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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    coltrane is bebop...which sets clumped in with shred, i mean its technical mastery of their instrument right?

    i love him and all bop


    Coltrane doesn't fall into bebop all the time. I'm a fan of his modal stuff too... particularly A Love Supreme. I'm usually not a modal guy but I do like Coltrane's stuff. Although you should check that stuff out if you haven't. CRAZY.
    Last edited by DMatthewsBand07; 08-03-2008 at 10:46 PM.

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  3. #52

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    I come from a strait up heavy metal and hardcore background, so I have been desperate to shred for along time. I can't do it yet. And every time almost every time i see shredding i go and scream at my self for not being able to do it and going "i wish i could shred" over and over again.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    coltrane is bebop...which sets clumped in with shred, i mean its technical mastery of their instrument right?

    i love him and all bop
    "ascension" is about as far from bop as it gets. seek it out. multiple "orgasms" (and that's probably enough of that metaphor, now, huh? )

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by JessJazzer
    I come from a strait up heavy metal and hardcore background, so I have been desperate to shred for along time.
    so i have to ask, because it seems there's a lot of folks on this board that come from that kind of background...jazz seems like such a left turn...is it the technicality that appeals to all the metal background players? or just looking for something completely different? metal and hardcore seem so tightly structured, while jazz is, well, jazzy.

    i came to jazz via the grateful dead, so it was the whole "improvise! improvise! improvise!" thing that hooked me.

  6. #55
    i came to jazz because of synyster gates funnily enough, it fascinated me how he could imply all of these interesting harmonies over powerchords then i found out he studied jazz it sealed my fate, iv always been into the academic side of music and knew that on my degree i would have to study ALOT of jazz which i looked foward to...Syn just made me do it sooner, i spent so much time studying end exploring and most importantly enjoying that i forgot why i started to learn it to be honest. i just enjoy playing different styles

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    well, there's a fine line between clever and stupid

    and bonus points to whoever names the shredder who said that.
    Nigel Tuffnell!

    I think that speed is simply an effect. I used to be a big shred fan...like BIG, like Rusty Cooley and Francesco Ferrari....but since I've dove into jazz, I've noticed that (in jazz), things like distortion and altered tones, chorus and speed...they're all effects. The essence of jazz guitar is well-placed ideas and a clean, dry guitar. Speed can build tension just as altered tones can, just as Scofield and his crazy chorus and slight distortion can create tension...they're all the same.
    smitty

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    so i have to ask, because it seems there's a lot of folks on this board that come from that kind of background...jazz seems like such a left turn...is it the technicality that appeals to all the metal background players? or just looking for something completely different? metal and hardcore seem so tightly structured, while jazz is, well, jazzy.

    i came to jazz via the grateful dead, so it was the whole "improvise! improvise! improvise!" thing that hooked me.
    I came to jazz after noticing that me, the former metalhead/shredhead was just way to egotistical, and people really hated me for it. I found that music wasn't a competition, but is beautiful. And another reasons is after seeing guys like Guthrie Govan, Greg Howe...they play jazz but shred (I didn't know what "fusion" was).
    So I got bored with tight metal arrangements, and frustrated with people thinking I was very close minded and just a stupid shredhead, and tired of just playing speed for speed. I wanted groove, soul, thought....music.
    So I got into Charlie Hunter, John Mayer, Scofield...I really got the groove thing going. I got into Andy Timmons, Richie Kotzen. My groove got better, my improv better. I became more creative and cleaner...and slightly slower. But that was necessary. It made me think about music. Along came Larry Carlton and Robben Ford. Name any other tasty players.
    Then I found Pat Martino doing "Sunny" and decided I wanted jazz. I got all the horn players. I started reading Harlem Renaiisance poetry. This all happened just this past year. I wanted to know what the hell those jazz cats were doing, and how they were doing it. Out the window went harmonic minor and phrygian dominant...in came simple dorian and the altered and diminished scales.
    And since early 2008 I've been immersed in jazz. I'm still not that great at it, but I'm such a completely different person because of it. More chilled out, more thoughtful, more humble. Jazz has really made me a better person and I'm thankful for it. I still listen to Jason Becker, Dream Theater, Nevermore, Into Eternity...and I want to play like Guthrie and Greg Howe, but I'm studying to be a good musician, all around, and jazz is my favorite vessel for this journey. I feel that it prepares me for any style. And it's just so much fun!!
    Long post over.
    smitty

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    i came to jazz via the grateful dead, so it was the whole "improvise! improvise! improvise!" thing that hooked me.
    I'm with you... I was a big Allman Bros, Grateful Dead guy. Jazz was sort of the natural progression of my musical taste. Our community is very small and their aren't a lot of opporunities for playing (and most of these opportunities are more of a rock/blues type thing). This makes the music scene extremely competitive. Yeah... you seriously wouldn't believe it... it's weird. For a while I was starting to get sucked into the "battle of the bands" mentality (for lack of a better term), now I just love the simple study and appreciation of music so much that all the other crap just went away. Similar to what smitty was saying, music isn't a competition anymore. Plain and simple. I don't know if that's typical, but jazz seems to have that effect on me. I've never found a kind of music where I can put an album on, sit down, and just listen to it. It calms me down, but it has that weird way of both relaxing and stimulating me at the same time. I don't know. I just love it.

  10. #59
    its good to hear alot of us have a background in it, shred taught me about technique, without what i call absolute technique you cant play ABSOLUTELY eveything that comes into your mind.

  11. #60

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    Yeah DMB, I'm the same way. I got tired of the competitiveness of rock. It's just all a popularity competition: who's faster? who's flashier? who bangs more girls? who can drink more? All of that falls under that, and I got tired of it.
    Chillin with a few jazzers is the greatest, whether we talk music or not. It just seems like I relate to jazzers the best--they're more down to earth. Of course all of this is a generality, but still fairly accurate.

    And I agree with Misstreater to some extent--I've said what you said before, anyway. You must have good technique to achieve what you want to achieve. You've got to be able to play what you hear, right?
    My only problem is that people don't always notice how little time they have to spend working on technique. I choose one legato and one staccato technique to work on every day for around 45 minutes. I maintain my technique as well as I did when I worked on all the techniques for an hour and a half a day.
    One needs to realize that whenever you're playing music--like, ever--you're "practicing" technique. "Technique" is the ability to play what you want to play, am I right? So if you're playing, you're "practicing" technique. So besides the true blue technique practice, I also choose a scale and learn that...say, the half/whole in the keys of C, E, and Ab, and I get inside and outside of that scale in those 3 keys. I learn everything there is to learn to be able to use the scale effectively in a musical context. By that time, my fingers are tired, so I'll probably work on the chords inside of those scales. Then I'll get a standard, sight read it, learn it, memorize it, know it; then I'll solo over it, trying to apply the scale I just worked on. So this entire time, my technique is being sharpened and honed. My "technique practice" is more of a really long warm-up.
    smitty

  12. #61

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    so, ok, Smitty............... when do you eat?

  13. #62
    i think thats a good practice regime, ur a full time musician?

    i also think that you can maintain a technique by doing it for ten minutes easily, but i bet the hours and hours of previous work helped!

    i like that regime alot actually, might give that a go

  14. #63
    im very surprised to see this thread get more replies than the blues thread, pleased too

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMisstreater
    i think thats a good practice regime, ur a full time musician?
    I think Smitty's in my boat. I'm the high school kid who loves music waaaayyyy more than school so anytime after 3:00 is practice time.

  16. #65
    same here guys, my practice is usually all technique orienatated though, workin with the metronome....

    smittys approach seems very practical

  17. #66

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    I spend a lot of time a songs and not very much on technique. I usually spend about an hour combined on reading through tunes and technique. A lot more on tunes.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    I think Smitty's in my boat. I'm the high school kid who loves music waaaayyyy more than school so anytime after 3:00 is practice time.
    Yessir. It's funny, we seem pretty similar. Both seniors in high school. Weird.
    But yeah, I've just noticed that I hate practicing to a strict regiment...like, for years all I've done is say "this for this amount of time every day" and I just got bored. So now I've got a few general categories that rely off of each other that I practice for a general amount of time per day. Because realistically, if I practice one main theme every day, I get a lot more done...like for example Bird is my theme, I'll probably practice alternate picking and hammer ons/pull offs for my technique, find a head and practice it, learn the chords, find some scales to use, practice those, solo over it. All in all, I get a lot done, so I feel accomplished once I'm finished.
    So yeah, after school, I generally teach guitar (my job) or mow a lawn (my other job) and then get home and eat/do homework. After that, it's all practice, which, depending on the amount of homework I've got, may mean that I'm practicing late into the night, which means that I'm a caffeine addict. And sometimes, even, I wake up in the morning and practice chords before scale, though that's pretty rare.
    Because I feel so accomplished, by the weekend, I just don't want to practice. So I may have a gig, and if not, I'll probably not touch a guitar the entire weekend. I'll sleep and hang out with friends and see my girlfriend. And if I do practice, it's probably piano or bass or something. And sometimes I even have a stretch of days where I'm just not interested in guitar, or, rarely, music. Like, when I drive, I drive without the radio. It's weird, but refreshing.
    I think that the most common problem with peoples' practice regiments and expectations of themselves is that they overlook their humanity. Practice to the point of insanity and a lack of social skills is stupid. Practice, to me, is just preparation for gigs and a career in music, once I reach that point in my life.
    smitty

    Oh by the way, DMB, I like your tunes on myspace. I'm sending you a friend request. You've got a great tone (regardless of the not-perfect quality) and you're a great all around player.
    My myspace is myspace.com/alexsmithproject.
    The first two songs, "Shadow of a Doubt" and "Redline" are more...meh...Andy Timmons/John Petrucci style ("Redline" is the exact same song structure as "Glasgow Kiss") so they aren't really the best examples of my playing for this site. And they're over a year old, so listening to them is such a blast to the past, because over this past year I've matured so much as a player. I really dislike those recordings, but hey, whatever.
    The last song is brand new, the solo to Greg Howe's "Crack It Way Open," which is my Berklee Audition song for the Guitar Sessions coming up in a couple weeks. I transcribed it and wrote out the score, and then a friend and I recorded it last night. It actually could've been a little bit better (there's some sloppy parts), but we were so tired and hungry by the end of the recording session that we just decided to stop where we were . It doesn't matter really anyway, because when I'm Berklee I'm going to use the track minus the lead guitar (as a backing track) and just play it over that live.
    I don't have any jazz recorded, so I'm feeling pretty sheepish...But rest assured, I'll get some up as soon as possible.
    Last edited by Smitty; 08-06-2008 at 04:56 PM. Reason: myspace stuff

  19. #68

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    Dude... This is getting creepy.

    I teach music at the local music store and have two extra summer jobs although it looks like right now I'm gonna get a second solid job for the school year. I too practice very late and very early because I have little time during the day. I too am a terrible caffeine addict. I've had three Laaaarge cups of coffee already today (I give up coffee every year for Lent... not pretty).


    I also went through your same practice evolution. For a while I would spend waaaaay too much time with a metronome everyday (a little is good but too much isn't) and guitar started to feel like a desk job to me. During soccer season this year I wasn't getting anything done so I scrapped technique and worked only on tunes and got a lot done. So now I just sort of set a goal for the week and work towards that. It turns out to be a lot of tunes and whatever technique I feel like will assist me with the tunes or artist of style I'm studying for the week.

    Thanks for the compliments on the playing... I think a friend of mine who drums for the school jazz band is coming over in the next couple days so I'll try to get some stuff up there with a drummer.

    I'm not gonna lie though.... the similarities are getting a bit strange.

  20. #69

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    don't worry fellas, you're just guitar players. that's how we are. i drink a pot of coffee a day, have three jobs (high school teacher, 20 guitar students a week and a weekly gig at the retirement home...and no, i'm not kidding about the last one) and practice late at night all summer because it's the only free time i have!

    as for metronomes--if you want to play jazz, throw it away and find a drummer. a metronome won't bust your balls if you don't swing.

  21. #70

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    Yes, but a drummer can't really accompany me at 3:00am can he?
    On a (very slightly) similar note, I've found that my favorite thing in the world is swung 16ths on a slow ballad. It just seems like it swings SO much harder.

    DMB, we gotta meet up someday brotha.
    smitty

  22. #71

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    Yeah man. I dig the 16ths. I can't make the eighths swing. I don't know if that's normal or if it comes with more playing but the eighth notes on ballads never seem to swing for me.

    And I guess a drummer could help you out at 3:00 am. He'd be my kinda drummer.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    Yeah man. I dig the 16ths. I can't make the eighths swing. I don't know if that's normal or if it comes with more playing but the eighth notes on ballads never seem to swing for me.

    And I guess a drummer could help you out at 3:00 am. He'd be my kinda drummer.
    Well, ballads--being ballads--necessitate slower playing, so 8th note runs (long ones, at least) don't exactly feel right. It just seems a bit too forced, I guess. Though, a solo--being a solo--needs a bit of interest too, so a rare 16th run is great to make things move. And jazz--being jazz--is swung so when 16ths are used at a slow tempo, their swing is exaggerated a bit, and it just feels like it swings SO hard. I love it. So groovy. I've been messin around with "Body and Soul" lately and that just works perfectly over it.
    smitty

  24. #73

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    Nice... I've been working on All of You. Cole Porter song. I like him.

  25. #74

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    Joe Pass is shred.

  26. #75

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    Shred? This is the machine next to the photocopier, right.
    I watched a dvd called G3 which had Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, and Mr Malguided...oops sorry, Malstreen or something. Anyway at the end of the latter's set, this goofy wanker smashed a Strat on the stage.
    When Hendricks did this it was original showmanship, also Hendricks could really play the guitar.
    When Ygnueeee Malbreath did it, it was a wank; this was the climax of his set, 20 minutes of very fast scales over no particular harmony, with the odd, ripped off classical line thrown in. All played very fast.

    Putting aside the fact that musical instruments are luxuries we are blessed with, does this tool have any idea of how many 14 year old kids are out there with twice his talent but no money for a decent instrument?

    This was like watching someone waste food.

    Finally, in disgust I removed the dvd, which will make a great drink coaster, and put on an Earl Hines & Coleman Hawkins DVD. Now, Hines could shred. Those piano keys practically glowed! This was recorded in the 50's I believe. Not only could he shred, but he had taste, discretion, creativity, melody, harmony, rhythm, and so on. Hawkins didn't play too fast, just beautifully.

    Joe Pass was no slouch either, and unlike mentalcase Malstrummer, understood harmony, music, taste, and displayed it in all his recordings.

    Don't recall him ever smashing a guitar either. But of course, Joe didn't need theatrics; he could play.

    That's my rant for the day
    Thankyou. Keep smiling.
    Harry

  27. #76

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    you raised a smile.

  28. #77

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    haha. And what a quality rant it was.

    Yeah, I got my first Tal Farlow album yesterday (Return of Tal Farlow: 1969) and that just totally dispelled any lingering subconcious belief in the shredders. That guy can freakin' gun it. Tastefully also. Really cool stuff.

    Yeah I always sort of wondered what happened to a musician having respect for his instrument. Hendrix and Townshend were inovators - I can live with that. When was the last time you saw Clapton smash The Black Strat, or B.B. King throw Lucille into his amplifier speaker... Joe Pass just sat on a stool in the middle of a stage and blew people away.

  29. #78

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    Malmsteen started out really great. If you listen to the original recording of "Far Beyond The Sun" for example, you can hear greatness. Unfortunately somewhere along the lines he got lost and he seems "Far Beyond Recovery" right now. Sad.

    Vai's great because he can create a vast range of different textures in his music. Satriani when you listen closely is heavily influenced by the blues and people like Jimmy Page or Hendrix.

    Pure shred just for the sake of shred like Rusty Cooley bores me to death after 5 minutes. It's impressive he can play all that, but it's just not very musically relevant. Even Dream Theater. Their first few albums were great because they had "songs". Now it's just one blowing vehicle after another.

    If shred is the mastery of ones instrument then it shouldn't just be about speed.

    On the jazz side, I don't know how poor Joe Pass got mixed up in this. To me the greatest prowess of Joe isn't his single note playing at all. It's all his stuff for solo guitar. Some of his greatest work to me are the albums he did with Ella Fitzgerald. He's just feeding her chords that are intricate and artsy, but inobtrusive enough so they don't get in the way of the singer/soloist. There's mastery of an instrument for you.

    Or Wes Montgomery. Just listen to the solo on "Unit 7" or have a look at the transcription and then realize that he just sat down one day and just improvised this solo. Far more impressive to me than running up and down scales at finger-blurring speeds.

  30. #79

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    Hats off to Harry (Guitaroscar) for putting it well. Reminds me of a song by John Hiatt:

    Perfectly Good Guitar (excerpted)

    Well he threw one down from the top of the stairs
    Beautiful women were standing everywhere
    They all got wet when he smashed that thing
    But off in the dark you could hear somebody sing

    Oh it breaks my heart to see those stars
    Smashing a perfectly good guitar
    I don't know who they think they are
    Smashing a perfectly good guitar

    There out to be a law with no bail
    Smash a guitar and you go to jail
    With no chance for early parole
    You don't get out till you get some soul

    Oh it breaks my heart to see those stars
    Smashing a perfectly good guitar
    I don't know who they think they are
    Smashing a perfectly good guitar

    (Not holding my breath waiting on Malmstein to cover this one.)

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarsmurf
    On the jazz side, I don't know how poor Joe Pass got mixed up in this. To me the greatest prowess of Joe isn't his single note playing at all. It's all his stuff for solo guitar. Some of his greatest work to me are the albums he did with Ella Fitzgerald. He's just feeding her chords that are intricate and artsy, but inobtrusive enough so they don't get in the way of the singer/soloist. There's mastery of an instrument for you.
    That's the stuff I personally related to shred. Not only does he beautiful play the chord-melodies, but makes it original and adds solos and little "shred" moments to it.

  32. #81

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    pass was guilty often, in my opinion, of playing WAY too many notes--seemingly especially when he played with niels henning orsted peterson. i don't know what it was, but those cats brought out the worst in each other, as far as i'm concerned.

    joe was a hell of a technician, which could qualify him as "shred," but he had the capacity to be a great, soulful, even subdued player too--as mentioned before, ella really brought out the best in him--at least in this aspect.

    i'm not a fan of shred, but i get it, and i respect that "master your instrument" mentality. i think some boppers fall closer to the shred thing (y'know, bird and diz, bud, etc.) and it works in that context. it works well.

    my favorite joe on record is on johnny griffin's grab this. tasty, and funky as hell.

  33. #82

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    I have always equated shred with the exceptionally fast playing of jillions of notes, thus 'shredding the fretboard'. It can be with purpose (a la Paganini.. even though he was a violinist), or without purpose (not focusing on melody or content as much as playing really fast because you can).

    I have always considered Al Di Meiola a jazz 'shredder' who plays with a lot of purpose -- Elegant Gypsy anyone?

    I am hesitant to say Joe Pass was a shredder, because although he could play fast it was not the crux of his playing.

  34. #83

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    I agree, but he could, if he wanted to, just shred up a storm.

  35. #84
    I totally agree with Derek. I think Dragonforce is a disgrace to the whole shred scene. Yes, they are incredibly fast, faster than anyone else but does their speedy music make any sense? Moreover, I have to say that these guys just can't produce the same skills live. They sounded incredibly off, out of tune and messy and all they have done so far is fooling people into thinking, " O speed is everything!"

    I shall take something to recommend a guitarist that I feel is really underrated. He is Steve Lukather of Toto. He is the person who can produce the most memorable and delightful solos and combined them with blistering speed (and he is incredibly fast too) at essential moments. I like parts of his solos when he goes diatonically upwards in thirds or other intervals instead of how most shredders would just run up the scale normally.

  36. #85

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    I think "shred" is stupid. I don't look at music that way and if I did than I would be fooling myself. Music is about emotion and open communication, not how many notes it takes to fill a meausre. That kind of thinking is just ego-driven more than anything.

    Don't get me wrong, I used to be into playing fast when I was 11 years old. The older you get, the more you realize that music isn't a competition. It's about realizing the true inner beauty and honesty of yourself and trying to get that across in a way that's not egotistical or that has to do with self-gratification.

    I can't tell you how many guitarists I've talked to that are like "Man, look what I can do. Am I fast or what?" I mean seriously so what? It doesn't prove anything. What matters is how you play those notes and how they help the composition.

    That's my two cents.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravyTrain
    I have always equated shred with the exceptionally fast playing of jillions of notes, thus 'shredding the fretboard'. It can be with purpose (a la Paganini.. even though he was a violinist), or without purpose (not focusing on melody or content as much as playing really fast because you can).

    I have always considered Al Di Meiola a jazz 'shredder' who plays with a lot of purpose -- Elegant Gypsy anyone?

    I am hesitant to say Joe Pass was a shredder, because although he could play fast it was not the crux of his playing.

    But as Al Di Meola's career progressed, he became less concerned with shredding and put more effort into making interesting music: "The Infinite Desire" or "The Grande Passion" anyone?

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisellfan19
    I think "shred" is stupid. I don't look at music that way and if I did than I would be fooling myself. Music is about emotion and open communication, not how many notes it takes to fill a meausre. That kind of thinking is just ego-driven more than anything.

    I'm not quite sure if I agree with you or not so I'll just lay my opinion out there and see if they line up. I don't think stupid is a good word to describe shred. I think it's a form of expression.... but I think it's a very one dimensional form of expression. All the greats were capable of "shred-like" speed. For example: on Dave Brubeck Quartet's "Jazz at Oberlin" Paul Desmond (one of the least-shred guys ever to pick up any instrument) busts out a four measure line of eighth note triplets in a version of How High the Moon that's booking at about 240 bpm. That's flat out sick. However, the difference is that the "shredders" seem to use their technique as a crutch while the greats use their mind-boggling technique as part of a bigger picture. The technique is more of a tool. I equate shredding (and I'm extending the tool metaphor here) to trying to build a house with nothing but a screwdriver. The guys that really know what their doing always keep a screwdriver at the ready but they know it's ridiculous to bring nothing else to the worksite.

    I like metaphors.


    Good night.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    I'm not quite sure if I agree with you or not so I'll just lay my opinion out there and see if they line up. I don't think stupid is a good word to describe shred. I think it's a form of expression.... but I think it's a very one dimensional form of expression. All the greats were capable of "shred-like" speed. For example: on Dave Brubeck Quartet's "Jazz at Oberlin" Paul Desmond (one of the least-shred guys ever to pick up any instrument) busts out a four measure line of eighth note triplets in a version of How High the Moon that's booking at about 240 bpm. That's flat out sick. However, the difference is that the "shredders" seem to use their technique as a crutch while the greats use their mind-boggling technique as part of a bigger picture. The technique is more of a tool. I equate shredding (and I'm extending the tool metaphor here) to trying to build a house with nothing but a screwdriver. The guys that really know what their doing always keep a screwdriver at the ready but they know it's ridiculous to bring nothing else to the worksite.

    I like metaphors.


    Good night.

    Playing fast DOES NOT impress me, DMatthewsBand07. What DOES impress me is a musician who can be musical and lyrical. I love Oscar Peterson, but you know what I love most about him? It wasn't how fast he was, it was the heart he heart behind everything that made what he played sound appealing. Oscar could certainly make jaws drop with his flawless technique, but it was the passion and fire he had that made him one of the greats.

    Bill Evans was an incredibly fast pianist when it was time to play fast, but it was how he played the notes and chords that made him sound different. Everything he touched, he put his soul into it and you could hear it.

    I think if you're listening to music just to hear some guy rip lick after than lick, then you're missing the big picture, which is: music = heart and soul.

  40. #89

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    DMathewsBand & Frisellfan

    You're both in agreement here (and I agree with both of your views on shred), but, FFan, why are you so aggressively responding to something DM never said? If you're being sarcastic, don't bother, it rarely works on a forum such as this. If you're not being sarcastic, then just chill out a bit. Actually, having read your comments over the past year, most of your arguments are because you appear to read things in other people's posts that are not there.

    DMBand - your analogy with house building is pretty good, Frisellfan could be the Building Regulations Inspector, finding faults where none exist.

    love & peace

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisellfan19
    I think if you're listening to music just to hear some guy rip lick after than lick, then you're missing the big picture, which is: music = heart and soul.
    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    However, the difference is that the "shredders" seem to use their technique as a crutch while the greats use their mind-boggling technique as part of a bigger picture.
    I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement here. I disagreed with some small parts of your post, but I think we're all good on the big picture.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by musicalbodger
    DMathewsBand & Frisellfan

    You're both in agreement here (and I agree with both of your views on shred), but, FFan, why are you so aggressively responding to something DM never said? If you're being sarcastic, don't bother, it rarely works on a forum such as this. If you're not being sarcastic, then just chill out a bit. Actually, having read your comments over the past year, most of your arguments are because you appear to read things in other people's posts that are not there.

    DMBand - your analogy with house building is pretty good, Frisellfan could be the Building Regulations Inspector, finding faults where none exist.

    love & peace

    No, I'm merely reading "between the lines." I'm not going to "chill out a bit." You may not like what I say or how I say it, musicalbodger, but I'm not aruging with anyone. I'm just giving my opinion. Take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me, but if you have to tell somebody to "chill out a bit," then the only one who needs to is you, because you're the one who said it in the first place. So to you: chill out a bit and let me and DMatthewsBand, talk.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement here. I disagreed with some small parts of your post, but I think we're all good on the big picture.

    DMatthewsBand07, I have been playing the guitar for almost 18 years. You know what I've learned in those 18 years of playing guitar? Every other guitarists has a different outlook than I do. Does that make me better? No. Does that make me inferior? Of course not, we are two different people with two different opinions. That's it. My opinion isn't any better than yours.

    The guy who told me to "chill out a bit" takes himself too seriously. He doesn't understand that it's okay for people to have disagreements. I tell people how I feel and I compromise those feelings for anything.

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisellfan19
    No, I'm merely reading "between the lines."
    For future reference... this is the internet so I know that sarcasm is difficult to pick up, so I make a habit of saying exactly what I mean in a post. If you think that I have implied something against you or anyone else "between the lines" of one of my posts then don't sweat it because it wasn't intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by frisellfan19
    The guy who told me to "chill out a bit" takes himself too seriously. He doesn't understand that it's okay for people to have disagreements. I tell people how I feel and I compromise those feelings for anything.
    He just thought you were getting a little too heated. Maybe you weren't... but, hey - it's okay for people to have disagreements.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbeantheconqueror
    I shall take something to recommend a guitarist that I feel is really underrated. He is Steve Lukather of Toto. He is the person who can produce the most memorable and delightful solos and combined them with blistering speed (and he is incredibly fast too) at essential moments. I like parts of his solos when he goes diatonically upwards in thirds or other intervals instead of how most shredders would just run up the scale normally.
    I like that you brought that up, because something that's occasionally overlooked is that speed and technique are not always one and the same. It takes a fairly creative person to think up ideas that are truly ground-breaking in a technical sense. That's sort of where I think the dividing line between the Dragonforce guys and guys like Birelli Lagrene and some of the more musical of the shredders is drawn. Granted, I'm not much of a Birelli Lagrene fan, but he does have some genuinely musical ideas and extremely challenging ideas that are played at lightning speeds. Dragonforce and other groups in that vein just play simple (non) ideas (like what you said about running straight up and down arpeggios and scales) but they play them fast. I think it takes a very creative person to think up ideas that are so stunningly difficult and then a very well practiced person to play them that fast. In the case of Dragonforce and the like, a lack of creativity manifests itself in fairly dull ideas that are only interesting because of their incredible speed. That gets old fast.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    I like that you brought that up, because something that's occasionally overlooked is that speed and technique are not always one and the same. It takes a fairly creative person to think up ideas that are truly ground-breaking in a technical sense. That's sort of where I think the dividing line between the Dragonforce guys and guys like Birelli Lagrene and some of the more musical of the shredders is drawn. Granted, I'm not much of a Birelli Lagrene fan, but he does have some genuinely musical ideas and extremely challenging ideas that are played at lightning speeds. Dragonforce and other groups in that vein just play simple (non) ideas (like what you said about running straight up and down arpeggios and scales) but they play them fast. I think it takes a very creative person to think up ideas that are so stunningly difficult and then a very well practiced person to play them that fast. In the case of Dragonforce and the like, a lack of creativity manifests itself in fairly dull ideas that are only interesting because of their incredible speed. That gets old fast.



    The most musical "shredder" I've ever heard was Shawn Lane (1963-2003). His best work was with jazz/fusion bassist Jonas Hellborg and drummer Jeff Sipe. He was timed to be the fastest guitarist of all time, but he could play so lyrically, which is very rare with those types of guys. I had a chance to meet him one time, but for some reason I couldn't do it. Super nice guy and an amazing musician.

  47. #96

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    I don't really like to listen to speed guitar. When I think of great electric guitarists I think of Pink Floyd, or maybe Mick Ronson.

    Sailor

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by frisellfan19
    The most musical "shredder" I've ever heard was Shawn Lane (1963-2003). His best work was with jazz/fusion bassist Jonas Hellborg and drummer Jeff Sipe. He was timed to be the fastest guitarist of all time, but he could play so lyrically, which is very rare with those types of guys. I had a chance to meet him one time, but for some reason I couldn't do it. Super nice guy and an amazing musician.
    very cool stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor
    I don't really like to listen to speed guitar. When I think of great electric guitarists I think of Pink Floyd, or maybe Mick Ronson.

    Sailor
    ahhh. David Gilmour is the anti-shred. Plays only the notes that are absolutely necessary. Nothing more.

  49. #98

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    Shawn Lane! The Master. What a wonderful musician. Yes, he could shred like a madman, but his music very rarely showcased it and was simply beautiful. That's really the only word to describe it. Beautiful. He is greatly missed.
    Smitty

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty
    Shawn Lane! The Master. What a wonderful musician. Yes, he could shred like a madman, but his music very rarely showcased it and was simply beautiful. That's really the only word to describe it. Beautiful. He is greatly missed.
    Smitty
    I knew him and he was so incredibly intelligent. He read more books than he practiced if that tells you anything.

  51. #100
    CC323 Guest
    Yeah. What's really impressive to me is the context of shawn lane. On youtube there's a video of him doing a wanky rock solo, but he's 16 and it's 1979, which is before everyone else but EVH. While I really enjoy his Powers of Ten and Tritone Fascination albums quite a bit, I do agree that the stuff with Hellborg was pretty damned incredible. BTW, have you heard of Guthrie Govan? He's one of my favorites.