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  1. #101

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    Kris, thanks for those very kind words!

    Paul

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Me too. I throw away much more than I post. But for the sake of a note or two? Not worth it.

    ...but you are not me.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post

    ...but you are not me.
    I am tho.

  5. #104

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    I am literally everyone on this forum apart from the person reading this.

  6. #105

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    I like this old version very much:

  7. #106

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    Reading some comments on some clips, I wonder, were we listening to same thing? Then, on another clip, I kind of totally agree with those same people.

    For example, ... In spite of my disdain for Gypsy Jazz I liked AdrianH's take, I liked it better then one of Chat Atkins, where in Atkins's I actually think "flamenco" part was the best moment, but for the rest of overall discussion I mostly agree with ragman1, whose takes I kind of like to listen to for a while although I can not bare with them for long enough to get all the all important nuances, but just the same, even less I can not do it with takes most people seem to think of as being some kind of beautiful, and while I realize some of it is masterfully executed hard to play material, to me it still sounds more of disjointed paint by numbers thing, or some solve the puzzle exercise, even though I remember those same people playing different kind of stuff I thought was really good, before they turned to some new school of thought, or technique, or something, but at the same time ....
    ^ ^ ^
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  8. #107

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    Is the lack of punctuation an oblique critique of players who use too many notes without rests?

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Not sure who you're talking to here

    Well, whether it's for me or not, absolutely right. You can do that, start with the tune, build on it, do fills, maybe branch out a little, change a line here and there... and so on.

    But it's a formula, that's the trouble. Sorry, I'm repeating. Do you see that formulas are limiting, restricting?

    (Oh, by the way, argue as much as you like whether they're 'pros' or not. Don't be dumbed down, and don't dumb yourself down either. A decent player will hear you and answer you. We all had to start somewhere - so speak!)
    Agreed! Any one formula is going to be limiting, and anyone touting a single method as the way or "secret to unlocking" anything is full of shit. It takes all kinds, so this is just one tool.

    I didn't know you are Scottish; that earns you points in my book
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  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    I actually think "flamenco" part was the best moment
    Ha! You see? It doesn't matter what other people think!

    ragman1, whose takes I kind of like to listen to for a while although I can not bare with them for long
    Me neither...

  11. #110

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    Well, periods (we call them full stops)

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I didn't know you are Scottish; that earns you points in my book
    I regret only half Scots, so I'm only worth half the points now :-)

    Did you see that Mystery Clips thing? It's on the previous page.

  13. #112

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    I did, but I saw the post before you edited it so I knew the answer. I got your point thought
    White belt
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  14. #113

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    I saw the post before you edited
    Buggah! Quite interesting though, probably applies to almost anything.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Buggah! Quite interesting though, probably applies to almost anything.
    I did listen to the mystery clips with an ‘honest ear’ even though I’d seen the answer. I couldn’t get it from the first clip (piano), I might have got a hint in the Mulligan one, though not sure. But the third one (I think) was very clear. Guitar playing bass line and chords, that gave it in a few bars. I guess it was probably Joe Pass.

  16. #115

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    yeah that Joe Pass one was very clear by the straight forward chord progression
    White belt
    My Youtube

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I did listen to the mystery clips with an ‘honest ear’ even though I’d seen the answer. I couldn’t get it from the first clip (piano), I might have got a hint in the Mulligan one, though not sure. But the third one (I think) was very clear. Guitar playing bass line and chords, that gave it in a few bars. I guess it was probably Joe Pass.
    I think many of them were identifiable - Joe, Django, Metheny, McCoy Tyner... can't remember now. But the point was that the same tune (ATTYA) wasn't. The solos didn't really follow the tune or help to identify it.

    I'm not knocking the 'play the melody' idea completely, of course. As Bernstein points out in his vid, it's not so much literally play the melody - or just play some notes that go with the chords - but play something that infers the feel of the tune, its direction, mood, and so on.

    I'd go for that.

  18. #117

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    yeah I meant it was clearly ATTYA by the way Joe played it
    White belt
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  19. #118

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    ATTYAs melody is basically the changes anyway. At least until you get to the B.

    Anyway, I think Peter's advice was 'keep playing the melody over and over, varying it until it becomes unrecognisable.'

    The process and the end result are not the same thing.

    Students do sometimes second guess what comes out of the process before just going through it, because they are intelligent people and don't want to waste time. But sometimes, you just have to give it a go. Often it’s quicker.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-09-2018 at 05:32 PM. Reason: To make it less like a Donald Trump tweet. Slightly.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    In spite of my disdain for Gypsy Jazz I liked AdrianH's take
    Thanks! My take definitely wasn't gypsy jazz, though. It was played on a gypsy-jazz guitar, but the style was fingerstyle.

    You can rest assured your disdain for gypsy jazz remains consistent. :-)

    Adrian

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianh View Post
    Thanks! My take definitely wasn't gypsy jazz, though. It was played on a gypsy-jazz guitar, but the style was fingerstyle.

    You can rest assured your disdain for gypsy jazz remains consistent. :-)

    Adrian
    It's all about the choice of guitar.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianh View Post
    Thanks! My take definitely wasn't gypsy jazz, though. It was played on a gypsy-jazz guitar, but the style was fingerstyle.

    You can rest assured your disdain for gypsy jazz remains consistent. :-)

    Adrian
    To me, it sounded like Gypsy Jazzer playing Chat Atkins. Yes, maybe it was due guitar, probably was.
    ^ ^ ^
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  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    To me, it sounded like Gypsy Jazzer playing Chat Atkins. Yes, maybe it was due guitar, probably was.
    Sorry Vladan,
    It sounded like fingerstyle acoustic guitar for me.
    Very well played and without any flamenco...
    Best
    Kris

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It's all about the choice of guitar.
    This Chet Atkins arrange can be play on any kind of guitar ...ofcourse in fingerstyle.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    This Chet Atkins arrange can be play on any kind of guitar ...ofcourse in fingerstyle.
    If it’s played on a selmer maccaferri it’s Gypsy jazz.

    I have to say that the tonality of that kind of guitar does tend to make things sound like Django actually. You can be playing Inner Urge and it will sound like Django.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    To me, it sounded like Gypsy Jazzer playing Chat Atkins. Yes, maybe it was due guitar, probably was.
    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    Sorry Vladan,
    It sounded like fingerstyle acoustic guitar for me.
    Very well played and without any flamenco...
    Best
    Kris
    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    This Chet Atkins arrange can be play on any kind of guitar ...ofcourse in fingerstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    If it’s played on a selmer maccaferri it’s Gypsy jazz.

    I have to say that the tonality of that kind of guitar does tend to make things sound like Django actually. You can be playing Inner Urge and it will sound like Django.
    Of course, the sound of music has nothing to do with who played it, it's all up to intended style and type of instrument.
    ^ ^ ^
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  27. #126

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  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    If it’s played on a selmer maccaferri it’s Gypsy jazz.

    I have to say that the tonality of that kind of guitar does tend to make things sound like Django actually. You can be playing Inner Urge and it will sound like Django.

    I saw Birelli Lagrene played Gypsy jazz on Strat style electric guitar.
    is it not a Gypsy jazz? This do not sound like Django absolutly.

  29. #128

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    I think it's quite interesting that very few of us actually discuss how we play over these standards every month. At least, as far as I can see. Maybe the last time was Caravan, over that long section of C7 (or C7/Db7). That was a bit of a puzzle.

    With this tune here, I've been looking at what I was using to play over the two sections that begin Fm7b5/Bb7 (bars 9 - 12 and 25 - 26). I've been playing a few things - Ab mel and outline the Bb7 or Bb13. Or Ab mel and F dorian. Or maybe Bb7b9.

    Or, maybe, Eb harmonic m. That's probably the nearest one theoretically because it treats the chords as a ii-V of Ebm. You get the natural D over the Fm7b5 as opposed to Db. But harmonic minor can get a bit sweet after a while... you know.

    To those players who've contributed their versions here, how have you approached these chords, as a matter of interest? Not a theoretical answer, but what have you actually played?

    Just wondering. Of course, writing it all down like this doesn't make for easy to read posts, so sorry for that.

  30. #129

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    I never think about scales really. Mainly I just think of melodic ideas based around the chords, after all these years I seem to be able to do this largely by ear, I don’t even know what notes I’m playing most of the time.

    If I get a bit stuck on a tricky chord change, I just pick out the chord tones and build some ideas off that.

    If I’m playing solo guitar, I’ll tend to play more using lines constructed around the actual chord shapes, it seems to make things easier for integrating chords and lines.

  31. #130

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    I didn't think scales either, at first. I was just doing something with Abm6 over the m7b5 and maybe a b9 over the dom.

    Worked perfectly well till I realised that those two chords were in Eb harm. As I said, that gives the nat D. I probably wouldn't have used that otherwise but it does actually give a different flavour to it... hence my post. That's all really :-)

  32. #131

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    There are different chord changes for this tune...

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    There are different chord changes for this tune...
    For this part of the tune I've only seen Db9 instead of Fm7b5 - which I'd still play basically as Abm6. (No one is going to play Gb major).

    Elsewhere the main difference is in the second bar where Bb7+ has become Ab7. Do you know of any others?

  34. #133

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    9-12 bars
    Aebersold version:
    Abmin /Bb7/Abmin/Dmin7b5 G7+9/

    another version;
    Fmin7b5/Bb7/Fmin7b5/Bb7 Bdim/

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    People care far too much about the chords. They are only there to support the melody.

    (Well, in the case of tunes written as songs...)
    Melody and chord changes are very important.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I never think about scales really. Mainly I just think of melodic ideas based around the chords, after all these years I seem to be able to do this largely by ear, I don’t even know what notes I’m playing most of the time.

    If I get a bit stuck on a tricky chord change, I just pick out the chord tones and build some ideas off that.

    If I’m playing solo guitar, I’ll tend to play more using lines constructed around the actual chord shapes, it seems to make things easier for integrating chords and lines.
    The best way for me is transcribing solos of masters and analyse what they play.
    It takes a years of work.You play what you learn.
    Scof,Stern and others doing that all the time.

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    9-12 bars
    Aebersold version:
    Abmin /Bb7/Abmin/Dmin7b5 G7+9/

    another version;
    Fmin7b5/Bb7/Fmin7b5/Bb7 Bdim/
    I don’t really see that as different. The voice leading is very similar. Basically b6-5. And then move to relative minor with a #5.

    (And Barry Harris people may note the sub Bb7 Bo7 for Dm7b5 G7, and the whole progression is an expression of maj6-dim.)

    What’s different is the bass you choose to use. But if you aren’t playing in a group with a bass player that decision should be made by you based on what makes a good counterpoint to the melody.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-11-2018 at 05:27 AM.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    9-12 bars
    Aebersold version:
    Abmin /Bb7/Abmin/Dmin7b5 G7+9
    Thanks... so really it's all much the same (your second version is my first one).

    Melody and chord changes are very important.
    Of course they are. I am not of the school that just sort of 'plays something' and then obfuscates when asked about it, like they just pulled something out of a hat. All players know exactly what they're playing otherwise they couldn't do it. Even if they make mistakes and then cover them.

    The best way for me is transcribing solos of masters and analyse what they play.
    I used to do that until I realised they weren't doing anything particularly different, just the normal stuff. But it was the way they did it, their style or fluency that made it attractive. I'd go looking for the magic secret... and find there wasn't one.

    At least, I haven't found one yet unless it's practice and thoughtfulness :-)

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    Melody and chord changes are very important.
    Perhaps I should be more specific. People often analyse things from the point of view of chord symbols. Harmony isn’t chord symbols, chord symbols are just a simplification.

    A good standards player will understand the voice leading encoded into the chord symbol if they can’t just hear the harmony intuitively.

    Again this is one of those things that is much easier I think to appreciate on a piano keyboard than the fretboard. Coupled with the fact that the piano is often the first choice for harmonic instrument so get to play this material lots and lots on gigs, it’s easy to see why pianists are far and away better at this stuff then the vast majority of guitar players. It’s not our fault! )

    Unfortunately I think sometimes chord symbols become the basis of theory and jazz education and you can’t half hear it in people’s playing (i hear it mine.) I think the melody oriented approach acts as a useful corrective to this.

    Ideally we would play the chords we play not because the chord symbol says play Fm7b5 but because we know from the melody there is Cb in the key of Eb. (If you are looking at things through CST prism you can link that into a chord scale organisation of course.)

    In fact one thing about the melody of Tenderly is just how much it says about the harmony. It’s very descriptive, not all vocal standards are, in fact.

    So melody often gives you the harmony.
    Notice that a really important feature of the tune is this b6-5 motif. Also b3-2.

    Not true for all standards but very true for this one I think.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-11-2018 at 05:30 AM.

  40. #139

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    one of the versions:
    March 2018 - Tenderly-tenderly-1-jpg

  41. #140

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    Quite, which is why, when I hear the melody for bars 9-12, I think ivm - V. So it doesn't matter whether it's played Abm, or Abm6, or Fm9, or Fm7b5 to Bb7, it's all the same.

  42. #141

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    It’s Cb not B natural!!!!!!!

    *Upends table*

  43. #142

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    Dbbb ectually

  44. #143

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    There is my take - exercise with more scale playing over Tenderly changes.
    mostly straight 8ths...over groovy backing tr.
    Best
    Kris

    https://app.box.com/s/n6mp7gqq2ajgzgif7yy7q08dpazj08bp

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    There is my take - exercise with more scale playing over Tenderly changes.
    mostly straight 8ths...over groovy backing tr.
    Best
    Kris

    https://app.box.com/s/n6mp7gqq2ajgzgif7yy7q08dpazj08bp
    Your solo brought a smile to my baby daughter’s face.

    This puts you in the same category as Wes, Eddie Van Halen, JS Bach, Chic, Bruno Mars and Dizzee Rascal*

    I of course objected to the fact that you payed all your C flats as B naturals

    Seriously man, I dig your playing. I’m guilty atm of ‘typing a good solo’ as Zucker puts it as my time to record playing for the forum is pretty limited. But I’ll try and get something up.

    *she has no time for Stevie Wonder, Schubert, Scnittke, or La Nozze di Figaro

  46. #145

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    Daylight savings time sucks. Kids were up way too early, but I like this tune, so I tried a little something...tenderly.



    As far as concept, if anyone's interested I'll explain, but it's pretty generic...I thought of chords, I thought of subs, I thought of the notes in those chords, practiced the tune a few times, then hit record.

    Btw, this tune has really pretty, non cheeseball lyrics for a standard. No pug nosed dreams stuck like kittens in a tree here.

    Oh, and comments and suggestions are fine.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-11-2018 at 10:27 AM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    comments and suggestions are fine.
    Masterful.

    I wish that had been recorded for a CD, really.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Masterful.

    I wish that had been recorded for a CD, really.
    ....CD - but with singing jazz baby,

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    singing jazz baby
    As long as we don't get the singing flamenco baby we'll be fine!

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk View Post
    like with most subtle and profound things, it's easy and common to confuse the starting point with the endgame
    I don't know. I think most people, not just players, can differentiate between something basic and real fluency.

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    As long as we don't get the singing flamenco baby we'll be fine!
    I really think if you remove my kids yelling and pounding on shit in the background my videos would lose a lot of charm
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington