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  1. #1

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    Our standard for July 2017 will be Caravan - by Juan Tizol and Duke Ellington (1936).

    Background:
    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (Caravan)

    If you're in the US, enjoy your Independence Day festivities!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    God, is that the one that goes at 100 mph? I think mine will be a sedate caravan!

    Maybe with belly-dancing. Not by me :-)

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster View Post

    If you're in the US, enjoy your Independence Day festivities!
    Yes, enjoy, and don't forget that since 1783 it's all been your fault!

  5. #4

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    Caravan i lived in one for 5 months still not as good as Django,

    remember its Diminished kids, not 7b9 watch this space

  6. #5

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    [QUOTE=fuzzthebee;784797]I've chosen to do the funkified (lots of "jamming" type silliness):


    fuzzybee very cool like a lot, i would make the beginning a tad longer was just just getting into it and you launched, a good groove the drum/beat feels a pinch behind the beat, not criticism tidy up a pinch, remix it get it out there, boy, rename it avoiding royalties call it "A home on wheels" kidding really nice lines on geetar, hey no silliness there, if Grant green had done something like that people would go cool.

  7. #6

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    [QUOTE=fuzzthebee;784807]
    Quote Originally Posted by Durban View Post

    Hey, thanks. Funny, I had a 16 bar intro but I trimmed it down for the forum (didn't want to take up too much of people's time). I'm not sure how to tidy up the drums etc. I just used the Garageband robot drummer and a conga loop.
    i am a composer and budgets constraints prevent me using real players, at the mo, way back i would just say to my drummer hey just this here man , and hey presto,

    PC programms and apps i am not good with,

    what tempo is that track at??????

    just a couple of lo-rent ideas Jamey Aebersold backing slowed up/down, Amazing Slow downer cool for that & pitch stuff android maybe Mac,
    All i meant is the groove is ever so slightly behind the beat, hey i am being very picky. thats all not critism,

    Check REG532 he did a Misty as mamo you know Reg groove Uncle

  8. #7

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    whilst cooling one Errol Garner (incredible) playing Laura on BBC Jazz 1965 anyway i hear Oh my Goodness ...................
    i whizz over to my son, he says Dad did you hear that, i said yes, rewind YT, @ 1.47 as i heard a chromo diminished line travelling downwards, then a thought like my Daughter "I see I want " only my line is " i can hear i'll steal "

    Then remembered you guys Practical Standards Caravan , and thought you guys check it out and weave it into your Caravan, but make a game of it enjoy it. beautiful line, just modify it to suit. but that is the nucleus or a start point.




  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I've chosen to do the funkified thing, nice and easy (the Duke Ellington version I checked out was not fast at all). For simplicity, and because probably everybody plays it as such, I kept the form the same for the solo (actually, on the Ellington version they change to equal bars of C7 and Fm for the A section). So it's kind of just an idea rather than a finished product (lots of "jamming" type silliness):


    Man this is great...starts out so "Wes," then at the bridge it's got this smooth funk, almost hip hop kinda vibe. Cool shit.

    Those chords you play to harmonize the head on the second A are delicious, by the way.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  10. #9

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    I had a go at it:
    caravan.mp3 - Google Drive

    (used drum loops and played both bass and guitar).

  11. #10

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    Here's my late night take! Just having fun with a new Gretsch. Inspired by... you know who


  12. #11

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    Oh, you only like fast stuff! If you want fast, try this. If you can stand it :-)


  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I've chosen to do the funkified thing, nice and easy (the Duke Ellington version I checked out was not fast at all). For simplicity, and because probably everybody plays it as such, I kept the form the same for the solo (actually, on the Ellington version they change to equal bars of C7 and Fm for the A section). So it's kind of just an idea rather than a finished product (lots of "jamming" type silliness):

    Great take man.

    Yeah someone was trying to get me to do the Ellington solo changes on a trad gig. I could not deal with that haha.

    It's like Cotton Tail.. So many twists in those Ellington recordings... no one plays the tunes like he wrote them haha.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Thanks, Mr. B! Those chords, if anyone is interested, are basically an attempt to harmonize the melody with the h/w diminished scale (I chose that instead of the more Gypsy-sounding Mixo b9, b13), using alternating major (add #4), 7#9 and diminished maj7 chords:

    x.13.11.11.13.x (C7b9#11)
    x.13.14.14.14.x (C13b9)
    x.13.11.11.13.x (C7b9#11)
    x.7.8.8.8.x (C7#9)
    x.10.11.11.11.x (C7b9#11)
    x.13.11.11.13.x (C7b9#11)
    x.x.11.12.13.12 ((C7b9)
    x.7.8.8.8.x (C7#9)
    x.10.11.11.11.x (C7b9#11)

    Nice!

    Does anyone know what the hell is going on in this version at 0:40? Can't hear it right away (as with many of Duke's voicings) would need to sit down with it, but it is parallel I think?


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Strange....it won't play. In fact nobody's SoundCloud links will play, nor can I get them to play on the SoundCloud page.
    I had that problem. Try it on another browser without Adblock, Ghostery, or any of that stuff on it*.

    If it's not that then maybe check Flash and/or Java updates.

    *(In my case I was using Firefox with those two apps on it but it wouldn't play Soundcloud even after I'd disabled them. Maybe some digital residue or something. So I used Edge which was already on the machine with W10. Then no problem. On other sites you'll get ads but JGO Forum is thankfully free of them so it makes no difference. In any case, disabling things is tiresome).

  16. #15

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    another fast one:

  17. #16

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    bass/drums/guitar:

    Last edited by pkirk; 07-12-2017 at 11:05 PM.

  18. #17

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    I liked that. I don't think it's easy. Good bass and drums too

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Cool. Sounds like G dorian or C7 with 'natural extensions' (I can't, for the life of me, make out the bass) on the A section for the blowing. I would love to have heard his take on the extended C7b9 type sound, too.
    I think that's what you did, isn't it? Play over all the C7b9 variations? It's still tricky though. I think Wes was doing some simple slip-sliding there, like Bb maj up to B, etc.

    Bastard did it with his thumb, too. Really!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I've chosen to do the funkified thing, nice and easy (the Duke Ellington version I checked out was not fast at all). For simplicity, and because probably everybody plays it as such, I kept the form the same for the solo (actually, on the Ellington version they change to equal bars of C7 and Fm for the A section). So it's kind of just an idea rather than a finished product (lots of "jamming" type silliness):

    Yea I like that a lot. I will listen to more versions later. Can you share what you are using for your drums and overall recording. You get a nice organic sound.


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  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Thanks. For this I used Garageband - one of the r'n'b "drummers" (drum machine named "Rose"), a conga loop, sampled upright bass which I "played" on the computer keyboard. The guitar tracks were recorded directly into Garageband, using the available effects.
    Wow awesome ! I was hoping you would say garage band. I just started using it and it's pretty damn good. Wow you are really getting the most out of it. Computer keyboard bass , that makes me smile. I will need to keep exploring GB


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  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Didn't notice anything like what you mentioned, but he does a very cool augmented triad thing:

    A, Bb, D, F#, C, E, G#, followed by descending that tasty "altered-minus-the-b5" scale:
    Db, C, Bb, Ab, E, Eb, Db, C.

    To me, it sounds like a "simple" Gm vamp (6/9 with M7 or m7), plenty of G blues scale, followed by a bar or two of some kind of C7#5b9#9 etc. The Gm sounds tonic and doesn't reveal itself as a iim7 until the C7alt. At least that's how I hear it.

    As for me, I just tried to play h/w diminished.
    Have we seen this? Might clarify things a bit. I do notice there's a l-o-t of natural D's. Which doesn't seem to go with C7b9 or G dim. So I don't think the background is that at all. I think they're just playing a C7.


  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Thanks. For this I used Garageband - one of the r'n'b "drummers" (drum machine named "Rose"), a conga loop, sampled upright bass which I "played" on the computer keyboard. The guitar tracks were recorded directly into Garageband, using the available effects.
    Mmm. Can I stick you in my cupboard at home and bring you out when I need you? And probably borrow your electric guitar as well :-)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Still sounds like Gm to me. Wes is using loads of Gm "activity" and the piano is doing the classic dorian chord pattern (Bb/G, C/G, Dm/G, C/G). Yes it's a lot like C7(9,13), but here the strong beats have the F note. On the last A, after the bridge, they sound like they've gone C7, as you suggest.
    Well according to Barry Harris that it's all C dominant scale and F's don't matter - but I agree that Wes is focussing on a Gm sound on C7 here.

    It's something Charlie Christian did on dominants in minor keys - important minor of the dominant going to minor tonic, for instance Em on A7 going into Dm - listen to his solo on I Found a New Baby... Wes may have got the idea from there and run with the ball...

    An interesting approach to Caravan I hadn't really considered.... Thanks for flagging up this recording.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-18-2017 at 07:54 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Didn't notice anything like what you mentioned, but he does a very cool augmented triad thing:

    A, Bb, D, F#, C, E, G#, followed by descending that tasty "altered-minus-the-b5" scale:
    This lick pops up in a few of Wes's solos. Here's where I first heard it. 0:42. Also on Gm:



    It's whole tone on dominant, right? Neat trick.... Whole tone is just a short step away from melodic minor....



    Db, C, Bb, Ab, E, Eb, Db, C.
    This is, of course, the infamous Reg Minor on F - albeit without the F or the G

    F G Ab Bb C Db Eb E

    How Wes came up with that line is anyone's guess - the tetrachord H-W-H (E-Eb-Db-C) is a very common trope in jazz lines though, especially on the 5th like this.

    To me, it sounds like a "simple" Gm vamp (6/9 with M7 or m7), plenty of G blues scale, followed by a bar or two of some kind of C7#5b9#9 etc. The Gm sounds tonic and doesn't reveal itself as a iim7 until the C7alt. At least that's how I hear it.
    Needless to say one of the most important things to understand for an improviser is how one chordal sound can be used on another chord. ii/V is a classic one. IV on V7 is another. I on #IVm7b5 and so on (Some might understand these as chord subs, others might use scalic understanding.)

    Much of the sound of Wes's playing on dominants (to me) is the preferential use of those minor and major sounds on dominant sounds with a 4th/11th degree on the dominant - so Dm7, Fmaj7, Dm11 etc on G7 for instance. Basically he wants all dom7s to be 7sus chords! How 60's :-)

    Contrast this to Charlie Christians heavy use of the m6/m7b5 sound, or the use of melodic minor modes on the dominant etc...
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-18-2017 at 08:19 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Still sounds like Gm to me. Wes is using loads of Gm "activity" and the piano is doing the classic dorian chord pattern (Bb/G, C/G, Dm/G, C/G). Yes it's a lot like C7(9,13), but here the strong beats have the F note. On the last A, after the bridge, they sound like they've gone C7, as you suggest.
    Absolutely, it's unquestionably G melodic with little asides here and there, including your augmented thing. It's the repeated presence of the G mel - and its natural D not clashing with the background - that made me think C7. Plus it sounds like it :-)

  27. #26

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    Yo! I loved it. But it is bloody tricky. I mean you can't just play F harm all the time... but when you try something else it goes a bit funny - never mind six bars of C7? multiple times. And if I hit that Fm on time I quietly thank heavens above... and promptly forget what I'm supposed to be doing next :-)

    Actually, I've got couple more but I didn't want to hog the place. In due time

  28. #27

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    Okay, I hear what you say. I'll give it a shot.

    Oh god, does that mean, like, 12 bars of C7?????!!!

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    The F's I was referring to were in the piano chord pattern (Bb/G, C/G, Dm/G, C/G). I'm familiar with the concept you're talking about, however, I was suggesting the possibility that they weren't just playing Gm ideas on C7, but that the chart may have actually read "Gm7" or Gm or whatever.
    Gotcha.... Yes I agree quite possible....

    (But I think as other players will agree or have mentioned many times - playing around with that kind of Gm dorian style arpeggio on C7 and bits of it such as Gm7, Bbmaj7 etc... Kind of avoiding too much use of the E (leading note) - really gives the Wes sound to me... Everything sus!)

    As an aside - interestingly something I was told recently refers to Gospel vocal harmonisation in which everything is harmonised with the notes 1 2 3 4 5 6 of the scale in parallel with the melody to be harmonised. Obviously that results in V7sus - I and IV-I style cadences, and I wonder if that churchy/souly connection was there with Wes? The way that also links up with modal stuff is interesting too. Anyway, one for another thread.

    Thanks for this exploration BTW. I find this type of thing really interesting, checking out recordings for ideas and so on.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-21-2017 at 05:28 AM.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Wholetone on minor = phantom V

    In the Caravan example, it's possible he was transitioning from Gm ideas to Dbm ideas, and not thinking wholetone scale. He plays the Bb aug (GmMa7, C9#11) and then the C aug (DbmMa7, C7#5b9) but he does not go back to anything with a D note or F#, instead he plays the descending 6 note line (hard to call it "F" Reg minor without the F or the G), solidifying the #9, b9 sound (Db, C, Bb, Ab, E, Eb).

    Or - maybe he was just playing wholetone, transitioning to Reg minor.
    Yes, of course. There's so many possibilities by using 'phantom V.'

    Of course it's possible that your interpretation is how was thinking, but the whole tone scale had been pretty mainstream in jazz for a few decades by this point and I tend to think whole tone because of the influence of Barry Harris who himself was influenced by Bud Powell and Monk who used it heavily. Whole Tone scales with chromatic neighbours are part of the material us Barry-ites are meant to practice (looks shifty.)

    To me Bb aug + C aug = wholetone. The whole tone scale includes the tritone sub 7#5 chords among others.

    In any case this is a lick that is used practically verbatim in Wes's solos of this era.

    Anyway, so called Reg Minor (it's such a pain in the arse that there is no short standardised name for simply playing the notes from the minor key over the dominant chord of that key) is for me always going to be the default interpretation because it's pretty much the most diatonic and I tend to always go to diatonic as a default in my own changes playing.

    Taking a key centric analysis this line (Db, C, Bb, Ab, E, Eb) has only one accidental when compared to F natural minor (F G Ab Bb C Db Eb) which is the E. This is the same accidental (natural 7 of the key) that pops up again and again in bop lines often with the b7 as well... Eb against C7 is pretty common, for instance.

    Very often you have the descending S T S tetrachord E Eb Db C or 7 b7 b6 5. It's a real bop cliche.

    I have no idea how they were thinking of this as it fits so many different interpretations. But it's not that far away from the prevailing key. That said running 7 b7 in a row does seem a slightly odd thing to do if you are thinking diatonically. I don't think it's something you'd find in say, Bach, but I might be wrong.

    The use of the b2 melodically as enclosure also pops up and then that pushes you more towards the tritone sound unambiguously (and Berklee-ites would say 'altered scale' and others might say 'H-W dim')
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-21-2017 at 06:28 AM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Getting used to the slower harmonic rhythm must have been a shock.
    Slightly. For about 5 minutes :-)

    I did that track at about 3 in the morning so it is a bit dreamy. I'd probably do it better first thing. But, as I said, I've played the damn thing so-o-o many times now.

    Do you just do pentatonics on the bridge? The melody's mainly a sus/69 feel. I did a bit of that, then standard mixo stuff, then combined them.

  32. #31

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    So you basically ignored the b9 sound?

    See, that was my problem, I thought it absolutely needed the Db or it wouldn't sound like a caravan :-)

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    I thought you were asking about the bridge.
    gulps...

    Sorry, fuzz, I was, but I'd lost it. Long day, little sleep. Let's start again...

    I think of them as 13th chords, so Mixolydian, or Cm11 to F13 type stuff, to use the first part as an example. In my funk-ish one, I used 13#11 voicings, and played around with mm.
    Got it, thanks.

    I was thinking the same except playing single notes, like C mel over F7 etc etc. But I was also hearing Dm or D sus, so I put a bit of that in too. I should play more chords, I know that :-)

  34. #33

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    hey guys, is there a poll for august yet? Ive been away for a while and can't remember which section they get posted in. Thanks!
    White belt
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  35. #34

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    Topic changed the format. Forum search is your friend.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
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  36. #35

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    yeah not seeing anything from this year, but i do appreciate your pontification!
    White belt
    My Youtube

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    hey guys, is there a poll for august yet? Ive been away for a while and can't remember which section they get posted in. Thanks!
    Hi, Joe. The Practical Standards thread remains in the JazzGuitar.be Lessons section. We haven't been taking polls since about Nov of 2016. Instead, we're working our way down the list of standards (that we haven't already tackled) from JazzStandards.com.

    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

    The list allows us to forego a week or two of nominating and voting on a smaller subset of personal favorites.

    I haven't launched August's thread, yet. Look for it on July 31. You can anticipate the next selection by looking at the JazzStandards list.

  38. #37

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    Cool, thanks M-ster-- I look forward to it!
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  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    If you or anyone else is interested, I made a backing track with a vaguely (and I do mean vaguely) "Ellingtonesque" feel:



    I tweaked the chords (nothing too drastic - I know the Db7 doesn't really go, but lots of people use it). And I couldn't get the vibes to behave with the b9's:
    Dear fuzz, that is a very groovetastic track, I love it madly! How did you do the vibes, are they a BIAB style or something? I went all Bobby Hutcherson listening to this.

  40. #39

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    grahambop -

    Are you going to have a go at it? I wish someone would. You, Mr. Beaumont, Dirk even. Vladan would be interesting too. I want to see what others make of it!

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    grahambop -

    Are you going to have a go at it? I wish someone would. You, Mr. Beaumont, Dirk even. Vladan would be interesting too. I want to see what others make of it!
    Yes I think I will, listening to all the versions has made me want to have a crack at it. Might take a few days.

  42. #41

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    I'm guitarless, untill September.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
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  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    I'm guitarless, untill September.
    OMG!

    Come back soon, Vladan


    Can't you borrow one?

  44. #43

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    Here's mine, I used fuzz's 'cha-cha' backing track:


  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Great stuff! Sorry the backing was lacking an intro and proper ending.
    Thanks! No problem, I usually don't bother setting up intros or endings on these things.

  46. #45

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    Well done, Graham! I still think all those C7s are a bit of a pain though. Not an easy tune, I say :-)

    cha-cha ha ha

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Well done, Graham! I still think all those C7s are a bit of a pain though. Not an easy tune, I say :-)

    cha-cha ha ha
    Thanks! I just threw everything I could think of at them, in a way I think you can play almost anything over those C7s.

  48. #47

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    As soon as I played it on a different system, I realized how sucky the mix is. Probably needs a do-over, but here's last month's tune:

    http://www.noiseinthebasement.com/mp3s/Caravan%2001.mp3