Do We Need "Practical Jazz Originals"?

[lawson-stone]

I enjoy the monthly "Practical Standards" group as a way to work through the "Great American Songbook" tunes. I have also wondered if we should have a group working through the "jazz originals" that are mainstays of many jam sessions. Tunes like "All Blues," "Four," "Graveyard," (oops, GROOVEYARD) "Joy Spring," etc. I don't even know how the list would be compiled, but as a monthly exercise that could be a fun complement to the "Practical Standards" group.

What do you all think?

[grahambop]

I think it’s a great idea, I find some of the old ‘songbook’ standards can be a little uninteresting at times. There are loads of great jazz original tunes out there.

[jameslovestal]

I also agree that a focus on what I call jazz-jazz-standards (songs written by jazz musicians and for their own recording, instead of a musical, play, or the movies), by a working-group, is a great idea.

[AllanAllen]

I thought if it was in the real book it was a standard.

Everybody ready for this can of worms...


What makes a song a standard?

[mr. beaumont]

I'd be all about this.

[starjasmine]

Sounds like a great idea.

[grahambop]

I thought if it was in the real book it was a standard.

Everybody ready for this can of worms...


What makes a song a standard?

Yes but the ‘practical standards’ thread is using a chronological list. So it probably won’t get to many of the ‘jazz originals’ for quite a while yet. The tune for this month dates from 1929.

[John A.]

As a latecomer to this thing, I didn't realize such tunes weren't included, or that tune selection was being done chronologically. I'd rather see that re-thought and just open the selection up to anything that is a standard in the sense of being part of more-ore-less standard jazz repertoire than proliferate the categories.

John

[grahambop]

Actually I don’t think the practical standards are entirely in chronological order, I seem to recall it’s based on the order of the tunes at the jazzstandards website (but excluding any tunes which have already been done in previous incarnations of the ‘practical standards’ thread - there’s a ‘sticky’ thread at the top which lists these).

I believe the jazzstandards website says it lists them in order of the number of recordings. So this does tend to prioritise the older ‘songbook’ standards, over the ‘jazz original’ tunes, which generally occur much later in the list.

At least I think that’s how it works!

[grahambop]

Tunes like "Graveyard,"

I don’t dig that tune.

[AllanAllen]

Yes but the ‘practical standards’ thread is using a chronological list. So it probably won’t get to many of the ‘jazz originals’ for quite a while yet. The tune for this month dates from 1929.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[jameslovestal]

I don’t dig that tune.

Funny, but I was about to provide a serious reply (since I love the tune), but then, DUH,,,, I got the joke.

I often find the most soulful playing on an album by many of my favorite jazz musicians is on this tune. E.g. Milt and Pass.

I guess it is all in the groove.

[fep]

There was a time when Wizard would ask for song suggestions for the Practical Standards thread. Nothing is written in stone.

[grahambop]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I remembered it’s not quite as simple as that, see more details in post no. 9.

[andyb]

I enjoy the monthly "Practical Standards" group as a way to work through the "Great American Songbook" tunes. I have also wondered if we should have a group working through the "jazz originals" that are mainstays of many jam sessions. Tunes like "All Blues," "Four," "Graveyard," (oops, GROOVEYARD) "Joy Spring," etc. I don't even know how the list would be compiled, but as a monthly exercise that could be a fun complement to the "Practical Standards" group.

What do you all think?

Hi Lawson.

Are you proposing something like this?

andyb

[lawson-stone]

There was a time when Wizard would ask for song suggestions for the Practical Standards thread. Nothing is written in stone.

At the moment it does indeed follow the tune list of the learn jazz standards website, skipping tunes we might have recently covered. This decision is fairly recent I think.


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[Lobomov]

At the moment it does indeed follow the tune list of the learn jazz standards website, skipping tunes we might have recently covered. This decision is fairly recent I think.


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Link to said list?

I could only find alphabetical lists

[kris]

The monthly "Practical Standards" group genaraly show how to play a head of the standards.I think more important in jazz is improvisation over chord progrsions.
It takes a lot of time be a good improviser and a good jazz player.

[grahambop]

Link to said list?

I could only find alphabetical lists

Here (we are on no. 72). You also need to exclude any tunes listed in the ‘sticky’ thread at the top of this Lessons sub-forum.

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

[grahambop]

At the moment it does indeed follow the tune list of the learn jazz standards website, skipping tunes we might have recently covered. This decision is fairly recent I think.


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I believe Wiz used to spend quite a lot of time on it each month, producing a list, doing a poll, advising the results in time for the next month, he even produced lead sheets and a backing track I think! Eventually he didn’t want to continue with it, so now M-ster does it on the current basis which was agreed.

[AllanAllen]

The monthly "Practical Standards" group genaraly show how to play a head of the standards.I think more important in jazz is improvisation over chord progrsions.
It takes a lot of time be a good improviser and a good jazz player.

I think one follows the other. Especially when you're starting out. One can romanticize that they never learned a lick or copied anything, but if you can't even play, what's the point? I use the melody of Sandu in my rock blues playing all the time. But I don't have any lofty goals of moving the genre ahead, I'm just having fun.

[kris]

Here (we are on no. 72). You also need to exclude any tunes listed in the ‘sticky’ thread at the top of this Lessons sub-forum.

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

Now I know why Ragman is always first...

[kris]

I believe Wiz used to spend quite a lot of time on it each month, producing a list, doing a poll, advising the results in time for the next month, he even produced lead sheets and a backing track I think! Eventually he didn’t want to continue with it, so now M-ster does it on the current basis which was agreed.

Great work!

[Lobomov]

Here (we are on no. 72). You also need to exclude any tunes listed in the ‘sticky’ thread at the top of this Lessons sub-forum.

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

Oh .. I got Rhythm next month?


That's a big one

[grahambop]

Never heard of it!

[mr. beaumont]

Let's do some tunes written after 1940!

[patshep]

How about we just play the tunes we like, instead of what we are "supposed to play"
biggest problem with jazz is that it is unapproachable to a lot of people, imo largely because of this mentality

[Lobomov]

How about we just play the tunes we like, instead of what we are "supposed to play"
biggest problem with jazz is that it is unapproachable to a lot of people, imo largely because of this mentality

I tend to recall that there have been a few play whatever threads .. if nothing else there was a play your own compositions thread at one point.


The good thing with the standard of the month approach is that it takes away having to decide what to play, you have 30 days to learn the tune and there is at times some back and forth within the thread, where people inspire each other.

It's not a bad thing but if anyone has the energy to make a list of 12 modern songs for the rest of the year, I don't see why having two standards of the month would be a bad thing. If there is little interest then we can always just let it die again


Just needs someone to take charge and say this is it .. here are 12 tunes, let's get it going

[starjasmine]

Any interest in trying Bruce Forman's list of the top 10 "must know" tunes?

On the "Guitar Wank" podcast, Bruce Forman and Scott Henderson discuss Bruce's list of 10 songs that a beginning jazz guitarist should learn. He says these teach you a lot about how the classic standards are put together, and everyone plays these, so they'll get you started for jam session, etc.

GuitarWank - episode 12 - April 4, 2016 ? GuitarWank

Here are the tunes, and the reasons he gives. No real surprises, but it's a cool list, and I enjoyed his explanations for what each tune teaches.

* Autumn Leaves--learn about the cycle
* Take the A Train--[didn't catch a reason, perhaps because it moves to II?]
* All The Things You Are--hard, but best example of how the cycle works, and a great form
* It Could Happen To You (or Ain't Misbehaving)--Chromatic ascending bass line
* There Will Never Be Another You--Backcycling to IV
* Honeysuckle Rose--ii-V-Is, and the classic bridge, highly quoted melody
* Satin Doll--everyone plays it, and a great study in ii-V-Is
* Green Dolphin--cool form, "triadic shift--C to Eb to D to Db)" also cool backcyling through relative minor
* Just Friends--starts on the IV, great melody, check out Parker with strings
* Stella by Starlight--hard, but everyone wants to play it, so you've got to know it.

[Reg]

Yea... maybe have two tunes each month... I would think most have already played Bruce's list a million times.

Personally.... I use to learn and gain much more from trying tunes I didn't really know. When you spend lots of time on one tune at a time and basically memorize everything etc... That becomes your learning style, it's more of the classical tradition. Not bad or wrong but not the only approach to learning how to play in a jazz style. And without actually practicing performing jazz in a non rehearsed style, well it generally doesn't happen.

I guess you could just have two different style performances of each tune. Different styles imply different harmonic and rhythmic organization...

[mr. beaumont]

Thats precisely why I dig Jam of the Week, Reg.

[ragman1]

Do We Need "Practical Jazz Originals"?

Yes and no. Basically, a tune's a tune. You've got the head, the chords and the rhythm, and off you go, whether it's 'Autumn In New York' or 'All Blues'. I agree that some of the GASB tunes can be a bit dull but it depends how you do them.

So, yes, we could do the list and also do off-the-list requests, but I doubt because a tune is more modern it's necessarily going to magically transform our playing. I don't think it will unless we magically transform the tune!

To be frank, I don't see a lot of experimentation here. The standard way of doing things seems to be to get a backing track - which is nearly always in the usually accepted style - and grind it out. Pretty much the same with chord melodies, really. But how many people change the rhythm or key, or reharm it?

For example, Try looking at Rosenwinkel doing 'More Than You Know', which is the current one. Improv starts at 3.40 aprox. It's not the tune, it's the way you do it.

[ragman1]

HOWEVER...

The Jazz Standards list at the moment is being followed by 'Rank'.

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

There's nothing to stop us changing it and using the 'By Year' order. For example, here's the 1960's list. Looks a bit different!

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

But I think a mixture is better.

[fep]

Do We Need "Practical Jazz Originals"?

Yes and no. Basically, a tune's a tune. You've got the head, the chords and the rhythm, and off you go, whether it's 'Autumn In New York' or 'All Blues'. I agree that some of the GASB tunes can be a bit dull but it depends how you do them.

So, yes, we could do the list and also do off-the-list requests, but I doubt because a tune is more modern it's necessarily going to magically transform our playing. I don't think it will unless we magically transform the tune!

To be frank, I don't see a lot of experimentation here. The standard way of doing things seems to be to get a backing track - which is nearly always in the usually accepted style - and grind it out. Pretty much the same with chord melodies, really. But how many people change the rhythm or key, or reharm it?

For example, Try looking at Rosenwinkel doing 'More Than You Know', which is the current one. Improv starts at 3.40 aprox. It's not the tune, it's the way you do it.

Good point, Julian Lage doing Autumn Leaves:

[rpjazzguitar]

Seems to me it depends on the harmony.

The jazz standards mentioned in the OP include Four and All Blues -- great tunes, of course, but the harmony isn't really much different from tin pan alley standards.

Wayne Shorter tunes, otoh, are different. If your goal includes playing that kind of tune, you have to go beyond tin pan alley.

For that matter, Stella and Miss Jones are examples of older tunes with some more sophisticated harmony.

On the way, it may be worth playing standards which are not in the usual key.

[jameslovestal]

The monthly "Practical Standards" group genaraly show how to play a head of the standards.I think more important in jazz is improvisation over chord progrsions.
It takes a lot of time be a good improviser and a good jazz player.

Knowing the melody well, and the notes used related to the harmony, is key to improvising. One can learn to improvise over common chord changes that don't even have a melody as a way to increase one's understanding of the scales associated with the chord progression.

But if one is going to improvise over an actual song (jazz standard), I have found one can't over learn a melody or practice variations of the melody too-much.

[kris]

Knowing the melody well, and the notes used related to the harmony, is key to improvising. One can learn to improvise over common chord changes that don't even have a melody as a way to increase one's understanding of the scales associated with the chord progression.

But if one is going to improvise over an actual song (jazz standard), I have found one can't over learn a melody or practice variations of the melody too-much.

You probably do not understand my post...sorry.
I wrote about guitarists who played only head and stoped.
It is different problem how the melody of the standard inspire jazz player.
A lot of tunes has the same or similar chord changes and you practise over these changes...in.ex major jazz blues or minor jazz blues or rhytm changes...etc.

[kris]

Do We Need "Practical Jazz Originals"?

Yes and no. Basically, a tune's a tune. You've got the head, the chords and the rhythm, and off you go, whether it's 'Autumn In New York' or 'All Blues'. I agree that some of the GASB tunes can be a bit dull but it depends how you do them.

So, yes, we could do the list and also do off-the-list requests, but I doubt because a tune is more modern it's necessarily going to magically transform our playing. I don't think it will unless we magically transform the tune!

To be frank, I don't see a lot of experimentation here. The standard way of doing things seems to be to get a backing track - which is nearly always in the usually accepted style - and grind it out. Pretty much the same with chord melodies, really. But how many people change the rhythm or key, or reharm it?

"For example, Try looking at Rosenwinkel doing 'More Than You Know', which is the current one. Improv starts at 3.40 aprox. It's not the tune, it's the way you do it."

You answered yourself.Who is ready doing experimentation here?
Kurt Rosenwinkel is one of the top guitarists in world jazz.
There are a lot of hobbists here and it is really difficult to tell somebody play like Kurt or Pat,or Joe.
...anyway Tunes inspire improvisers/ melodies and chords/.........
Kris

[Lobomov]

It's not the tune, it's the way you do it.

You're right and I absolutely agree. All of this standard of the month extravaganza is way too much. We should just do All the things you are and leave it at that

[kris]

You're right and I absolutely agree. All of this standard of the month extravaganza is way too much. We should just do All the things you are and leave it at that

You are right.
To play good jazz tune like All The Things...it's take More Than You Know times...:-)

[christianm77]

One problem with jazz tunes is the tendency to want to sound like the record. This is not so much a problem with vocal standards. (Not that sounding like the record is necessarily a bad thing to aim for always; it’s a great way of learning.)

It is possible to do this, but a bit harder, takes a bit more work. Fun though.

[kris]

It is a good example how to play modern tune in Django style.
Orginal take:

[christianm77]

It is a good example how to play modern tune in Django style.
Orginal take:

Well I’m thinking you can probably put any tune into Django style lol; along with playing it in a different time signature it saves on actually having to think of anything... but it gets the ball rolling.

Anyway can’t watch vids - is that the one with THAT Brad Mehldau solo? (Looks like Brad in the thumbnail.)

[Lobomov]

Well I’m thinking you can probably put any tune into Django style lol; along with playing it in a different time signature it saves on actually having to think of anything... but it gets the ball rolling.

Anyway can’t watch vids - is that the one with THAT Brad Mehldau solo? (Looks like Brad in the thumbnail.)

I have no idea what the one with THAT Brad Mehldau solo is, but yeah .. There is a very primal 4 minute Brad Meldhau solo in it, so yeah .. probably

Line up is; Joshua Redman - ts Brad Mehldau - p Christian McBride - b Brian Blade - dr

[christianm77]

I have no idea what the one with THAT Brad Mehldau solo is, but yeah .. There is a very primal 4 minute Brad Meldhau solo in it, so yeah .. probably

Line up is; Joshua Redman - ts Brad Mehldau - p Christian McBride - b Brian Blade - dr

Guitar obsessive might note that Metheny is on the album cut

[Doublea A]

I enjoy the monthly "Practical Standards" group as a way to work through the "Great American Songbook" tunes. I have also wondered if we should have a group working through the "jazz originals" that are mainstays of many jam sessions. Tunes like "All Blues," "Four," "Graveyard," (oops, GROOVEYARD) "Joy Spring," etc. I don't even know how the list would be compiled, but as a monthly exercise that could be a fun complement to the "Practical Standards" group.

What do you all think?

Sounds like a great idea


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kris]

Well I’m thinking you can probably put any tune into Django style lol; along with playing it in a different time signature it saves on actually having to think of anything... but it gets the ball rolling.

Anyway can’t watch vids - is that the one with THAT Brad Mehldau solo? (Looks like Brad in the thumbnail.)

I am not sure to put any tune into Django style...but everybody can try lol.

[lawson-stone]

You probably do not understand my post...sorry.
I wrote about guitarists who played only head and stoped.
It is different problem how the melody of the standard inspire jazz player.
A lot of tunes has the same or similar chord changes and you practise over these changes...in.ex major jazz blues or minor jazz blues or rhytm changes...etc.

For some of us playing the head well is about as far as we can get in a month's time. The thread is in "Lessons" section which might suggest it's aimed at perhaps beginning/intermediate players, though obviously lots of advanced players post (THANKS FOR THAT!). I think learning to play the head well is a great first step for somebody closer to the beginning of their journey.

[lawson-stone]

You're right and I absolutely agree. All of this standard of the month extravaganza is way too much. We should just do All the things you are and leave it at that

Someone who doesn't like a Standard of the Month group of course doesn't have to pay any attention to it. Others like it a lot. that's why we have so many sub-forums and threads, to accommodate a range of interests.

[christianm77]

I am not sure to put any tune into Django style...but everybody can try lol.

Yeah you can. Totally works.