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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    OK, you win. Maybe you have a point. I respect your erudition, dedication and all the info you've provide on here. We all do. But I won't lower this to a pissing contest with you or anyone else. Let's keep it on the sharing knowledge plane it's been on up til now. Please?
    that's not the point, it's just wrong to say that good solo jazz guitarists have studied at the same time Teddy Greene, RnB, Afro-cuban and African percussions. They are not found in their music, or very indirectly, and not in their testimony about how they learned jazz. In the forum's topics that talk about Guitar Jazz Solo, there are no such references. I would like to change my point of view if you provide evidence to support your statement, what I always try to do, not to display my "erudition", but to give my readers the sources and references that they can consult themselves or from which I am inspired

    it is not a question of "win" or ego, but to assume his words

    but you prefer to move to another register, as I understand you ...

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    but you prefer to move to another register, as I understand you ...
    Please. The sharing knowledge one...

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Please. The sharing knowledge one...
    no one wants to share false things. It is part of the knowledge to restore them to the truth

  5. #29
    This whole page---wow!:

    african polyrhythms - YouTube

  6. #30
    To put a lid on this, my friend: When anyone generalizes about anything I think 'wait, has he interviewed everyone referred to? Checked out every example of work'?

    That's my only objection, though you may have somewhat of a valid point. Let's talk in specifics, not generalities, that's all...

  7. #31
    OK...

  8. #32
    This guy humanizes it. This is basic, understandable, wonderful:


  9. #33

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    something much more 'intellectual' György Ligeti, Source Daniel Goyone

    same with Bach rythmicien
    an example with Glenn Gould

    translate by Bing
    Among the countless laurel wreaths he is braided, Jean Sébastien Bach is rarely awarded that of a rhythmian. His rhythmic art, although perfectly accomplished, is closely subject to the art of counterpoint and the metrics he uses (2, 3 or 4 times, binary or ternary) are common.

    One aspect, however, is worth noting: J.S. Bach repeatedly uses metrics rated at 3/4, but played in tempi so slow that they are perceived as 6-stroke measures.

    These are among Bach's works, extremely beautiful and touching compositions, with extraordinary melodies.
    The three-stroke swing, combined with a very slow tempo, gives a characteristic feeling of weightlessness and time dilation. This slowness does not correspond to the generally accepted notion for rhythmic music, but there is a specific rhythmic characteristic. To perceive the interest you have to know how to put yourself in unison with this very slow pulse.

    In the symbolism of this period, the number 3, associated with the symbol of the circle, is a symbol of celestial perfection as opposed to the binary, which is associated with the earth's imperfection. This symbolism is found in the current notation: The c symbol (for a measure of 4 c barred (for a measure at 2 times) symbolize the imperfection of a broken circle.

    Here are 4 particularly interesting examples [...]

  10. #34
    Thanks for that, really.

    Not trying to control this in any way, however, myself, I want to stay with the Afro-Carribbean tip and not so much the European classical. Only for the purposes of this thread.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with you or your very welcome input: Years ago I had a great teacher, a pianist who shaped my thinking about many things in music and life. I think of him almost every day. But he was human, and somewhat flawed like all us humans. He would never cop to it but he was prejudiced. He might have a person of color over for dinner or as a student and treat him peachy keen, but the prejudices surfaced in discussions that could get heated, then turn ugly with him making unconscionably mean accusations and showing thinking that reflected his upbringing by an uneducated longshoreman. My teacher was educated, and should have known better. But the education was part of the problem: the academy shaped his thinking as much as his forbears and early environment (born in 1937).

    I'll never forget one discussion that went south like that, and ended in insults---which he would turn to when he had no convincing evidence to support his premise. I had broached this very thing: African-derived polyrhythms. I had heard these conga drummers play on the beach and what they did---dancing as they 'conversed'---blew me away. So that was on my mind and I was excited to tell him about it. He couldn't see it, and said things like 'Are you gonna compare that to Bach?', etc. It ended with him shaking head and fist at me for being an idiot he couldn't take seriously. I loved the guy, still do, but no way could I apologize for his bald racism and incomplete schooling.

    Of course I want to learn and apply what great men like those you speak of did. They're way ahead of me. My feeling is that classical people are way ahead of some jazzers and some Afro-Caribbean musicians----harmonically. Maybe 50 to 100 years ahead. The European contribution to rhythm is as valid as a hat and coat in the winter. The African outlook and feeling is way different, and it is that gap in my knowledge that I want to fill.

    It just interests me more at this juncture, that's all...
    Last edited by joelf; 02-15-2020 at 09:18 PM.

  11. #35

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    And then you get bop where the linear ideas of Bach (esp minor key) are taken and made more sophisticated by the use of African Diaspora rhythm :-)

    like the first few bars of the Dm 2 part inventions is like really square bop. Look at the bridge melody of Night in Tunisia to see how the boppers refined and developed that basic material.

    (now of course before I get flamed by Jonah, Bach has its own sophistication. Jazz musicians were not involved in fugal technique or extended compositional structures..: Well not much. But I enjoy the reframe.

    all musical evolution is a both a development of some aspects of the prior art and simplification of others. Look at Mozart after Bach... why did people ever buy into the idea of historical progress in music? It’s asinine.)

    Anyway, to an uncultured ear, subtlety, structure and nuance are always missed. Of course Western Classical musicians get upset if you imply they are uncultured to some extent. Educationally disadvantaged in a lot of areas (aren’t we all?) But they are becoming more open. Partly it’s history and cultural hegemony, which keeps them in their box, but it’s also fear, of weakness, of ridicule...

    (I must talk about the fascinating politics of my music education course. So many cultural assumptions. Tutors who’ve all come up the same route.

    Really nice people, sure, but it’s interesting what goes on deeper. They’ll pay lip service to Critical Pedagogy, make out they are hip and open, but they really don’t like it when you question them.

    They have academic books about people like us you know that portray us in some sort of bucolic realm of ear learning and informal learning that hasn’t existed for 50 years if it ever did.

    Actual real jazz musicians don’t write academic texts on the whole. Thank god for Paul Berliner. I mean classical music world is all about the division of labour; performer, educator, composer. These distinctions are meaningless in jazz.

    It’s so insidious the way people get conditioned to think.

    but they are trying so hard, bless them.)

    to me it’s great to realise that there are limitations of my hearing. An opportunity to learn. I get to hear more and more all the time. I remember the first day I really started to hear quarter tones in Middle Eastern music, it was like a new door had opened.

    nowhere else is that truer than in jazz. To learn to be better musician is to learn to hear more, isn’t it?
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-15-2020 at 06:29 PM.

  12. #36

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    You know if I ever do a phd I’d love to do it on the contradictions of that institution haha.

  13. #37
    Right. That Paul Berliner book is so atypical b/c he takes the African approach of passing down the lore---letting the practitioners of the art speak. A very welcome addition to the literature...

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You know if I ever do a phd I’d love to do it on the contradictions of that institution haha.
    Bet you didn't know that I got a PhD.

    Poor Hebraic Dunce.

    Right proud I am, too...

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Bet you didn't know that I got a PhD.

    Poor Hebraic Dunce.

    Right proud I am, too...
    what in?

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Right. That Paul Berliner book is so atypical b/c he takes the African approach of passing down the lore---letting the practitioners of the art speak. A very welcome addition to the literature...
    it’s a god send for what I’m doing, but I think everyone should check it out... what Patloch was saying about the social conditions, the human side of the music .

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Thanks for that, really.

    Not trying to control this in any way, however, myself, I want to stay with the Afro-Carribbean tip and not so much the European classical. Only for the purposes of this thread.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with you or your very welcome input: Years ago I had a great teacher, a pianist who shaped my thinking about many things in music and life. I think of him almost every day. But he was human, and somewhat flawed like all us humans. He would never cop to it but he was prejudiced. He might have a person of color over for dinner or as a student and treat him peachy keen, but the prejudices surfaced in discussions that could get heated, then turn ugly with him making unconscionably mean accusations and showing thinking that reflected his upbringing by an uneducated longshoreman. My teacher was educated, and should have known better. But the education was part of the problem: the academy shaped his thinking as much as his forbears and early environment (born in 1937).

    I'll never forget one discussion that went south like that, and ended in insults---which he would turn to when he had no convincing evidence to support his premise. I had broached this very thing: African-derived polyrhythms. I had heard these conga drummers play on the beach and what they did---dancing as they 'conversed'---blew me away. So that was on my mind and I was excited to tell him about it. He couldn't see it, and said things like 'Are you gonna compare that to Bach?', etc. It ended with him shaking head and fist at him for being an idiot he couldn't take seriously. I loved the guy, still do, but no way could I apologize for his bald racism and incomplete schooling.

    Of course I want to learn and apply what great men like those you speak of did. They're way ahead of me. My feeling is that classical people are way ahead of some jazzers and some Afro-Caribbean musicians----harmonically. Maybe 50 to 100 years ahead. The European contribution to rhythm is as valid as a hat and coat in the winter. The African outlook and feeling is way different, and it is that gap in my knowledge that I want to fill.

    It just interests me more at this juncture, that's all...
    Gosh Joel. This is just profound. And clearly so personal for you. Thank you for sharing this.

  18. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Jazz musicians were not involved in fugal technique or extended compositional structures..: Well not much.
    Not so sure about that. Sophisticated jazz writers used counterpoint and fugues routinely. And---controversial comment alert!---the bebop writers moved backward in at least one respect: in the late '20s-'30s jazz arrangers were way more into through-composition. Radio Rhythm, (Nat Leslie, recorded by Fletcher Henderson) for only one example, moves and changes many times in a brief few minutes. No 'head-choruses-out' there. And even an easygoing tune like Line for Lyons uses counterpoint, as does many of Brubeck's tunes, I'm sure. Of course Brubeck studied formally with Milhaud. I know these guys didn't write whole proper fugues, but still...

  19. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Gosh Joel. This is just profound. And clearly so personal for you. Thank you for sharing this.
    We all have dark sides. Wouldn't be complete w/o them. I still love the guy and cherish what he gave so many, flaws aside.

    Also, you get older, you learn to sift...

  20. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    what in?
    Analysis of matzoh brei construction...

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    We all have dark sides. Wouldn't be complete w/o them. I still love the guy and cherish what he gave so many, flaws aside.

    Also, you get older, you learn to sift...
    Amen to that. Thanks again. I turned 65 last month... something about all those AARP letters and Medicare offers coming in has had a sobering effect on me. I need to learn to be more kind, to face my own dark side more honestly.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Not so sure about that. Sophisticated jazz writers used counterpoint and fugues routinely. And---controversial comment alert!---the bebop writers moved backward in at least one respect: in the late '20s-'30s jazz arrangers were way more into through-composition. Radio Rhythm, (Nat Leslie, recorded by Fletcher Henderson) for only one example, moves and changes many times in a brief few minutes. No 'head-choruses-out' there. And even an easygoing tune like Line for Lyons uses counterpoint, as does many of Brubeck's tunes, I'm sure. Of course Brubeck studied formally with Milhaud. I know these guys didn't write whole proper fugues, but still...
    haha, joking right? Yeah Bach is an inspiration for so many musicians. you have to study him if you are serious about the craft of composition imo.

    But to describe something being a development on Bach’s own terrain - counterpoint and so on - and not merely an homage or nifty use of those techniques... well, Im just saying you might end up in the weeds with someone a lot more knowledgable than me haha.

    To back to what you were saying earlier, the idea that some non Western music could be on the level of Bach is difficult to swallow for some to this day. Tbh we focus on the lone genius artist and the idea of music as eternal, beyond context in Western Muisc. Bach is the poster boy for that.

    That’s how its viewed I don’t think other cultures. It’s not really how it is in jazz - Berliner shows us that. And it wasn’t how it was in Bach’s time. Bach’s music was mostly for a purpose, very often church based for instance...

    but yes, I was actually thinking about the simplifications bop made to what came before as well as what it made more complicated when I wrote the above....
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-15-2020 at 07:46 PM.

  23. #47
    I miss the days of unschooled, log cabin blues and jazz musicians in a sense sometimes. I swear I do. There was an uncorrupted, unemcumbered purity you barely ever hear anymore...

  24. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ...the idea that some non Western music could be on the level of Bach is difficult to swallow for some to this day.
    =racism

  25. #49

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    from RHYTHMS OF THE WORLD
    to JAZZ GUITAR CROSS RHYTHMS
    as said elsewhere, polyrhythm can be done with a single line, melodic or not. It is found in Blue Monk, for example


    part 1: the IndianSubcontinent, the eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East pdf

    part 2:Africa, and Central and South America pdf

    example with SOLAR, Miles Davis

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    Analysis of matzoh brei construction...
    I think that’s what the Brits call egging the custard.