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  1. #1

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    I asked this question somewhere else before I saw that this thread deals specifically with the Free jazz Guitar Lessons, so I though it'd be better to move here

    This is what I am confused about:

    "We'll skip some more notes and stack 3 thirds on top of the 7th note of the C major scale :

    B D F A 1 b3 b5 b7

    The result is a B half diminished chord or Bm7b5. From B to D is a minor third, from D to F is a minor third and from F to A is a major third : every half diminished 7 chord has this structure.
    The chord formula for half diminished 7 chords is : 1 b3 b5 b7 "

    I dont understand why from F-A there are 6 frets and you call it major third and yet it is a 'b7'
    I am sure this is semantics wbut it has thrown me because I thought i was understanding that 4 frets mean a minor and 5 diminished and therefore 6 is MAJOR

    Why am I not understanding this right?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    In this notation:

    1 b3 b5 b7

    the b3 and b5 and b7 are in relation to the root. I would use the notation: major or minor 3rd; diminished/perfect/augmented 5th; major or minor 7th, but there you go.

    In this example, B to D is the interval of a minor third (b3), B to F is a diminished 5th (b5) and B to A is a minor seventh (b7). Clear as mud?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    In this notation:

    1 b3 b5 b7

    the b3 and b5 and b7 are in relation to the root. I would use the notation: major or minor 3rd; diminished/perfect/augmented 5th; major or minor 7th, but there you go.

    In this example, B to D is the interval of a minor third (b3), B to F is a diminished 5th (b5) and B to A is a minor seventh (b7). Clear as mud?
    Lol....I am not sure.

  5. #4

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    As BDLH said, the 1 b3 b5 b7 is in relation to the root. Maybe thinking in terms of fret steps is not so practical. What works for me is grouping intervals in terms of its numbers: 2,3,6, and 7 are Major intervals and if you lower them by one half step they become Minors. The 4 and 5 are perfect intervals, if you lower them by one half step they become diminished but if you raise them by one half step they become augmented. Analyzing Bm7b5, the notes are B D F A. But these notes are taken from the B major scale and they were originally B D# F# A# so you can see that the major 3 (D#) was lowered a half step and became a minor 3 (D), the perfect 5 (F#) was lowered a half step and became a diminished 5 (F) also the major 7 (A#) became a minor by lowering it a half step (A). Hope this helps!

  6. #5
    Yes, that is REALLY getting to me I will study more into what you have said here. I was thinking that maybe the fret count wasn't obviously doing it for me, and this makes far more sense!! Thanks so much
    But also others--your explanations are cool too---dont get jealous...lol

  7. #6
    What does this mean

    "The first step is memorizing the chords and chord tones of the C major scale and the chord formula's:

    Cmaj7 C E G B Dm7 D F A C Em7 E G B D Fmaj7 F A C E G7 G B D F Am7 A C E G Bm7b5 B D F A

    You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C major without thinking."

    How does one go about doing this? Can you give me examples?

    Picture the chord types? I take this to mean to know their patterns all over neck? So I would finger these chords up and down neck and remember them?

    And their sound?

    But when does it happen that you dont have to think about this. HOW do you get there. Please give me some practice tips to get into this?

  8. #7

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    The only time you're not thinking is when you are in a coma or are dead. Wait, scratch the coma.

    I think whoever wrote that was try to saying you shouldn't have to stop and think: "Okay, the 3th note in the Eb major scale is Gb, no G! And the chord is a G7th, no G minor seventh. Its notes are G, um, Bb, um Db, no D and uh, uh F. If I want to play that chord in first inversion that means the, um G, A, Bb, the Bb is in the bass, so I can play it on the 5th, no 6th string at fret (picks up guitar)... thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump ... fret 6! Now, ah, the other notes....

    I think you get the idea.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    The only time you're not thinking is when you are in a coma or are dead. Wait, scratch the coma.

    I think whoever wrote that was try to saying you shouldn't have to stop and think: "Okay, the 3th note in the Eb major scale is Gb, no G! And the chord is a G7th, no G minor seventh. Its notes are G, um, Bb, um Db, no D and uh, uh F. If I want to play that chord in first inversion that means the, um G, A, Bb, the Bb is in the bass, so I can play it on the 5th, no 6th string at fret (picks up guitar)... thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump ... fret 6! Now, ah, the other notes....

    I think you get the idea.
    haha yeah ). THATS what i do now! So in order then to get to not that what did/do you do?

  10. #9

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    I don't know of any shortcuts. Mindful comping? maybe someone can suggest some books or exercises, but to me, it's knowing what the chords you play are doing rather than just going though the motions, literally.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I don't know of any shortcuts. Mindful comping? maybe someone can suggest some books or exercises, but to me, it's knowing what the chords you play are doing rather than just going though the motions, literally.
    Its not really shortcuts I am after, but more so effective practice--though I know we are all different.

    So you mean that you rather focus on the interelation of chords? Rather than 'where chords are' kind of thing?
    I am just curious what you would say was going through the motions?
    I have been staring for example at Cmajor7 for about ...2 years, well seems that, and wondering how to appraoch getting to feel it---do I, look at all its positions on the neck? and repetitively do that, fingering them, and then same with each chord.....or?
    What clicks for you?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixzer
    So you mean that you rather focus on the interelation of chords? Rather than 'where chords are' kind of thing?
    I am just curious what you would say was going through the motions?
    I have been staring for example at Cmajor7 for about ...2 years, well seems that, and wondering how to appraoch getting to feel it---do I, look at all its positions on the neck? and repetitively do that, fingering them, and then same with each chord.....or?
    What clicks for you?
    By going through the motions I meant rote memorization. If you play the same progression the same way every time.

    For each chord, say a dominant seventh, you should be able to play it in four inversions -- with the root, 3rd, 5th or 7th in the base, and play those on strings:

    6_543_
    _5_321
    _5432_
    __4321

    Or as much is graspable. As far as interrelations, it's good to be able to connect the chords to make base lines or melody lines (I can't write or both because I can't do that!).

    And a some point you start sprinkling in chord extensions, substitutions and passing chords.

  13. #12
    Sounds advanced, but good to know

    I was thinking earlier about how these chords are like colours (actually and I am not trying to 'change the subject'---many moons ago when I was 15, I had an LSD trip. A couple of people were playing guitars and I saw tiny specks of colours flying from the strings as they were played!)---there is such subtle changes between some of these chords, and dramatic of course, and I have only tried a fraction of the possible chords
    Anyhow I just found this really interesting article about this which I really want to link here:
    Jazz Chords are Colours
    Last edited by elixzer; 04-24-2010 at 07:59 AM.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    By going through the motions I meant rote memorization. If you play the same progression the same way every time.

    For each chord, say a dominant seventh, you should be able to play it in four inversions -- with the root, 3rd, 5th or 7th in the base, and play those on strings:

    6_543_
    _5_321
    _5432_
    __4321

    Or as much is graspable. As far as interrelations, it's good to be able to connect the chords to make base lines or melody lines (I can't write or both because I can't do that!).

    And a some point you start sprinkling in chord extensions, substitutions and passing chords.

    I would like to continue with this question is possible, because i have arrived again at the needing to memorize those main chords I originally asked about as advised in the Jguitar chord contruction lessons

    I dont understand this? "6_543_
    _5_321
    _5432_
    __4321"

    Also it threw me when you added that I need to learn the inversions of those chords as swell as it doesn't mention that at that stage---or it doesn't seem to.
    People here have already said dont over tax yourself (aaahhhh poor me, olol) So if again you sare saying that memorizing those chords and ALL their inversions is right, I just need to know if this is the right order. I am confused

    Let me remind what lesson says:

    ""The first step is memorizing the chords and chord tones of the C major scale and the chord formula's:

    Cmaj7 C E G B Dm7 D F A C Em7 E G B D Fmaj7 F A C E G7 G B D F Am7 A C E G Bm7b5 B D F A

    You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C major without thinking.""

    It doesn't say anything about inversions--does it?

  15. #14

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    Do you want to really learn chord construction and all those voicings? this course is a killer : (Howard Morgen is a quite respected educator and this course is really a fretboard breakthrough).
    Jazz Guitar Lessons - Fingerboard Breakthrough - Howard Morgen

    Also the Jimmy Bruno Institute has a cool section on chords.
    Anyway:what Big Daddy mentioned are groups of strings of the guitar,and you should learn the voicings of the chords in those strings. Inversions are just reordering the above chords.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixzer;77438
    Also it threw me when you added that I need to learn the inversions of those chords as swell as it doesn't mention that at that stage---or it doesn't seem to.
    People here have already said dont over tax yourself (aaahhhh poor me, olol) So if again you sare saying that memorizing those chords and ALL their inversions is right, I just need to know if this is the right order. I am confused

    Let me remind what lesson says:

    ""The first step is memorizing the [B
    chords[/B] and chord tones of the C major scale and the chord formula's:

    Cmaj7 C E G B Dm7 D F A C Em7 E G B D Fmaj7 F A C E G7 G B D F Am7 A C E G Bm7b5 B D F A

    You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C major without thinking.""

    It doesn't say anything about inversions--does it?
    I might have jumped the gun as far as inversions go, but people learn the material in different orders -- whatever works for you.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by nomelite
    Do you want to really learn chord construction and all those voicings? this course is a killer : (Howard Morgen is a quite respected educator and this course is really a fretboard breakthrough).
    Jazz Guitar Lessons - Fingerboard Breakthrough - Howard Morgen

    Also the Jimmy Bruno Institute has a cool section on chords.
    Anyway:what Big Daddy mentioned are groups of strings of the guitar,and you should learn the voicings of the chords in those strings. Inversions are just reordering the above chords.
    they're both pay sites, but I have been looking at Jimmy Bruno's sample lessons, and his take on things seems very interesting...yet dangerous for where I am, because he seems to call into question a lot of accepted practice, I enjoyed his chords sample, thanks

    At the moment I am trying to see where chord tones of C major scale are on the neck, and THEN I may begin to checkout their inversions

  18. #17

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    By the way if you don't want to enter Bruno's institute his DVD No Nonsense Jazz Guitar has that section of chords.

  19. #18
    OK, for last few days, when I've had time I have been doing what it says on your lessons:

    """The first step is memorizing the chords and chord tones of the C major scale and the chord formula's:

    Cmaj7 C E G B Dm7 D F A C Em7 E G B D Fmaj7 F A C E G7 G B D F Am7 A C E G Bm7b5 B D F A

    You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C major without thinking.""

    Now, if you were to say could i find these chords standing on my head the answer would be, no. I have rather been through from Cmajor7 to Bm7b5 and now have a feel for where the shapes are.
    I was thinking that today I may begin looking at inversions of Cmajor7, but thought i'd ask if going on to inversions would muddy the water. Ie., would it confuse my getting to know the chords and chord tones---get me?

    It SEEMS in your lesson you are saying to first memorize them in their root position?

    ORRRRR would me now exploring their inversions ENRICH my understanding of them and deepen my memorization of them, and their meansing, and interelationships??

    what do you think from your experience?
    Last edited by elixzer; 04-30-2010 at 06:49 AM.

  20. #19

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    Hey Forum, I have another question related to this Chord e-Book too, Here it goes:

    I was told that a Dm11 chord (or any X11 chord), had (1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11).

    In the example, the 9 is omitted.

    So, I'd say that the chords in that example is a Dm7(+11).

    Who's right?

    Thanks.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by NicolasV
    Hey Forum, I have another question related to this Chord e-Book too, Here it goes:



    I was told that a Dm11 chord (or any X11 chord), had (1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11).

    In the example, the 9 is omitted.

    So, I'd say that the chords in that example is a Dm7(+11).

    Who's right?

    Thanks.
    Generally, if you extend up to the 11th, the 9th is certainly assumed to be available. You can play it or not.

    However, if you write Dm7(+11) you are liable to have someone interpret the "+11" as "#11" giving you something you didn't intend.

    If you want to specify Dm7 with an 11th, but no 9th, Dm7(add11) would probably be the better way to notate.

  22. #21

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    + equals #. not add .

    Although an 11th contains a ninth it is sometimes omitted.

    Same goes for a 13th. It containd both the 9 and 11 but you don't have to include them .

    Especialy in the case of the 11th. You would normally leave it out unless the chord is a 13#11

  23. #22

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    Thank you both. (:

  24. #23

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    Here's my two rules of thumb for finding some 11th chords, quickly:

    1. If the 3rd and 4th are a half step apart, take a fingering and raise the third to become the fourth (11th):

    C7 -> C7(add11) x3x353 -> x3x363
    GMaj7 -> GMaj7(add11) xx5432 -> xx5532

    2. If the 3rd and 4th are further apart, take a fingering and lower the fifth to become the fourth (11th):

    Amin7 -> Amin7(add11) 5x555x -> 5x553x
    GMaj7 -> GMaj7(add#11) 3x443x -> 3x442x

    To my ear, a major 3rd and a perfect 4th together in the chord sounds off, but an augmented 4th and a perfect 5th sounds good:

    GMaj7(add#11) 35x422

  25. #24
    [quote=elixzer;76189]Yes, that is REALLY getting to me I will study more into what you have said here. I was thinking that maybe the fret count wasn't obviously doing it for me, and this makes far more sense!! Thanks so much

    +1

  26. #25

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    elixzer, what helped me understand the chords was to take my chordbook and analyze each note and determine their intervals. It was a surprise for me when I found some mistakes in the book. We all make mistakes, even whoever who publishes his/her chord book. Since then I stopped learning chord shapes and started "creating" my fingerings. That helped me learn to play diads, triads and 4, 5 or 6 note chords.