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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... this thread might need some help... the point of this thread is to have a place to post examples of playing through standards and get feedback... positive feedback.

    The point is to help learn the tune and get insights from different players. It doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.

    I'll start getting back involved... with M-ster's OK.
    You don't need my okay, Reg. Post away, sir!

    (Thought I posted that yesterday, but I don't see it in the thread.)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster
    You don't need my okay, Reg. Post away, sir!

    (Thought I posted that yesterday, but I don't see it in the thread.)
    It WAS there...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-11-2018 at 03:43 PM.

  4. #53

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    Question for mr. Reg:
    We are talking about blues feel over standard jazz progressions so where are bendings,light strings etc
    Most of jazz guitarsits use hard strings or hard tension set up.
    How do you mean blues feel?
    I am big fan of Scof...sometimes I think he is a reall blues player/ look BB.King/.
    I've heard Scof interpretation of ballad with a lot of string bendings used in typical blues/not jazzy blues/.
    I talked about the same to Mike Stern two months ago.Mike said - "my playing is from the heart"..." I feel bluesy today"...
    I like it.It is so natural.
    Thanks
    Kris

  5. #54

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    Hey Kris.

    I'm not talking about Rock and roll blues. light strings, bending, rock pentatonics, cowboy chords etc...

    Generally the blues with jazz... are just use of Blue notes, and harmony, (chords) that are derived from blue notes. More from the gospel blues direction. Jazz blues.... not rock blues.

    The feel... it's difficult to break down.... so feel is basically how one organizes time.... and how they organize the attacks and articulations.

    Personally... the difference in feel, rhythmically, is how the swing aspect is played. Swing is about the breakdown of the triplet.

    Straight western swing, bluegrass etc... is straight. The phrasing is very mechanical, the breakdown is not stretched out. Don't just think or hear solos.... hear comping or rhythm section feel. Patterns are longer, comping phrases are longer and the patterns also have patterns.

    You can have a 16 bar phrase with repeating 4 bar patterns that have slight differences that also have a pattern.
    And then how one can organize the harmony, comping or soloing using that rhythmic feel.
    Or as could be with Take the A train... 8 bar phrases... I'll make vid asap.

    It's all good, no wrong... but different.

    You can imply a blue note and actually never play it. I remember years ago on this forum, I use to have heated discussions with this player, a straight player, very good player... but somewhat blind. Someone posted a comping version of a 12 bar blues... and this guy got into a discussion about the I IV V organization etc... and never even noticed that the V7 chord was never played... but you felt as though it was.
    I guess my point is sometimes there is more.... or less to what something is.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Kris.

    I'm not talking about Rock and roll blues. light strings, bending, rock pentatonics, cowboy chords etc...

    Generally the blues with jazz... are just use of Blue notes, and harmony, (chords) that are derived from blue notes. More from the gospel blues direction. Jazz blues.... not rock blues.

    The feel... it's difficult to break down.... so feel is basically how one organizes time.... and how they organize the attacks and articulations.

    Personally... the difference in feel, rhythmically, is how the swing aspect is played. Swing is about the breakdown of the triplet.

    Straight western swing, bluegrass etc... is straight. The phrasing is very mechanical, the breakdown is not stretched out. Don't just think or hear solos.... hear comping or rhythm section feel. Patterns are longer, comping phrases are longer and the patterns also have patterns.

    You can have a 16 bar phrase with repeating 4 bar patterns that have slight differences that also have a pattern.
    And then how one can organize the harmony, comping or soloing using that rhythmic feel.
    Or as could be with Take the A train... 8 bar phrases... I'll make vid asap.

    It's all good, no wrong... but different.

    You can imply a blue note and actually never play it. I remember years ago on this forum, I use to have heated discussions with this player, a straight player, very good player... but somewhat blind. Someone posted a comping version of a 12 bar blues... and this guy got into a discussion about the I IV V organization etc... and never even noticed that the V7 chord was never played... but you felt as though it was.
    I guess my point is sometimes there is more.... or less to what something is.
    Thank You Reg,
    I thought about guitar blues feel like that:

  7. #56

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    Jazz Masters:

  8. #57

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    I am playing around with diminished and augmented. Where might you use them in this tune for comping and or soloing?

  9. #58

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    Well, over the D7#11 you could play:

    The wholetone scale (D E F# G# Bb C D)
    The Lydian Augmented scale (D E F# G# A B C D). This is really A melodic minor from D.

    Over the unaltered D7 in the bridge you could play:

    The whole-half diminished scale (D Eb F Gb Ab A B C D) to get a b9 sound, if you think it suits.

    Over the G7b9 at the end of the bridge:

    The whole-half diminished scale (G Ab Bb B C# D E F G)

    Some versions end with 2 bars of C6 but some have a Dm7-G7 turnaround. You could maybe use the G wholetone scale there to get a G7#5 sound.

    (That's probably it, you don't want to overdo it. Doubtless someone will introduce all sorts of triads and other tricks derived from these scales but I'll leave that to them ).

    If this is too simple for you, try Jens Larsen's video site. He's got lots of stuff on diminished and augmented 'secrets' :-) Jens Larsen
    - YouTube

  10. #59

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    Thanks and do you think of this when you are playing or do you hear it/sing it. eg do you think wholetone scale over the D7 or do you hear/sing the b9?

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez
    Thanks and do you think of this when you are playing or do you hear it/sing it. eg do you think wholetone scale over the D7 or do you hear/sing the b9?
    I've already thought of it in the sense I know that those options work. When I come to a chord I'm usually thinking what I'll do over it, like A mel for the D7#11. I never work out exactly what I'll do because it destroys spontaneity. But I know what notes sound good, I know to put some emphasis on the #11 note, etc etc.

    I tried the wholetone over the D7#11 and found the sound repetitive after a while but still used it. Also the D alt (Eb mel) worked too.

    Same with the other chords. I don't sing them but I do know exactly how a B, A or D is going to make the C chord sound, for instance. Over the Dm7-G7-C I know I can use some sort of generic phrase that ends up on the C chord; it doesn't have to match the chords exactly.

    When I was playing the straight D7 I was at the 10th fret, I think, and automatically went to the Eb and ran down a diminished arpeggio. Luckily it worked :-)

    The G7b9 is in the lead sheet anyway (the melody note's an Ab) so that was more obvious. That called either for a diminished scale or arpeggio or just a straight G7 idea with the Ab thrown in. F melodic minor works very well too for a b9. And there was also always the option of the altered scale.

    I've played the tune so many times now the options are pretty well ingrained; I feel confident just launching into it and going for it. I mean, since all these tunes often repeat the same chord sequences, especially swing numbers, after a while it becomes second nature. But I'll still try things out to make sure.

    This is why I prefer playing tunes to exercises. After a while you get a nose for what will work best over a specific tune.

    I'd thoroughly recommend recording your practice if you're not already doing so. No one else needs to hear it and you'd be amazed at what you discover listening back to it. After a while it all becomes part of you.

  12. #61

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    For all beginers players:
    Do not think too much about scales.
    Most important scale in jazz is melodic minor I think.
    Concentrate on using this scale over Take The A changes:
    a min melodic,d min melodic,Ab min melodic,g min melodic,c# min melodic
    there are:
    a min melodic over D7b5 or D7#11
    d min melodic/or d dorian/ over dm7
    Ab min melodic over G7/can be altered/
    g min melodic over gm7
    C# min melodic over C7/with alteration/...
    Creat 8th solos using this scale with nice melodies and nice phrasing.
    Great piano video but can be adopted for guitar:

  13. #62

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    Don't think too much about scales.
    Think about lots of melodic minor scales!

    (gggomez wants to know about diminished/augmented sounds)

    I find with melodic minor that you have to be careful with the #6 and #7 sounds. They don't automatically sound good everywhere.

  14. #63

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    I have one beginer sudent,that he know probaly more than me about scales but practicaly he don not know how to use them .
    So my sugestion is to learn more about one scale first/melodic minor/.
    This scale has everything if you want to creat nice solos not only at beginers levels.
    I recomend:
    Barry Galbraith "Daily Exercises in the melodic & harmonic minor modes" and Emily Remler Edu videos.

  15. #64

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    It's like I was told many years ago...better to know 5 things and really KNOW them than to KNOW OF 50 things.

    (but for jazz, if you're gonna know something outside the good old major scale, melodic minor is where it's at...at least know how to access it's sounds, even if you can't run the scale up and down the neck)

  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It's like I was told many years ago...better to know 5 things and really KNOW them than to KNOW OF 50 things.

    (but for jazz, if you're gonna know something outside the good old major scale, melodic minor is where it's at...at least know how to access it's sounds, even if you can't run the scale up and down the neck)
    Very near consensus outside of guitar-specific discussions.

  17. #66

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    There are a lot of patterns,licks with minor melodic in books or on youtube played by top musicians .
    So how to use it in good way is no so simple.Learn patterns,practise licks in every key,adopt to the style of your playing... it take years.
    what's a hard work...
    My first expierience with this scale was years ago when I started to transcribe and analyse 2 5 1 progressions. It was in 70's.
    ...and the next step - modes of melodic minor....
    Best
    Kris

  18. #67

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    melodic minors
    I'm not disagreeing

    (It's why I prefer A mel to D wholetone over D7#11)

  19. #68

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    By the way, I have a joke for you, saw it yesterday.

    Did you hear about the drummer who gave all his daughters the same name?

    Anna 1, Anna 2, Anna 3...

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    By the way, I have a joke for you, saw it yesterday.

    Did you hear about the drummer who gave all his daughters the same name?

    Anna 1, Anna 2, Anna 3...
    About jazz guitarists...:-)
    A 2 , A 5 , A 1

  21. #70

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    I used to live in a Flat 5. My jazzy friends thought it was very funny :-)

  22. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea there is a balance between playing, practicing and then actually talking about the music. Very few can just play... very few.

    So maybe a question... when we look at Take the A train... what do you think, what's your process to becoming aware of the tune how to perform etc...

    The Form is pretty straight ahead, A A B A. 8 bar sections.

    So the melody is not so clear, it hints at a few different directions.

    Personally I either play or hear the tune as a Blues or a jazz pop tune.

    The blues seems more common approach, but the I VI II V pop approach works.

    The A section is basically an eight bar blues, and the B section finally goes to the IV chord.

    The difference for me is how I approach the II chord in the A sections and how I approach that chord in the B section (both D7)

    So I either hear the D7 as a sub of some type, in the "A" section of, sub of A- the VI- chord .... or a V of II....anyway the reason I'm bring this up is because, personally how I hear the changes.... what type of function I hear the chord as having opens different doors of improvisation.

    I'll post something later and show the differences...

    Thanks for comments, and looking forward to becoming part of thread again.
    Hey reg. Would be interested in hearing these "different takes" on it if you have time. Thanks.

  23. #72

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    Very nice 3/4 version:


  24. #73

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  25. #74

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  26. #75

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  27. #76

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    Thanks for that Wes track, Kris. I was looking for it and couldn't find it, I don't know why! But somewhere there's got to be a better quality recording...

  28. #77

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    Only a few days until the Paris concert is released


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  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    I really like this. Maybe because it's so relaxed (and I'm so old)

    Thanks for posting.

  30. #79

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    This is absolutely worth watching. Drugs etc at about 15.00 but the whole thing is top-notch viewing.


  31. #80

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    Could not emulate my inspired recording from the other day but gotta get something down so here we go warts and all maiden voyage song of the month



    Love to hear thought on what my next steps for improvement should be.




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  32. #81

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    Well done, Gomez, not easy, it it? And brave of you to bare all, so to speak. You look like a solid guy.

    Well, it seems to me that you're a bit limited as to what note choices you have in your head. I think you should probably start doing it more slowly to begin with for practice.

    Over the C chord, you have the whole of the C scale to play with at the beginning, both at the the open and 3rd position, not that you'll need it. Placing emphasis on the 6 (A), M7 (B), and 9 (D), will help too. Keep going at it till you're fluent over that. A few simple notes will do.

    Then, over that D7#11, I'd personally play A melodic minor. It looks as though you were only using a couple of notes so you need to enlarge on that. You have the whole scale from, say, the A on the 4th string, 7th fret, upwards. That's A B C D E F# G# A B C etc. It really just spans the Am chord at the 5th position. Again, you should get familiar with that. Use it till you're happy to play any note or line with those notes. See what notes, or combination of notes, sounds good to you.

    The Dm7 - G7 - C is just a 2-5-1 and a simple but effective phrase will do it. Again, play around with it till something works for you. Diatonic with a few passing notes is good enough. Just so long as get back to a chord tone of C! Don't mess with altered sounds till you definitely know what you're doing, which will probably happen soon enough.

    With the other chords, F and the ordinary D7, it's the same. You have all positions of the F - 1st, 5th, 8th. Remember you're in the key of C if you make lines. Try to use more than two strings. At least three, and four is even better. It opens up your sound.

    For the D7 use an Am chord as a guide and play the Dorian, which is like C scale with the F's all sharp, and you'll be fine.

    For a practice tip: play just one chord (like the D7#11, F or D7) for a few minutes as a backing and play on it till you're familiar. Otherwise you'll only be used to them flashing by and not really have time to understand them.

    Keep it simple till you loosen up. That means doing it over and over till you've got it. Try not to play by rote, i.e. just repeating memorised lines. Improvising is walking without a safety net; it's dangerous, but you get used to it. And the more you do it the easier (and better) it gets.

    Lastly, don't forget it's far better to play something simple really well than to try to be flash and mess it up. If you overstretch yourself and fail you'll lose confidence. Keep it simple and you'll make headway a lot more quickly.

    All the best, hope that helps.

  33. #82

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    Great thanks Ragman. Really appreciate you putting the time in. Will work through your post.

    just got home from a jazz lesson which was really great. Will be interesting to see how much I can improve on this. Think I will keep revisiting through out the year.

    This has been a tremendous process. So wrapped I know the head of another tune and a starting point for the next chapter of the journey.


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  34. #83

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    For beginers only:
    Guitar is most difficult instrument...I think.
    You can play the same note at different places of fretboard...so why I practise 6 houers a day...

    In my opinion before playing jazz standards every serious beginer player need to learn basic jazz language.
    When I was very beginer I played/tried solos only on blues scale or simply pentatonic-because I heard/in my head/ only these scales.
    I tried to play long lines using simply scales.I played over simply blues forms.
    After this time I started to practise with Aebersold books/cd with examles/251 progressions.
    You have to know what you can play over major chords,minor chords,251 progressions etc.
    Not only the right notes...but also licks,phrases I mean jazz lines.
    You have to build you own jazz vocablulary.
    It must be in good time and good rhythm.Time and rhythm is most important for me.
    Thinking 8th notes in solo improvisation.
    There are my few suggestions for beginer players.
    Best
    Kris

  35. #84

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    I like this version:

  36. #85

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    Great :

  37. #86

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    Gomez wrote
    Love to hear thought on what my next steps for improvement should be.
    Thanks Gomez for posting your video. I like it.
    I noticed in your solo that you end your line on the first count of the 4th bar.(1.00)
    Then start a new line and end it on the the first count of the 8th bar.(1.07)
    Then start a new line and end it on the the first count of the 12th bar.(1.13)
    etc. etc.
    It might gives you support during the solo where you are in the song.

    Try to end your lines somewhere else and/ or make your lines shorter.
    That could make you feel the song stronger so you can feel more free to start and end your phrases where you want.
    (Always happy to make a video if wanted)
    Succes.

    Hans

  38. #87

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    Terrific Hans thank you. Really appreciate that, yes can hear it.


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  39. #88

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    This song didn't come easy for me but it's good for me to struggle sometimes.
    Thanks Kris, for taking the time to provide some guidance. I'm still digesting your examples.


  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    This song didn't come easy for me but it's good for me to struggle sometimes.
    Thanks Kris, for taking the time to provide some guidance. I'm still digesting your examples.

    Hi Gramps,
    Very good take.
    Chord melody style playing at the head-very nice.
    Nice solo-I am hearing what you play about/you are building your jazz vocablulary/.I like it.
    Just one small sugestion about 8th/I hear triplet thinking - It can be ok but experiment also with straigh 8th/.
    I know it is not easy because of backing track.
    Congrats!!!
    Jazzingly
    Kris

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    This song didn't come easy for me but it's good for me to struggle sometimes.
    Thanks Kris, for taking the time to provide some guidance. I'm still digesting your examples.

    Go Gramps. Really liked some of those chords. You have a cool relaxed feel.


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  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    Hi gggomez,
    You asked for advise from us on your performance but I'm reluctant to throw out suggestions because I assume your instructor has a path for you.

    What are you working on in your lessons?
    Thanks Gramps.

    I had me first session. It was a wonderful experience. This is him on bass


    We worked on:

    - avoiding the route and highlighting the 3rd and the 7th;
    - time - metronome on 2 and 4 and then on 4 only;
    - time - playing the melody but changing up its rhythm and not being robotically on the beat all the time so floating around the beat but of course always being in time;
    - harmony playing the melody and then where I could in the spaces play the bass notes then the bass note and the 7th, 3rd etc;
    - tone - playing slow and focusing on making each note being in time and beautiful whilst being aware of being in a relaxed state.

  43. #92

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    gggomez,

    You might think about making an effort to find some ii V I licks that catch your ear then apply them in all the songs you play.

    This might be a good place to start because it teaches a concept that you can apply to a lot of things. Listen to the lick at 5:30 for a really simple lick that sounds good in a lot of situations.



    Good luck.

  44. #93

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    This is the old trick, to move the ii up a m3 to iv (i.e. Dm - Fm) as a sub for the V. It's very effective and gives you a b9 sound (not a fully altered sound).

    If you don't want to just repeat the lick then you need to use the melodic minor over the iv. And it nearly always resolves very neatly into the M7.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    If you don't want to just repeat the lick then you need to use the melodic minor over the iv. And it nearly always resolves very neatly into the M7.
    OTOH, repeating the line might set up a motif that can be used to lead into the next phrase. There is no right way. The more options and ideas the better and delving into melodic minor is something I need to work on more.

    Note to gggomez: Either way I find I get a better understanding of a lick when I think of it as a concept I can apply to all of my playing and for me (I'm very slow) it just takes weeks of thinking and trying the concept over everything. Some times it works, sometimes not so much but often you'll run across small revelations that add a piece to the bigger puzzle.
    Last edited by Gramps; 01-29-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    OTOH, repeating the line might set up a motif that can be used to lead into the next phrase.
    Yes, it doesn't always have to resolve to a major. Otoh, it's a b9 sound so it probably sounds like it should :-)

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    This is the old trick, to move the ii up a m3 to iv (i.e. Dm - Fm) as a sub for the V. It's very effective and gives you a b9 sound (not a fully altered sound).

    If you don't want to just repeat the lick then you need to use the melodic minor over the iv. And it nearly always resolves very neatly into the M7.

    There is another tick on 251:
    dm7- F arpegio
    G7 - Ab arpegio
    CMaj7 - C arpegio

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    There is another tick on 251:
    dm7- F arpegio
    G7 - Ab arpegio
    CMaj7 - C arpegio
    Why are you telling me? I think it was someone else...

    Anyway, M7 is better. AbM7 over G7 was George Benson's favorite.

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Why are you telling me? I think it was someone else...

    Anyway, M7 is better. AbM7 over G7 was George Benson's favorite.


    why?
    You told about one trick and I told about another.That's all....
    It is also info for forum members.

  50. #99

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    Ok, it's the end of the month. I'm still hoping M-ster submits a track or two.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    Ok, it's the end of the month. I'm still hoping M-ster submits a track or two.
    Me too, we're waiting...