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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    no it doesnt sound like that. The most succesful operettas has been:

    Die Fledermaus and then The Merry Widow.
    Golden era operetta: till the death of Johann Strauss in 1899 or 98.. Strauss, Suppe, Millocker
    Silver Era: Lehar, Kalman. Most iconic: The MERRY Widow. But you have graffin mariza. an The Opera Ball by Heuberger. a really great one

    I think most important operettas would vbe: Die fledermaus (strauss), a night in venice (strauss), bocaccio (suppe), Indigo (strauss) The gypsy baron (strauss) The merry widow.

    its hard to me to find a fully great operetta from the beginning to the end. sometimes so so operettas has some great music but then low quality too..

    It would be easier if I just make a selection of the greatest moments of each operetta instead of the full work.

    source: Johann Strauss and Vienna. Cambridge Press

    THtas the source to base my comment
    Franz von Suppè please. Accent grave. Suppe means soup in German.

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  3. #27
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  4. #28

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    [QUOTE=JimmyDunlop;1362573] But this Aria I am sharing , I would place it in my top 5 of the most impressive compositions I ever heard for sure. QUOTE]

    Thank you for posting this aria. I am among those who hadn't heard it before. Quite beautiful interpretation by the great Elizabeth Schwarzkopf.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    [...] oscar strauss not a relevant composer. Would be Strauss ,Lehar, Von SUppe, Kalman, Heuberger, Millocker .
    On the contrary – Oscar Straus (apparently he ommitted the final "s" so as not to be thought related to the other Strausses) composed two dozen operettas. Among them was The Chocolate Soldier, which was based on G. B. Shaw's play Arms and the Man. It was poplular for a time, and is memorable, if for no other reason that Shaw hated it so much he would never allow another musical theatre piece based on his work in his lifetime (My Fair Lady was produced after he died). It is still occasionally performed.

    "My Hero" from The Chocolate Soldier is an aria often included in soprano repertoire.


  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Franz von Suppè please. Accent grave. Suppe means soup in German.
    It should actually be l'accent aigu, to be precise – Suppé.

    That makes me the unreasonably-pedantic champ of the day.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    On the contrary – Oscar Straus (apparently he ommitted the final "s" so as not to be thought related to the other Strausses) composed two dozen operettas. Among them was The Chocolate Soldier, which was based on G. B. Shaw's play Arms and the Man. It was poplular for a time, and is memorable, if for no other reason that Shaw hated it so much he would never allow another musical theatre piece based on his work in his lifetime (My Fair Lady was produced after he died). It is still occasionally performed.

    "My Hero" from The Chocolate Soldier is an aria often included in soprano repertoire.

    According to the sources I have he is not one of the main operetta composers and also he didnt call my attention too much. I prefer way more other composers from the genre. Little mention on him in the book Strauss and Vienna, that studies Viennese opereta.
    According to this book. Operetta started its decline in the XX century after the death of Johann strauss
    So obviously the most important period is 1870-1898. Just 30 years

    After that operetta still existed but with less demand and inmportance, with the exception of the merry widow of course.
    Operetta is strongly based on popular marches, polkas and waltzes. is basically a mix of waltzes, polkas and marches that are sung.
    This dance music entered in decadence about 1910. or even less. I can understand why the most important operetta composers are from the XIX century. And thats why oscar is not really mentioned as one of the main ones. Also from all of the composers of the genre, he is the one that didnt call my attention. Its a very weak genre. Master pieces are exceptions to the rule. Was a main stream genre. Actually is not even classical music. Operetta is popular music( 8some how like opera ) The poiint is that people from that period (before 1920) had better ears adn taste than modern people.
    So anybody could understand this music that now looks sophisticated and regarded as classical. But in its time it was seen as dance music, It was the pop of its time.
    I really love operetta. But I have to admitt is uite a weak genre. we know only maybe 1% of the works,
    Last edited by JimmyDunlop; 09-29-2024 at 06:48 PM.

  8. #32
    [QUOTE=Irishmuso;1362621]
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    But this Aria I am sharing , I would place it in my top 5 of the most impressive compositions I ever heard for sure. QUOTE]

    Thank you for posting this aria. I am among those who hadn't heard it before. Quite beautiful interpretation by the great Elizabeth Schwarzkopf.
    thats a truly master piece. a musical miracle, hard to explain. also that singer was something else. a pleasure to listen to her
    Last edited by JimmyDunlop; 09-29-2024 at 06:37 PM.

  9. #33
    Anybody, from the poorest workers to the emperor met in the same place to watch not only operettas but operas. Today that would be impossible. Not only today but since 1920. Peoples taste entered in decadence.
    Last edited by JimmyDunlop; 09-29-2024 at 06:51 PM.

  10. #34

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    [QUOTE=Irishmuso;1362621]
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    But this Aria I am sharing , I would place it in my top 5 of the most impressive compositions I ever heard for sure. QUOTE]

    Thank you for posting this aria. I am among those who hadn't heard it before. Quite beautiful interpretation by the great Elizabeth Schwarzkopf.
    Elisabeth.

    Call me pedantic, but I do not like personal names to be spelled wrong.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    It should actually be l'accent aigu, to be precise – Suppé.

    That makes me the unreasonably-pedantic champ of the day.
    Although I would have loved to leave that medal to you -- I relate to the German Wikipedia (which relates to the Duden, the German standard dictionary for spelling and grammar among other things) and it says that as well the spelling Suppe (no accent) as well as Suppé (aigu) are wrong.

    I put the name w/o accent into the search engine of the Austrian National Library (w/o accent) and started to look at the early editions of his works that came up and they all have his name printed with aigu. They probably thought he was of French origin. There are e.g. many family names in Germany of Huguenot that are still written with (all three French) accents.

    From what I remember listening to Bayern 4 radio (classical music program of Bavarian public broadcast, now BR Klassik) as a kid they would always pronounce his name as if there was an aigu and not with the stress on a final schwa that is apparently correct.

    TBH w/o having looked that up I would have written it with aigu as well.

    EDIT: Ukena, it seems like you had found that out already as well and deleted your comment. I'll leave mine with your quote for completeness in our excursion into the music history of 19th century Austria.

    EDIT 2: My pedantry literally paid in my proof-reader days in another life.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    On the contrary – Oscar Straus (apparently he ommitted the final "s" so as not to be thought related to the other Strausses) composed two dozen operettas. Among them was The Chocolate Soldier, which was based on G. B. Shaw's play Arms and the Man. It was poplular for a time, and is memorable, if for no other reason that Shaw hated it so much he would never allow another musical theatre piece based on his work in his lifetime (My Fair Lady was produced after he died). It is still occasionally performed.

    "My Hero" from The Chocolate Soldier is an aria often included in soprano repertoire.

    As someone had brought up the Third Reich/Nazi theme in a very superficial (and uneducated) way -- something that always annoys me, I like to be pedantic regarding history -- there is something that strikes me very interesting and a fact I had absolutely not been aware of.

    Not only Léhar was hailed by the Nazis but also the elder Johann Strauss and his sons -- ignoring the fact that the latter were assimilated Jews!!! *)

    *) Meaning they had abandoned the religion. Which would not make them less Jewish in the eyes of the Nazi ideology that was built on "race" -- and the Zionist one as well BTW.

    Oscar Straus, son of a Jewish banker, managed to escape to Hollywood, but his son Leo was murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp ...

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    As someone had brought up the Third Reich/Nazi theme in a very superficial (and uneducated) way -- something that always annoys me, I like to be pedantic regarding history -- there is something that strikes me very interesting and a fact I had absolutely not been aware of.

    Not only Léhar was hailed by the Nazis but also the elder Johann Strauss and his sons -- ignoring the fact that the latter were assimilated Jews!!! *)

    *) Meaning they had abandoned the religion. Which would not make them less Jewish in the eyes of the Nazi ideology that was built on "race" -- and the Zionist one as well BTW.

    Oscar Straus, son of a Jewish banker, managed to escape to Hollywood, but his son Leo was murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp ...
    The strauss were not jews. They grew in a catholic environment. The grandfather of Johann II was. But he converted to catolicism. You said that the sons abandoned the religión.

    According to the nazis laws that still makes them jews. But not for the common sense or for normal people.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    The strauss were not jews. They grew in a catholic environment. The grandfather of Johann II was. But he converted to catolicism. You said that the sons abandoned the religión.

    According to the nazis laws that still makes them jews. [...]
    That's exactly what I said.

    I know that in the orthodox religious sense Jewishness is inherited from the mother's side.

    But I also grew up with Shoa survivors that were like family members. Three of them were assimilated. Two were Jewish in the religious sense. They were like grand aunts to me and (something I only realized later) one was like a grandmother to me and my siblings after her best friend from 20ies Berlin [sic], my mother's mother, widow of a very high ranking Nazi had committed suicide. She was a protestant Christian originally, had to emigrate nonetheless and became Catholic later because of her sister who survived in Bavaria as a Catholic nun. One survived in Hamburg as "Half-Jew" protestant Christian. **) The others had to emigrate. No matter if their religion was Jewish or Christian.

    *) I know reconciliation is possible!!!

    **) Was it easier for Jews in Hamburg? Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, also "Half-Jewish", was even an officer in WW2. But historian Moshe Zimmermann's parents had to emigrate from Hamburg.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    [...] But not for the common sense or for normal people.
    I pointed to something else in a sidenote. A descendant of the waltz king family could go to Israel today and have an Israeli passport tomorrow. Descent counts in the "Jewish [sic] state" and not the religion. I leave it up to you what to think of it as a "normal guy with common sense".

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    The story of Cabaret takes place 1929/30. The rise to power of the NSDAP was January 30th, 1933. In the 1920ies in Berlin there were many Jewish pop music composers.

    History test failed, that'll be an F.
    That's fine. I wasn't going for the test, but if you feel like grading knock yourself out. And this info is for what? Have you watched the movie? It captures the atmosphere before the NSDAP came to power. But thanks for the info, your Wikipedia game is strong!

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's fine. I wasn't going for the test, but if you feel like grading knock yourself out. And this info is for what? Have you watched the movie? It captures the atmosphere before the NSDAP came to power. But thanks for the info, your Wikipedia game is strong!
    You exposed a lack of knowledge and I reacted. That's all. And I was pissed by a superficial look at history. At least the way you expressed it made it look as such.

    I do not judge people by their education. My father always said that the heart is more important than facts knowledge. I have taken that to heart. Many of my ancestors were "big bourgeoisie." My so to speak Jewish "grandmother" I mentioned above was an academic. But many of my parents friends were craftsmen decending from farmers. One of my grand-grand-grandfathers was the son of a swineherd. But I will not hesitate to correct someone if I have the feeling that his facts are not correct.

    I have not watched the movie. I have worked as a stagehand for musicals, but I am not a fan of musicals. If there are good songs I prefer them in versions by jazz singers and musicians. But I roughly know the story. And that music in those cabarets was very often composed by Jewish composers as I have stated before. Joseph Goebbels would have called it "entartet" (degenerate). (Disclaimer: I do not share any of Goebbels opinions.)

    One question remains: Can you trust a printed encyclopedia more than a open-source one where information might be changed in the next second? Or a history book? I like printed books, grew up between hundreds of them. But everyone has a bias. (Me included of course. I only try to keep my mind open and my bias might be changed significantly by a new, formerly unknown bit of information.)

    EDIT: I decided that will listen to the songs from the Cabaret movie. I am interested in how I will like Minelli's singing. I listen to her mother's versions of GASB tunes very often in order to learn those tunes by rote.
    Last edited by Bop Head; 09-29-2024 at 10:55 PM.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    You exposed a lack of knowledge and I reacted. That's all. And I was pissed by a superficial look at history. At least the way you expressed it made it look as such.

    I do not judge people by their education. My father always said that the heart is more important than facts knowledge. I have taken that to heart. Many of my ancestors were "big bourgeoisie." My so to speak Jewish "grandmother" I mentioned above was an academic. But many of my parents friends were craftsmen decending from farmers. One of my grand-grand-grandfathers was the son of a swineherd. But I will not hesitate to correct someone if I have the feeling that his facts are not correct.

    I have not watched the movie. I have worked as a stagehand for musicals, but I am not a fan of musicals. If there are good songs I prefer them in versions by jazz singers and musicians. But I roughly know the story. And that music in those cabarets was very often composed by Jewish composers as I have stated before. Joseph Goebbels would have called it "entartet" (degenerate). (Disclaimer: I do not share any of Goebbels opinions.)

    One question remains: Can you trust a printed encyclopedia more than a open-source one where information might be changed in the next second? Or a history book? I like printed books, grew up between hundreds of them. But everyone has a bias. (Me included of course. I only try to keep my mind open and my bias might be changed significantly by a new, formerly unknown bit of information.)

    EDIT: I decided that will listen to the songs from the Cabaret movie. I am interested in how I will like Minelli's singing. I listen to her mother's versions of GASB tunes very often in order to learn those tunes by rote.
    How old are you?
    Do u have YouTube Channel? Or something to check your work with music or guitar?

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    You exposed a lack of knowledge and I reacted. That's all. And I was pissed by a superficial look at history. At least the way you expressed it made it look as such.

    I do not judge people by their education. My father always said that the heart is more important than facts knowledge. I have taken that to heart. Many of my ancestors were "big bourgeoisie." My so to speak Jewish "grandmother" I mentioned above was an academic. But many of my parents friends were craftsmen decending from farmers. One of my grand-grand-grandfathers was the son of a swineherd. But I will not hesitate to correct someone if I have the feeling that his facts are not correct.

    I have not watched the movie. I have worked as a stagehand for musicals, but I am not a fan of musicals. If there are good songs I prefer them in versions by jazz singers and musicians. But I roughly know the story. And that music in those cabarets was very often composed by Jewish composers as I have stated before. Joseph Goebbels would have called it "entartet" (degenerate). (Disclaimer: I do not share any of Goebbels opinions.)

    One question remains: Can you trust a printed encyclopedia more than a open-source one where information might be changed in the next second? Or a history book? I like printed books, grew up between hundreds of them. But everyone has a bias. (Me included of course. I only try to keep my mind open and my bias might be changed significantly by a new, formerly unknown bit of information.)

    EDIT: I decided that will listen to the songs from the Cabaret movie. I am interested in how I will like Minelli's singing. I listen to her mother's versions of GASB tunes very often in order to learn those tunes by rote.
    If you didn't watch the movie, how can you judge my remark? I stand by it, the first tune in this thread reminded me of Cabaret, it's not good or bad, that's how I've heard it. Written in 1905, ok, noted, but it doesn't change my first impression.

    I do have a lack of knowledge of operettas genre, like I said, it wasn't covered in the class, and from what I hear in this thread, well I thank my professor focusing on the likes of Schoenberg instead. No offense to the OP...

    History wise I've red plenty interesting books on WWII and The Third Reich etc. Just so you know, I don't really need history lessons

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
    How old are you?
    Do u have YouTube Channel? Or something to check your work with music or guitar?
    I was born in 1973.

    I will post recordings soon.

    Meanwhile I refer you to this post.

    Embraceable You - second chord in progression


    EDIT: Link is not working. Go to post #140 in that thread. You can find more from that band on Spotify. That is where I am coming from.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I thank my professor focusing on the likes of Schoenberg instead.


    Just parking this here... Arnie liked his light music...

  21. #45

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    [QUOTE=Bop Head;1362661]
    Quote Originally Posted by Irishmuso

    Elisabeth.

    Call me pedantic, but I do not like personal names to be spelled wrong.
    Not at all pedantic. Dame Elisabeth deserves to have her name spelled correctly. A fascinating woman. When asked to choose 8 recordings as a guest on Desert Island discs, she chose seven of her own. Quite right too.

  22. #46

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    I have a great Bossa Nova song written by guitarist Romero Lubambo. Song for Kaya.



    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 10-07-2024 at 05:24 PM.