them. How's that for impressive?

    As for that third paragraph there... This is actually a surprisingly open-minded community of musicians. Yes, I'm sorry, there are many, many stodgy overly traditional jazz musicians, but that's the way it is. I have a ton of friends who I play rock music with. We're talking Blues-Rock and Grateful Dead or Allman Brothers stuff. As far as rock goes, that's pretty jazzy. Anyway, these friends say that "all jazz sounds like elevator music", they pretend to fall asleep whenever I'm listening to jazz music, and they give me weird looks when I play a jazzier passage or chord voicing in a rock tune. Nothing against them. That's just the way it is. So as for your "moldy fig" comment... that's a double edged sword. In every genre you'll find tons of musicians who really experiment and are totally open to crossing over into other styles and you'll find some that absolutely won't even consider it.

  19. #18
    i agree with all of that except the underestimation of steves influence on the world of guitar...hes been featured in crapy publications such as total guitar right up to the best like guitar techniques numerous times, iv seen joe i GT twice....then theres the ibanez jem....dont get me started on that pretentious shreder tool...hes an overrated guitar icon....

    but no, i dont like steve...i like watching him as he always has a good backingband the highlight being the breed (tony macalpine, billy sheehan, virgil donati, dave weiner) im not big on his music at all

    i pride myself on being inspred by anything and everything, as mick thomson said "set ur standards up here (raises hand above head) as you can always play down here (lowers hand to knees)" very wise words from the man that got me into shred

    im saying we should all be shreders, what i am saying is that from my experience people who cant run up and down the fretboard condem shred untill their fingers learn to move faster....

    define shred... to me its mastery of your instrument, virtuoso and showing it.. or virtuoshow

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    define shred... to me its mastery of your instrument, virtuoso and showing it.. or virtuoshow

    I think that's where a lot of the jazz guys lose the shred thing...

    I define shred as "mastery of one aspect of your instrument, virtuoso and flaunting it."

    haha... now I'm just twisting your words. I know that not all shredders are arrogant jerks (even though most have earned the right to be) and all shredders are extremely talented. I do think that we've at least now come to the root of the problem. Exactly what we thought it was. Interpretation. We're back where we started. haha.

  21. #20
    lol, surely playing fast is their way of expressing themselves...i mean if im feeling grumpy i find nothing more invigorationg than running around my neck mixing up wholetone and augmented scales.... to me the #5 releases that frustration....

    when im feeling happy ill run through a slow ballad and get REALLY ott on phrasing and all the nuances that only us guitarists have...

    its interesting that only one jazzer has come up in this...ol joe pass who is renound for a series of albums called virtuoso.... where he has a

    "mastery of one aspect of your instrument, virtuoso and flaunting it."

    yet noone bats an eyelid, i find joes work more exciting that say wes montgomery. its a thrill thing you dont ride a slow rollercoster...or dream of the new ferrari prius... speed is exciting

    to a point of course...some people take it too far...but i dont think the artists iv mentioned cross that line

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    lol, surely playing fast is their way of expressing themselves...
    its interesting that only one jazzer has come up in this...ol joe pass who is renound for a series of albums called virtuoso.... where he has a

    "mastery of one aspect of your instrument, virtuoso and flaunting it."

    Haha... nice. You got me. To be honest, I really admire Joe Pass for all the struggles he overcame and for the fact that he's a ridiculously good player, but he's not really someone I listen to for pure enjoyment. That is a good point, though. What it comes down to is that rock guys love Steve Vai. He shreds and shows everyone up and they love it, but Joe Pass just doesn't have that kick. Jazz guys love Joe Pass because he shreds and shows everyone up and they love it, but Steve Vai is too square, to showy. aaaaaand we're back. Right back where we started. Beauty (and shred) is in the ear of the beholder.

  23. #22

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    You mention distortion as the thing that is keeping Jimmy Bruno from becoming a certified shredder. So where does John McLaughlin, Early Larry Coryell, Al Dimeola , Bill Connors (RTF b4 Al D) fit in on your list?

    Have you listened to Birds of Fire? or other early Mahavisnu Orchestra? Larry's early Spaces album or Chick Correa's albums from the same period?

    If by Moldy figs you mean it as OLD, then perhaps you should listen to these pioneers of distorted guitar jazz or jazz/rock SHRED from the late 60s ans 70's. (my era)

    (Some modern day shredders with proecessed guitar sounds, Scofield and Stern. and let's not forget Warren Haynes for the Rock catagory!)

    Also missing from your list of rock or Prog rock shredders are Frank Zapppa and Robert Fripp. Frank was so well 'fused' (as in fusion) that the real book even has some of his compositions in it!

    One thing I would like to point out though is, mastery does not always equate to speed. nothing is more boring than 128th notes in a ballad. (and belive me I just as guilty of doing that as anyone else.) speed has it's place , and thats usually in tunes that have tempos in excess of 150bpm

    Every musician should set goals for themselves so that they contiunally grow. I think you should also listen to what has gone on in the past and keep your ears open to what's happening NOW.

    Just so you know, when I hear these guys you mention (Steve, Joe , etc, btw, you forgot Jennifer Batten) they amaze me. And I'm gladd to see that all the pioneering guitarists form Karl Kress to Django (now here's a shredder for you!) to Charlie Christian, Wes, etc,etc have all laid some heavy duty ground work so that all these 'young' upstarts can keep the tradtion alive and carry the torch to the next level.
    Last edited by JohnW400; 07-28-2008 at 10:40 PM.

  24. #23
    yes, i love mahavishnu orchestra, i havnt heard larrys stuff, but i am fond of chick correas electric band....very sinful of me to forget these guys it brings to mind a life changing album

    friday night in san franscisco (i know its a different genre)

    but yeah, the mahavishnu orchestra dvd is one of the favs in my collection

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    One thing I would like to point out though is, mastery does not always equate to speed. nothing is more boring than 128th notes in a ballad. (and belive me I just as guilty of doing that as anyone else.) speed has it's place , and thats usually in tunes that have tempos in excess of 150bpm
    Ditto... I was introduced to jazz through early so-called "shred" (although we didn't call it that) Mahavishnu, RTF, even Zappa, which I still love, but the more I learned about jazz the more I gravitated to the era when the jazz language was created and evolved. Really, bebop was the ultimate culmination of the jazz language. It has been asserted in the academic world that bebop is to jazz as Latin is to English ... it has had tremendous influence on the languge but nobody really speaks it anymore. Everything that followed is a dialect.

    IMO if the idea of shed is to show-off technique and mastery of the "fingerboard" (as opposed to music) then it is an unfortunate evolution of the jazz languge that somehow has more to do with ego than art. But I don't like the speed thing anymore so that really shapes my opinion.

    I've already said too much to express a simple idea... OMG I thnk I must be shredding.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
    I've already said too much to express a simple idea... OMG I thnk I must be shredding.
    haha... that's a keeper.

  27. #26

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    so would faulkner be "literary shred?"

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    so would faulkner be "literary shred?"

    Nah, he's actually too good to be considered shred. Maybe some of his juvenalia would qualify?

  29. #28

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    So guys. I was thinking about the Joe Pass vein of this argument from earlier in this thread. I'm sort of changing my opinion on that. Not a flip flop, but I said that it really comes down to jazz guys don't think jazz guys shredding is bad and rock guys love it when rock guys shred. But I was thinking. Jazz guys don't necessarily think that shredding is ok just because it's in a jazz setting. A lot of people love Joe Pass because when when he's "shredding" he still swings and when he's not "shredding" he's playing his chord solos and I think a lot of people love Joe for the chord solo. On top of that there are a bunch of guys on the "Players you just don't get" thread that say they don't like jazz guys because they're too busy. A couple I remembering hearing were Mike Stern and Allen Holdsworth (even though they're more fusion), Bireli Lagrene (who plays gypsy and straightahead). So it definitely is taste in music. Jazz guys don't tend to be into progressive shred rock and vice versa. But also there are a lot of players (me) who appreciate it and even like it, but just prefer ballads and swings with some nice melodic solos as opposed to pedal to the metal 64th notes (even though as Mr. B said earlier, when used correctly those balls to the wall solos at 200 bpm can really get the job done).

  30. #29

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    So guys. I was thinking about the Joe Pass vein of this argument from earlier in this thread. I'm sort of changing my opinion on that. Not a flip flop, but I said that it really comes down to jazz guys don't think jazz guys shredding is bad and rock guys love it when rock guys shred. But I was thinking. Jazz guys don't necessarily think that shredding is ok just because it's in a jazz setting. A lot of people love Joe Pass because when when he's "shredding" he still swings and when he's not "shredding" he's playing his chord solos and I think a lot of people love Joe for the chord solo. On top of that there are a bunch of guys on the "Players you just don't get" thread that say they don't like jazz guys because they're too busy. A couple I remembering hearing were Mike Stern and Allen Holdsworth (even though they're more fusion), Bireli Lagrene (who plays gypsy and straightahead). So it definitely is taste in music. Jazz guys don't tend to be into progressive shred rock and vice versa. But also there are a lot of players (me) who appreciate it and even like it, but just prefer ballads and swings with some nice melodic solos as opposed to pedal to the metal 64th notes. As Mr. B said earlier, when used correctly those balls to the wall solos at 200 bpm can really get the job done, but even in a rock/ blues setting, I'll take Jimi or Derek Trucks or B.B. King over Satch or Vai any day of the week. Some people just identify differently with the way the music is played.

  31. #30

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    Frankly, I find shred incredibly BORING. I have been a big Satriani, Patrucci, Steve Morse, et al fan for a long time. Saw G3 with Ywngie, and was bored after 10 minutes. Satriani is at least melodic. Seen Patrucci with Dream Theater a few times, loved it. His trio was boring to me, because it was all about him constantly blowing.

    As John pointed out, speed for the sake of speed is just musical masterbation. See Dragon Farce as an example. Using speed as you would any embelishment is great. Would you want to bend every note, or put vibrato on each one? Why would you want hear or play fast all the time?

    I just don't get the worship of speed. Frankly, if anyone locks themselves in their room for a couple of years and just runs scales, licks for hours on end, they too can shred. Not musical. Guys like Jimmy Bruno get dangerously close at times to the melodic vs masterbation thing imo. I guess we each have a threshold where it becomes tedious.

    Imo, Steve Vai's legacy/influence has as much to do with being a sideman with the iconic Frank Zappa, the ever in your face David Lee Roth, the Devil's guitarist in Crossroads, G3 with Satriani, and his Favored Nations Label, as it does with his own recordings.

  32. #31
    i couldt agree more on petruccis trio being boring, its pointless, altough he does explore some beautiful melodies its a steve vai style situation...he just DOESNT interact with the band like he does in Dream theater,

    and it just dawned on me

    DRAGONFORCE is shred for shreds sake.... but bands like protest the hero? (check bloodmeat - actually all of fortress)
    its not worth listening to unless its technical....speed is pointless...complexity does it FOR ME

    listen to shoenberg and the other vienese school of atonal composers, its mathmatical, it PUSHES boundaries

    check some Ron Jarzombek

    a headache and a 64th - bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 1/64 this puts your internal clock at unrest

    two thirds of satan - all of the bars are 6/4 + 6/4 the notes are used in 2 sets of 6 (E,A#,B,G,C#,D, and C,F,Gb,G#,A,D#) each cluster contains a tritone which has 2 notes 6 half steps apart, the clusters move up (or down) 6 half steps

    gimmie 5 - all quintuplets, in 5/4, 5 measures per phrase, theme 1 in bmaj (5 sharps) theme 2 Db (5 flats) there are only 5 pitches used in each theme....

    this is musical exploration...

    the man has his own compositional devices (the circle of 12 tones)
    surely he is achieving much more for music than say...freddie green or tal farlow ever did? or the countless artists that just release version after version of jazz standards.....

  33. #32

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    You must thrive on controversy.

    12 tone music had its time. It came and went. Too limiting.

    Have you listened to Art Ensemble of Chicago? Sonny Sharrock? James Blood Ulmer? Ornette Coleman. Have you ever experimented with free improvisation? no key, no time. just blow. It's not for everybody. Most of the musicians following this calling survive on arts grants.

    You look like you want to compare "artsy" music to jazz guitarists so lets compare music to other arts. Lets say around the cool period in jazz. (I'm most familiar with this period history wise)

    There are countless innovators who pushed the envelope at one time or another. Jack Kerouac, William Boroughs, William De Koning, Mark Rothko, Jackson Pollack. All radical thinkers and artists who started out 'coloring in the lines" up until they had an idea.

    . Doesn't mean they were any more explorers than any other painter or writer. They just followed a different school of thought. Mark Rothko always painted portraits and landscapes except his were based on different colored rectangles rather than identifiable faces or nature scenes. still, it was a landscape or a portrait. And with all the writers it still came down to conflict. Man against 'something'. Nowadays all this abstract and 'beat' generation stuff gave birth to new movements but along with these movents people are still painting portraits and landscapes and writers are still writing 'normal' novels.

    You mention Tal and Freddie Green. But you're not looking at their contributions in terms of "when" they were plying their trade. You can't compare them by todays standards. They were yesterdays pioneers. There time also came and went. Their art, at least in Tals case, was spontaneous compostion better known as improvisation. Doesn't mean it wasn't extremely fresh and "new school " when he started playing it.

    Today a maj9th is pretty tame. Back a few centuries it was radical. today we're used to tone clusters and super close voiced chords. Playing the inside of a piano is passe. "Prepared" guitar has been around a long time. whats next?


    As far as countless players contiunualy playing standards, it's because some like to, and some like eat and have a roof over their head. doesn't mean they don't experiment and push the boundry on their off time. It's just the nature of the beast.

    One more example (and I'm sorry for being long winded) Vic Juris. Vic has some really excellent CD's of original compositions. some in different settings like piano and guitar and others with quartets. Some a bit "out". I haven't had the opportunity to asked him but I bet his best selling CD's are the ones where he covers standards rather than his own stuff.
    Last edited by JohnW400; 07-30-2008 at 08:43 PM.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    now come on guys shred isnt music

    ITS F**KIN AWESOME!



    I love this post spawned such a deep conversation about art. Nice.

    This has become quite an interesting conversation though.

  35. #34
    dont apologise for being long winded, like you said, its turned into a very interesting conversation

    atonal isnt dead, shoenberg just ran out of ideas! i beg you to read and (if you dare) experiment with the following two articles

    The Circle Of 12 Tones
    The Circle Of 12 Tones

    iv tried the free jazz approach, but i find it hard to distinguish between mastery and incompetence, when i first started learning to play guitar, and i took long solos, i had no knowledge of keys scales and arpeggios so id play it safe, moving around a little, finding motifs i liked and shifting them about etc....DONT confuse that with free jazz...it was incompetence, a monkey could have done it, its only when you start to learn rules that playing becomes more consonant (remember learning ii-V changes then what scales fit over then and more importantly WHY)

    to me, free jazz is the oposite of atonality, it may not have a tonal centre at times, but it has no rules...therefore you cant get it wrong...

    whereas with tone row manipulation you can do it wrong as threre are a strict set of rules

  36. #35

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    Finally! I've been a guitar player for nearly 40 years, but when I kept seeing all theses references to shredding and shredders on the net, I never knew exactly what they were talking about. My teenage students throw the word around a lot, but I've gotten more from the context then the actual word. Now it's becoming clear. So let's see, with a city-for-city criteria, Godzilla would be more of a shredder say, then King Kong, right? But not as big of a shredder as ... mmm... a fire-bombing? Attila was a huge shredder compared to Gandhi? And Hunter Thompson definitely moreso then Walt Whitman. How am I doing?

  37. #36

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    Just as I wouldn't dis say, Malmstein as compared to Vai, I meant no disrespect to Gigantor or his fans, nor Mothra and his (her?) fans for that matter. Am I correct in thinking Alec Baldwin is a much bigger shredder then Laurence Olivier?

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    i find it hard to distinguish between mastery and incompetence,
    well, there's a fine line between clever and stupid

    and bonus points to whoever names the shredder who said that.

  39. #38

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    MissMissTreater,

    I took a quick glance at your links. Very interesting stuff. Almost like I Ching. Is this your work? When I have more time I'm going to check out the links. Interesting concept.

    It is similar to some theories Pat Martino was talking about years ago. I never really studied what he was talking about (other than his ideas about the diminshed chord as the starting point rather than the maj7th). But I think his ideas and what is listed in your post are along similar lines.

  40. #39
    sadly not, i have used the concepts however, this is the work of guitarist Ron Jarzombek, like i say i highly recommend checking out his work with blotted science or spastic ink or his solo album Solitary Speaking Of Theoretical Confinement....(assuming you can enjoy heavy music!)

    an mr beaumont....of course iv seen spinal tap!!! lol

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    hahaha... that's a quote. I'm sort of with you on that. I use to really like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. I've never been a big Malmsteen fan, but hey, he's a big enough fan of himself that he doesn't really need all of us. Ever since I've been getting into jazz I've lost a lot of my love of shred. I think the defining moment when jazz totally kicked my love of shred to the curb was the moment I saw the youtube video of Joe Pass and NHOP playing Donna Lee. I mean come on, faster tempos, more complex harmonies (by a lot), no distortion to hide behind, and (in Niels' case) no frets. I prefer the virtuosity of a guy like Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery that is more suited to the jazz genre. That being said, those guys really do know what they're doing. Satch and Steve Vai, in particular, are top-notch musicians. I really don't like a lot of flamboyant "shred for the sake of shred" players (ala Malmsteen) but there are definitely guys out there that are genuine phenomenal musicians that just prefer the "high octane" energy rock music provides as opposed to the more subtle energy and drive of swing.

    To Mr. B. If you want to listen to some genuinely musical shred, then check out Steve Vai's "For the Love of God". Very melodic and musical and then of course he builds it up to an all-out, eight finger tapping, shred-fest. That kind thing still isn't my bag a' chips but I can definitely appreciate it more than some of the other shred.
    Wow, we may have had the same exact experience...Joe Pass showed me that jazz could shred, only it's much more complex. Jason Becker does shred amazingly though, and so does Steve Vai, who attended Berklee and knows jazz.

    I don't like Mathew's Band though, so sorry...

  42. #41
    +1

  43. #42

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    Catch me sessions. Intense. Joe. steamin he is. But, it swings like f**k and is bouyant and effortless. Harmonically naughty, clean as a whistle, fat sound. Have a listen. Way beyond shred.

  44. #43
    the mighty lane

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Joe. steamin he is. But, it swings like f**k and is bouyant and effortless.
    And that's where it's at. They do have the chord solo thing in common, but for the most part Ed Bickert is the total opposite of Joe Pass's stlye... slow, and deliberate... but it "swings like f**k" so it's cool.

  46. #45
    who can deny their excitement the first time they nailed a rapid gambale style succession of arpeggios?

  47. #46

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    who was it said "music is like sex, — you don't start sex with an orgasm because you've nowhere else to go."

    just seemed like an apposite thought at this stage of the shredthread.

    oh, and sorry for the very bad paraphrase of the quote, my apologies to the originator.

  48. #47
    i think it works well, but real shred does exactly that, it builds up to an orgasm. an explosion....show me that in smooth jazz

  49. #48

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    it builds up to an orgasm. an explosion....show me that in smooth jazz
    I couldn't...............I never listen to it

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    i think it works well, but real shred does exactly that, it builds up to an orgasm. an explosion....show me that in smooth jazz
    that doesn't happen in smooth jazz. that's the point of smooth jazz. it goes good with box of wine and a dentist's office.

    in real jazz that happens all the time.

    mistreater, have you heard coltrane's "ascension" yet? if not, you need to.

  51. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    that doesn't happen in smooth jazz. that's the point of smooth jazz. it goes good with box of wine and a dentist's office.

    in real jazz that happens all the time.

    mistreater, have you heard coltrane's "ascension" yet? if not, you need to.
    coltrane is bebop...which sets clumped in with shred, i mean its technical mastery of their instrument right?

    i love him and all bop