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  1. #51

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    Reminder to self. Wow 9 Jan back at work gotta get my first song of the month clip up. Get that head and the changes down by end of the week.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

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  3. #52

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    For interested in guitarists.
    There is one example how I practise single line solo over Take The A changes.
    Slow tempo/90/ and one chorus. All exercise I play/try straight 16th.
    It is good for time,phrasing,picking/relaxing right hand/,scales and progressins .
    Keeping straight 16th it is not so easy /I mean need practising/.
    Best
    kris
    Style-slow bossa:

    https://app.box.com/s/uh8r10gaxg8vlcrsb946874omiprymjs
    Last edited by kris; 01-09-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #53

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    Was working on this last night. I have been incorporating into my practice, especially when learning heads, the Mick Goodrich Advancing Guitarist idea of playing on a single string.

    Really interesting the different feel and dynamic exploration of a tune. Certain notes really pop, for me the song really came alive, much more than when playing in one position. You can then take that dynamic to a simpler way to get your fingers around the tune.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  5. #54

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    Yea... this thread might need some help... the point of this thread is to have a place to post examples of playing through standards and get feedback... positive feedback.

    The point is to help learn the tune and get insights from different players. It doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.

    I'll start getting back involved... with M-ster's OK.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... this thread might need some help... the point of this thread is to have a place to post examples of playing through standards and get feedback... positive feedback.

    The point is to help learn the tune and get insights from different players. It doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.

    I'll start getting back involved... with M-ster's OK.
    +1 for Reg...
    I am going home.
    Best Regards
    kris

  7. #56

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    Reg, it'd be good to have you aboard for these, when you can.

    Yeah, I think the positive feedback is a big part, maybe the biggest. I'd also say don't be afraid to ask questions of players, too...like "Hey, I like what you play at :23, can you tell me what's going on there?" Obviously, we can dissect the whole tune too, if people want. But really it's about getting those recordings out there. It's an "audio diary."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #57

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    I think this thread is ok...different levels of players and different thinking-it is a standard.

  9. #58

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    Yea there is a balance between playing, practicing and then actually talking about the music. Very few can just play... very few.

    So maybe a question... when we look at Take the A train... what do you think, what's your process to becoming aware of the tune how to perform etc...

    The Form is pretty straight ahead, A A B A. 8 bar sections.

    So the melody is not so clear, it hints at a few different directions.

    Personally I either play or hear the tune as a Blues or a jazz pop tune.

    The blues seems more common approach, but the I VI II V pop approach works.

    The A section is basically an eight bar blues, and the B section finally goes to the IV chord.

    The difference for me is how I approach the II chord in the A sections and how I approach that chord in the B section (both D7)

    So I either hear the D7 as a sub of some type, in the "A" section of, sub of A- the VI- chord .... or a V of II....anyway the reason I'm bring this up is because, personally how I hear the changes.... what type of function I hear the chord as having opens different doors of improvisation.

    I'll post something later and show the differences...

    Thanks for comments, and looking forward to becoming part of thread again.

  10. #59

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    We talk about A- 8 bars section.
    "Personally I either play or hear the tune as a Blues or a jazz pop tune."
    "The A section is basically an eight bar blues"
    why?
    Girl from Ipanema/key of F/ part A has similar type of progression /I do not hear /play as 8 bars blues/.
    I know there are differnt styles but I can also play Take the A as bossa.
    Thanks
    kris

  11. #60

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    The A-part as an 8-bar blues..... hmmm, interesting. I don’t see it, but that’s probably just me. An 8 bar blues in what key?
    Jazz, Funk, Soul & Boogaloo: My group | Listen to Hip Jazz a Go Go! | Jazz, Soul, Blues: Eva La Voix

  12. #61

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    Yes.. OK so a latin or Bossa can also be a blues.... Personally what makes a blues... is I to IV.... or as in A train... Would be C to F (key of C)

    Generally I take that basic chord movement and hear... or think, Tonic and subdominant. ... I can hear the D7 functioning as subdominant or the IV chord.
    And then when the bridge goes to F... it somewhat reinforces the Blues.... OK can also be standard swing dance pop tun also.

    My point is the tune has options as far as to how one can play. As Kris said Similar changes as Girl from and Desafinado and playing typical latin montunos or rhythmic figures... performing as Latin Jazz, is great and personally one of my favorite approaches to performing almost any jazz tune. I love playing latin, Brazilian grooves... Hell most of the time at gigs I'll go into some type of latin feel for Blues feel standards... add II Vs or sus chord patterns, groove montunos Helps break up solos sections.

    The other think I like to do... is find blues in any tune. It's just another reference, a way to perform tunes. And I rarely find audiences that can't relate. Yea, it not hip and generally when musicians get together... they generally want to perform like the audience is all musicians etc... Anyway... just trying to get us thinking about how one could approach the tune.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Jay View Post
    The A-part as an 8-bar blues..... hmmm, interesting. I don’t see it, but that’s probably just me. An 8 bar blues in what key?

    Hi Little Jay,
    Maybe there is a 8-bar blues in good key....I like it:

  14. #63

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    I like the blues feel very much...I saw George Benson playing the blues over Rythm changes.
    Thanks Reg for very interesting view.
    sorry for the clip with jazz dance---it is just for making good atmosphere.
    jazzingly
    Kris
    Last edited by kris; 01-11-2018 at 01:10 PM.

  15. #64

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    I like the idea of D7 as a sub for Am7 (1-6-2-5-1) but I don't see it as a blues. An 8-bar blues usually has IV much earlier on. Going to IV for the bridge is pretty standard. It's more a swing tune with a sort of loose bluesy feel.

    I'm surprised no version I've heard has played the F to D7 in the bridge as |F / E7 Eb7 | D7 |. I was going to try that but never got round to it.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... this thread might need some help... the point of this thread is to have a place to post examples of playing through standards and get feedback... positive feedback.

    The point is to help learn the tune and get insights from different players. It doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.

    I'll start getting back involved... with M-ster's OK.
    You don't need my okay, Reg. Post away, sir!

    (Thought I posted that yesterday, but I don't see it in the thread.)

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster View Post
    You don't need my okay, Reg. Post away, sir!

    (Thought I posted that yesterday, but I don't see it in the thread.)
    It WAS there...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-11-2018 at 03:43 PM.

  18. #67

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    A number of posts appear to have been deleted, maybe the mods intervened?

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    A number of posts appear to have been deleted, maybe the mods intervened?
    That's what it was. Accidentally swept out with the rest probably...

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    A number of posts appear to have been deleted, maybe the mods intervened?
    I think there was too hot ...


  21. #70

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    Fresh starts are always a good thing. I found myself dreaming about how to approach this song last night. We'll see how that pans out. (dreams can be deceptive sometimes)

  22. #71

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    I've actually dreamed cool things musically...the trick is writing them down, as I never remember them

    As for this tune, Gramps, I'm not sure where you're at with it, but helping you out would certainly get this thread back in the right spirit.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I've actually dreamed cool things musically...the trick is writing them down, as I never remember them

    As for this tune, Gramps, I'm not sure where you're at with it, but helping you out would certainly get this thread back in the right spirit.
    I've been sick for the past 2 weeks so haven't done much but sleep but am feeling better now and started with melody, changes and CM version. Next I'll start working on solo. (The whole tone thing over II7 is new to me and I need to play with it a bit)

    I'll post again as things progress.

  24. #73

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    Question for mr. Reg:
    We are talking about blues feel over standard jazz progressions so where are bendings,light strings etc
    Most of jazz guitarsits use hard strings or hard tension set up.
    How do you mean blues feel?
    I am big fan of Scof...sometimes I think he is a reall blues player/ look BB.King/.
    I've heard Scof interpretation of ballad with a lot of string bendings used in typical blues/not jazzy blues/.
    I talked about the same to Mike Stern two months ago.Mike said - "my playing is from the heart"..." I feel bluesy today"...
    I like it.It is so natural.
    Thanks
    Kris

  25. #74

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    Hey Kris.

    I'm not talking about Rock and roll blues. light strings, bending, rock pentatonics, cowboy chords etc...

    Generally the blues with jazz... are just use of Blue notes, and harmony, (chords) that are derived from blue notes. More from the gospel blues direction. Jazz blues.... not rock blues.

    The feel... it's difficult to break down.... so feel is basically how one organizes time.... and how they organize the attacks and articulations.

    Personally... the difference in feel, rhythmically, is how the swing aspect is played. Swing is about the breakdown of the triplet.

    Straight western swing, bluegrass etc... is straight. The phrasing is very mechanical, the breakdown is not stretched out. Don't just think or hear solos.... hear comping or rhythm section feel. Patterns are longer, comping phrases are longer and the patterns also have patterns.

    You can have a 16 bar phrase with repeating 4 bar patterns that have slight differences that also have a pattern.
    And then how one can organize the harmony, comping or soloing using that rhythmic feel.
    Or as could be with Take the A train... 8 bar phrases... I'll make vid asap.

    It's all good, no wrong... but different.

    You can imply a blue note and actually never play it. I remember years ago on this forum, I use to have heated discussions with this player, a straight player, very good player... but somewhat blind. Someone posted a comping version of a 12 bar blues... and this guy got into a discussion about the I IV V organization etc... and never even noticed that the V7 chord was never played... but you felt as though it was.
    I guess my point is sometimes there is more.... or less to what something is.

  26. #75

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    Thanks.
    Last edited by kris; 01-12-2018 at 12:54 PM.

  27. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey Kris.

    I'm not talking about Rock and roll blues. light strings, bending, rock pentatonics, cowboy chords etc...

    Generally the blues with jazz... are just use of Blue notes, and harmony, (chords) that are derived from blue notes. More from the gospel blues direction. Jazz blues.... not rock blues.

    The feel... it's difficult to break down.... so feel is basically how one organizes time.... and how they organize the attacks and articulations.

    Personally... the difference in feel, rhythmically, is how the swing aspect is played. Swing is about the breakdown of the triplet.

    Straight western swing, bluegrass etc... is straight. The phrasing is very mechanical, the breakdown is not stretched out. Don't just think or hear solos.... hear comping or rhythm section feel. Patterns are longer, comping phrases are longer and the patterns also have patterns.

    You can have a 16 bar phrase with repeating 4 bar patterns that have slight differences that also have a pattern.
    And then how one can organize the harmony, comping or soloing using that rhythmic feel.
    Or as could be with Take the A train... 8 bar phrases... I'll make vid asap.

    It's all good, no wrong... but different.

    You can imply a blue note and actually never play it. I remember years ago on this forum, I use to have heated discussions with this player, a straight player, very good player... but somewhat blind. Someone posted a comping version of a 12 bar blues... and this guy got into a discussion about the I IV V organization etc... and never even noticed that the V7 chord was never played... but you felt as though it was.
    I guess my point is sometimes there is more.... or less to what something is.
    Great post.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey Kris.

    I'm not talking about Rock and roll blues. light strings, bending, rock pentatonics, cowboy chords etc...

    Generally the blues with jazz... are just use of Blue notes, and harmony, (chords) that are derived from blue notes. More from the gospel blues direction. Jazz blues.... not rock blues.

    The feel... it's difficult to break down.... so feel is basically how one organizes time.... and how they organize the attacks and articulations.

    Personally... the difference in feel, rhythmically, is how the swing aspect is played. Swing is about the breakdown of the triplet.

    Straight western swing, bluegrass etc... is straight. The phrasing is very mechanical, the breakdown is not stretched out. Don't just think or hear solos.... hear comping or rhythm section feel. Patterns are longer, comping phrases are longer and the patterns also have patterns.

    You can have a 16 bar phrase with repeating 4 bar patterns that have slight differences that also have a pattern.
    And then how one can organize the harmony, comping or soloing using that rhythmic feel.
    Or as could be with Take the A train... 8 bar phrases... I'll make vid asap.

    It's all good, no wrong... but different.

    You can imply a blue note and actually never play it. I remember years ago on this forum, I use to have heated discussions with this player, a straight player, very good player... but somewhat blind. Someone posted a comping version of a 12 bar blues... and this guy got into a discussion about the I IV V organization etc... and never even noticed that the V7 chord was never played... but you felt as though it was.
    I guess my point is sometimes there is more.... or less to what something is.
    Thank You Reg,
    I thought about guitar blues feel like that:

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    For interested in guitarists.
    There is one example how I practise single line solo over Take The A changes.
    Slow tempo/90/ and one chorus. All exercise I play/try straight 16th.
    It is good for time,phrasing,picking/relaxing right hand/,scales and progressins .
    Keeping straight 16th it is not so easy /I mean need practising/.
    Best
    kris
    Style-slow bossa:

    https://app.box.com/s/uh8r10gaxg8vlcrsb946874omiprymjs
    This is really cool kris. There is a lot of interesting harmony happening.

    When I started messing with the song I found I couldn't play it as fast as I thought I should. Using a slow (115bpm) bossa track for learning has helped relieve some of my frustration with speed and it's fun to just find a relaxed groove for learning.

    Thanks. This really helped me.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    PKirk goes pretty heavily into blues around 1:30 in his track and it sound great. The more I listen to his solo the more I'm impressed.
    PKirk is quietly one of the better players round these parts, imho.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  31. #80

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    Jazz Masters:

  32. #81

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    YEA Kris... Love Scofield... who doesn't. Always saying the right things. And yes he has his own blues feel. He does really get behind the beat and makes rhythm sections... stay in the pocket. Sometimes.... even slow down.

    Chaka... haha, I named one of my dogs Rufus. I bought that album... still probably around somewhere.

    And yes...Mr b... Pkirk is great musician, I always dig his posts.

    Nice version ragman... You might try and organize the spatial thing different, the physical shape of the performance. 6 min. is a long time. I like the use of 6ths... maybe use them at a target point to help shape... You have a beginning... and at some place a turning point, by that I mean, now your heading towards the end. Or not, nothing wrong with floating along.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Nice version ragman... You might try and organize the spatial thing different, the physical shape of the performance. 6 min. is a long time. I like the use of 6ths... maybe use them at a target point to help shape... You have a beginning... and at some place a turning point, by that I mean, now your heading towards the end. Or not, nothing wrong with floating along.
    Thanks for your comments. I can't say I thought about it, just played it as it came out. I know it turned out long at 6 mins but I didn't want to stop :-)

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    This is really cool kris. There is a lot of interesting harmony happening.

    When I started messing with the song I found I couldn't play it as fast as I thought I should. Using a slow (115bpm) bossa track for learning has helped relieve some of my frustration with speed and it's fun to just find a relaxed groove for learning.

    Thanks. This really helped me.
    Thanks a lot
    I will send more examples next week.
    jazzingly
    kris

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    Thanks a lot
    I will send more examples next week.
    jazzingly
    kris
    Thanks kris! Do you think you can demonstrate the ideas in 1/8th notes?

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    Hi ragman1.

    I hope you don't mind me posting but I really like this track because it references standard swing phrasing to me. I know you're always trying to play something different and as an artist that's the job. On the other hand referencing your ideas against a genres 'cliches' just makes it sound like jazz to me.

    I really like this. Thanks for posting.
    Not in the slightest, I'm glad you're back and feeling better. And I'm glad you like it!

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    YEA Kris... Love Scofield... who doesn't. Always saying the right things. And yes he has his own blues feel. He does really get behind the beat and makes rhythm sections... stay in the pocket. Sometimes.... even slow down.

    Chaka... haha, I named one of my dogs Rufus. I bought that album... still probably around somewhere.

    And yes...Mr b... Pkirk is great musician, I always dig his posts.

    Nice version ragman... You might try and organize the spatial thing different, the physical shape of the performance. 6 min. is a long time. I like the use of 6ths... maybe use them at a target point to help shape... You have a beginning... and at some place a turning point, by that I mean, now your heading towards the end. Or not, nothing wrong with floating along.

    Thanks Reg for your nice post.
    I've found great text last night.
    I think it will be usefull for all of us:

    What No One Tells You About Learning Jazz Improvisation | jazzadvice.com

    Anyway I am waiting for your pesentation about 8 bars blues.

    All The Best
    kris

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    Thanks kris! Do you think you can demonstrate the ideas in 1/8th notes?
    Ofcourse.
    8th and triplet 8th exercises at slow tempos...:-)
    Best
    Kris

  39. #88

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    There are different exercises with straight notes.
    only 16 bars of "take the A" - this is only conception what I am doing with quoter notes,8th,8th triplets,and 16th.
    Changing every two bars:


    https://app.box.com/s/8v78i179zz8wotnb8cq73h2h1upjxntl

    https://app.box.com/s/8yzaajhe3of7blfy0adwum8hkd626gcm

    https://app.box.com/s/5acd17jebohbez7r67tjrm5seky83e79

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris View Post
    There are different exercises with straight notes.
    only 16 bars of "take the A" - this is only conception what I am doing with quoter notes,8th,8th triplets,and 16th.
    Changing every two bars:


    https://app.box.com/s/8v78i179zz8wotnb8cq73h2h1upjxntl

    https://app.box.com/s/8yzaajhe3of7blfy0adwum8hkd626gcm

    https://app.box.com/s/5acd17jebohbez7r67tjrm5seky83e79
    Thank you for your generosity kris. I have tomorrow off work. Perfect timing.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
    Thank you for your generosity kris. I have tomorrow off work. Perfect timing.
    Have a nice guitar practise day.
    Best
    Kris

  42. #91

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    What's a thread...?
    it's so quiet after " deep cleaning" and over 3000 looks in 2 weeks...nice!
    good for jazz...:-)
    jazzingly yours
    kris

  43. #92

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    I am playing around with diminished and augmented. Where might you use them in this tune for comping and or soloing?
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  44. #93

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    Well, over the D7#11 you could play:

    The wholetone scale (D E F# G# Bb C D)
    The Lydian Augmented scale (D E F# G# A B C D). This is really A melodic minor from D.

    Over the unaltered D7 in the bridge you could play:

    The whole-half diminished scale (D Eb F Gb Ab A B C D) to get a b9 sound, if you think it suits.

    Over the G7b9 at the end of the bridge:

    The whole-half diminished scale (G Ab Bb B C# D E F G)

    Some versions end with 2 bars of C6 but some have a Dm7-G7 turnaround. You could maybe use the G wholetone scale there to get a G7#5 sound.

    (That's probably it, you don't want to overdo it. Doubtless someone will introduce all sorts of triads and other tricks derived from these scales but I'll leave that to them ).

    If this is too simple for you, try Jens Larsen's video site. He's got lots of stuff on diminished and augmented 'secrets' :-) Jens Larsen
    - YouTube

  45. #94

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    Thanks and do you think of this when you are playing or do you hear it/sing it. eg do you think wholetone scale over the D7 or do you hear/sing the b9?
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by gggomez View Post
    Thanks and do you think of this when you are playing or do you hear it/sing it. eg do you think wholetone scale over the D7 or do you hear/sing the b9?
    I've already thought of it in the sense I know that those options work. When I come to a chord I'm usually thinking what I'll do over it, like A mel for the D7#11. I never work out exactly what I'll do because it destroys spontaneity. But I know what notes sound good, I know to put some emphasis on the #11 note, etc etc.

    I tried the wholetone over the D7#11 and found the sound repetitive after a while but still used it. Also the D alt (Eb mel) worked too.

    Same with the other chords. I don't sing them but I do know exactly how a B, A or D is going to make the C chord sound, for instance. Over the Dm7-G7-C I know I can use some sort of generic phrase that ends up on the C chord; it doesn't have to match the chords exactly.

    When I was playing the straight D7 I was at the 10th fret, I think, and automatically went to the Eb and ran down a diminished arpeggio. Luckily it worked :-)

    The G7b9 is in the lead sheet anyway (the melody note's an Ab) so that was more obvious. That called either for a diminished scale or arpeggio or just a straight G7 idea with the Ab thrown in. F melodic minor works very well too for a b9. And there was also always the option of the altered scale.

    I've played the tune so many times now the options are pretty well ingrained; I feel confident just launching into it and going for it. I mean, since all these tunes often repeat the same chord sequences, especially swing numbers, after a while it becomes second nature. But I'll still try things out to make sure.

    This is why I prefer playing tunes to exercises. After a while you get a nose for what will work best over a specific tune.

    I'd thoroughly recommend recording your practice if you're not already doing so. No one else needs to hear it and you'd be amazed at what you discover listening back to it. After a while it all becomes part of you.

  47. #96

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    For all beginers players:
    Do not think too much about scales.
    Most important scale in jazz is melodic minor I think.
    Concentrate on using this scale over Take The A changes:
    a min melodic,d min melodic,Ab min melodic,g min melodic,c# min melodic
    there are:
    a min melodic over D7b5 or D7#11
    d min melodic/or d dorian/ over dm7
    Ab min melodic over G7/can be altered/
    g min melodic over gm7
    C# min melodic over C7/with alteration/...
    Creat 8th solos using this scale with nice melodies and nice phrasing.
    Great piano video but can be adopted for guitar:

  48. #97

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    Don't think too much about scales.
    Think about lots of melodic minor scales!

    (gggomez wants to know about diminished/augmented sounds)

    I find with melodic minor that you have to be careful with the #6 and #7 sounds. They don't automatically sound good everywhere.

  49. #98

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    I have one beginer sudent,that he know probaly more than me about scales but practicaly he don not know how to use them .
    So my sugestion is to learn more about one scale first/melodic minor/.
    This scale has everything if you want to creat nice solos not only at beginers levels.
    I recomend:
    Barry Galbraith "Daily Exercises in the melodic & harmonic minor modes" and Emily Remler Edu videos.

  50. #99

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    It's like I was told many years ago...better to know 5 things and really KNOW them than to KNOW OF 50 things.

    (but for jazz, if you're gonna know something outside the good old major scale, melodic minor is where it's at...at least know how to access it's sounds, even if you can't run the scale up and down the neck)
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  51. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    It's like I was told many years ago...better to know 5 things and really KNOW them than to KNOW OF 50 things.

    (but for jazz, if you're gonna know something outside the good old major scale, melodic minor is where it's at...at least know how to access it's sounds, even if you can't run the scale up and down the neck)
    Very near consensus outside of guitar-specific discussions.