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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulD
    Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

    I really like this. I like the tempo and the tone, the playing is appealing also. Well done!

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  3. #102

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    Irez87, Jay & lawson-stone, thanks a lot for the nice remarks!

    Irez87, I’m definitely not deep, still just trying to learn & improve like everyone else. Not sure about the double-time advice...I think for me maybe it was a matter of being able to do it away from the guitar at first, just scatting along to the solos of my favorite players to get the feel more than the notes. Once I could feel it naturally, then it became easier to incorporate into my playing.


    Jay, I’m playing my ES-175 straight into a UR-22 interface (Christmas present from my son ). I recorded it using Audacity, adding just a little reverb after the fact. The backing track is BIAB using a slow jazz ballad style and muting the piano so it’s just bass & drums.

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulD
    Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

    Very nice, Paul. Great phrasing, tone and overall construction.

    Thanks for posting this.

  5. #104

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    I'm just searching my iTunes library for guitarists playing this tune

    Chuck Wayne has a great solo over this

    Howard Alden has a great solo

    Jimmy Raney has a great solo

    Joe Pass has a great solo

    Jimmy Bruno

    We could share transcriptions and figure out how the masters navigate this chestnut.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulD
    Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

    Hey Paul! Really nice professional version of Stella with good lines and good tone. I'm still playing (currently with a swing dance band here in Payson) but the arthritis in my fingers Has robbed me of my ability to play Johnny Smith type stretch chords. Howard Alden has moved from New York to Phoenix, Az and is working the area around Arizona now. Colleen is no longer able to sing due to some problems with her throat. That's about all that is new with me so I'll stop now. It is so nice to hear you play again.

    wiz (Howie)

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    Hey Paul! Really nice professional version of Stella with good lines and good tone. I'm still playing (currently with a swing dance band here in Payson) but the arthritis in my fingers Has robbed me of my ability to play Johnny Smith type stretch chords. Howard Alden has moved from New York to Phoenix, Az and is working the area around Arizona now. Colleen is no longer able to sing due to some problems with her throat. That's about all that is new with me so I'll stop now. It is so nice to hear you play again.

    wiz (Howie)
    Hi Howie, thanks for the kind words & glad to hear that you're still playing. Very sorry to hear about Colleen. I hope she will be able to sing again. I'll be retiring from my job in a couple of weeks and giving music a lot more attention this coming year. Hope to play and teach. Take care & give my best to Colleen.

    Paul

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulD
    Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

    Sounds great Paul! Nice, easy swing to your lines.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Cool. I'm a take a few more stabs at it then...wanna try an "up" take.
    Listen to Jimmy Raney's version:



    Yeeeeowzaaaaahh

    He makes that tune sing and those lines are so geeeeoooddahhh

    Not fair!

  10. #109

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    Very cool, 55bar. I like the little break into a swing....it left me wanting more.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Listen to Jimmy Raney's version:


    Yeeeeowzaaaaahh
    My reaction, exactly. Tinged with sadness too, in the certain knowledge I'll never attain those heights. Ah well, at least someone did, and we have it recorded. How lucky are we?

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Very cool, 55bar. I like the little break into a swing....it left me wanting more.
    You are WAY too kind thank you though it means a great deal especially coming from someone of your level.

    The audience started to come into the theatre so had to keep it short #ranoutofideas December 2015 - Stella By Starlight

  13. #112

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    Seriously good, 55bar!

  14. #113

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    My favorite Jimmy Raney version. The other solos are great too....especially got into the Phil Woods solo.


  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank
    My favorite Jimmy Raney version. The other solos are great too....especially got into the Phil Woods solo.

    WOW! Jimmy and PHIL! This is the best version I have listened to.

    wiz (Howie)

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, a favorite tune of mine, so I had to get in this month...trying a few different things out, but as always, trying to leave space. Hope you enjoy, and if there's something you like, let's discuss...heck, if there's something you don't like, let's talk about that too, because that's important
    !
    Beautiful, lovely time and phrasing.

    Guitar sounds lovely too. Happy new year!

  17. #116

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    Pkirk...man, I'd buy a record of you/bass duets in a heartbeat.

    Fuzz...nice ideas and space...just work on that time.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
    Figures I have to follow pkirk! Great playing!
    Fuzz, super nice. that opening chorus channels Wes. Each chorus has a different vibe, so it gives a good picture into your personal style.

  19. #118

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    PKirk - excellent vibe and interesting note choices.

    Mike - great to have you here. I liked the octaves for the Head. Lots of good things going on in there.

    Jazzguy100 - some good harmonies in there!

    Keep it up, chaps!
    Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 01-02-2016 at 04:17 AM.

  20. #119

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    Kudos to everyone that posted. They all sound great to me.

  21. #120

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    I will post an example of my studies into orchestral comping later this weekend. I am trying to uncover what Ed Bickert said when he meant "comping like an orchestra". I think I am getting a little closer to that understanding, but I am just at the tip of the iceberg. For modern reharm ideas for standards, I listen to Bill Holman, Oliver Nelson, Gunther Schuller, and George Russell. Any other suggestions? I could turn this into another thread, but it would be interesting to post modern big band arrangements of Stella here. I already posted Bill Holman's eerily beautiful arrangement a couple of posts back.

  22. #121

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    Impressive. But how does this help you? What does it give you other than singing the song, or playing the melody while singing it on the guitar? No criticism, just curious.

  23. #122

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    Destiny, do it against a drone, Bb.

    Good question, Rob.

    The exercise helps you by recontextualizing the song in Bb and hearing melody and harmony as a series of tension and release around the home key (Bb)

    In effect, your ear teaches you how your lines should cadence in regards to how the notes orbit around the key.

    For instance, with a Bb drone you have the following line for the 3rds of each chord:

    Em7b5 A7b9 Cm7 F7 Fm7 Bb7 Ebmaj7 Ab7 Bb7

    Instead of thinking purely chord to chord, think of everything relating to Bbmajor

    Check this out (in 3rds)

    La (G of Em7b5 --> 6th of Bb major)

    May (C# of A7b9 --> b3rd of Bb major)

    Fa (Eb of Cm7 --> 4th of Bb Major)

    Ti (A of F7 --> 7th of Bb major)

    Tay (Ab of Fm7 --> b7th of Bb major)

    Me (D of Bb7 --> 3rd of Bb major)

    La (G of Ebmaj7 --> 6th of Bb major)

    Re (C of Ab7 --> 2nd of Bb major)

    Me (3rd of Bbmaj)

    To write out in a linear fashion, you have the following in Bbmajor in scale degrees

    6 -- b3 -- 4 -- 7 -- b7 -- 3 -- 6 -- 2 -- 3

    I could include how this looks on a musical staff to show, visually how the notes work.

    The larger concept behind all this is to show how the harmonies create inner melodies within the key center in a similar fashion to how the melody operates with in a key center.

    Why sing this exercise? Your ear will teach you how to navigate the tune more than your eye and your mind. You memorize the sound of the tune instead of relying purely on visual and mental maths (you can still use them in tandem, but use your ear as the foundation).

    George Van Eps always spoke of harmonies being more like intertwined horizontal melodies. This is what he was talking about. I happened upon this after years of studying the Banacos method through Bruce Arnold.

    My idea of comping like an orchestra will be based off the idea of multiple melodies creating tension and release within the home key. If you are interested, PM me and I can direct you to the courses I am still using as well as the thought process behind the ear guiding the hand (instead of the brain and the eye).

    Miles was hip to this as well.

  24. #123

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    Interesting, but I learn the sounds available within a given key by working them into my ears, hands, eyes and mind at the same time through practicing scales.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
    Interesting, but I learn the sounds available within a given key by working them into my ears, hands, eyes and mind at the same time through practicing scales.
    That's fine, this is just a method of practicing away from the instrument in which you use sound as your blue print instead of just text (theory). That being said, the theory helps you construct the sound, but you end up memorizing the sound instead of just the theory.

    Just a different approach. Granted, getting this approach to work requires a lot of singing solfege. However, you will figure out how your inner ear works more so by singing than by theorizing every last drop of music. At the end of the day the audience will always respond "Yeah... So? Does it sound good?"

    This method is about sound not mental math or the physicality of the instrument. Of course you need to know the fret board and the physical nature of the instrument, but you don't have to be fettered by its confines.

    I could continue this on that ear training blog thing I started. I still have to see if Bruce Arnold could actually lend some of his expertise. Maybe we could get Barbra Banacos or Gary Dial to chime in? That would be crazy kool

  26. #125
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Impressive. But how does this help you? What does it give you other than singing the song, or playing the melody while singing it on the guitar? No criticism, just curious.
    Thanks, Rob - I recognise kindness in your curiosity, and I'm grateful. Before addressing the question, I'd like to be clear that I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm sharing something that helps.

    The benefits, as I see them, apply to all instruments (including the voice) because they put the musician in the driver's seat.

    I call this kind of ear training 'independent listening' (I borrow the term from language teaching methodology). If you prepare tunes this way, you get to 'know' their harmony - intuitively, with musical connaissance de cause - as you know your mother tongue well enough to tell a story; you can make adjustments to suit your your audience and purpose, with no 'half-guessing'. (Like the man said, "If you can't hear it, you can't play it.")

    This kind of ear training does wonders for intonation (obviously important for singers - wind and brass, too), and I'm just beginning to appreciate the value of improved intonation when bending notes. (I've just begun thinking of 'blue notes' as more than just flattened diatonic scale degrees.)

    But what I call 'independent listening' is (part of) a foundation for improved group/ensemble performance, involving what I call 'interactive listening'. I'm starting to appreciate how using chromatic solfège to learn tunes can help with groove.
    Last edited by destinytot; 01-02-2016 at 01:58 PM. Reason: spelling

  27. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Impressive. But how does this help you? What does it give you other than singing the song, or playing the melody while singing it on the guitar? No criticism, just curious.
    Not speaking for destiny, but for myself, personally, I've found that the benefits are hard to I understand without having done it yourself. I've taken Autumn leaves and worked it Aebersold style, first..roots, then 121, 123, triads, seventh chords , full scales etc. for each chord. Autumnleaves is just so cyclical and easy to hear. I can do it while I'm driving or doing other things.

    Any way, especially with minor tunes, you begin to hear the context and relationship of the tune as you're used to hearing it, in minor, while at the same time hearing the relationship to major. DO just sounds like DO. It's hard to describe exactly what it is, but it's like reading. You already know how to say the words, but you don't have or descriptive symbol or place for them functionally.

    It's a way of mentally codifying and contextualizing all the music you already know. Beyond just ear training intervals, I would imagine that there's tremendous value in just learning to sing melodies and root movements you already know aurally, but with solfeggio.
    Very strange seeing Mike's video on this, as I have on my list to record these patterns with solfeggio for Stella, before holiday ends on Monday, as I'm about to have much more "time away from the instrument".

    Interesting that I find the 121 patterns easier to sing than roots only. Don't have to check yourself as much. Instant feedback.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-02-2016 at 01:54 PM.

  28. #127

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    Hmm. All very interesting. Although I am an awful singer, I do like to sing the melody while playing the chords or playing the melody. When I just play and sing the melody, I can hear the harmonic context, or rather, I can hear a harmonic context. Once I know it, I'm pretty sure it is my ear that is shaping the melody, not the guitar. I can't see the immediate advantage of spending more time learning solfege, but I'm sure you see it otherwise.

    I totally get thinking horizontally rather than vertically, and am aware of Van Eps as well as Renaissance, baroque and classical music theories and architecture. When I play, I usually think about connecting lines horizontally, especially, but not exclusively, the top and bottom lines. When I see the chord symbol CMaj7, for example, I see and hear linear opportunities in and around the chord, though I still have an enormous amount of work ahead of me to make that natural for me.

    What I'm failing to see is how solfege would offer more than my ability to hear, see and sing these things. But I'm always open to persuasion!

  29. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    What I'm failing to see is how solfege would offer more than my ability to hear, see and sing these things. But I'm always open to persuasion!
    for me, the biggest immediate advantage is being able to relate given pitch to the chord of the moment or key of the moment to overall key center. It's pretty difficult for me to think of both of these at the same time. I'm just not that smart or talented yet. But with solfeggio, I'm using the other side of my brain. I can hear DO as the 3rd degree of my minor key that I'm singing, ....think of it as that third-degree of minor, but at the same time, hear it's other relationship as the root of major. that's from just barely doing it at all for a couple of few minutes with a jazz tune. eventually, I'm sure it would be more of being able to see pictures in your head as you play or hear things.

    Honestly, I'm too lazy/busy at this point in my life to give up practice time which could otherwise be used playing something on the instrument. Again, this is something I'm going to do in the way of recording and listening back as I drive or go about my day with in-between times away from the guitar. Just rote singing of melody and patterns over changes with these new solfeggio verses.

    Still cleaning up minor flood damage here from storms in my basement. If I get around to doing this, I'll post some MP3s. My daughter seems to love these crazy exercises. A few months ago, I had all the kids and wife able to sing Miles's solo from so what ( not solfeggio mind you) . Started outdriving them crazy and then became kind of a family joke or amusement.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-02-2016 at 02:23 PM.

  30. #129
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    It's a way of mentally codifying and contextualizing all the music you already know.
    Very well put, Matt. (You can build on - and/or consolidate - what you know.)

    James Jamerson bass lines are my current big thing - pretty much the opposite of 'jazz' as a curatorial platform. On the other hand, bass lines, tenor lines, alto lines and soprano lines - it's all melody.

  31. #130

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    Destiny, you hooked in everyone else whereas I failed.

    Finally, it seems as if people are willing to try this approach.

    I have to be honest, I hated practicing solfege with James Chirillo (read my previous posts, he loved musicianship almost as much as I love it ) I HATED singing.

    He would give me exercises out of the old George Wedge book and I HATED it. I just wanted to play guitar with him.

    "C'mon James, teach me those Freddie Green chords," I would plea.

    Nope, he kept pushing the singing. He got me into seeing melodies in fragments, miniature cadences. But, like I said, an hour's worth of singing.

    Too bad I was too stubborn to really listen until the very end. I learned Segovia fingerings, and George Van Eps movements, and how to build a tenor line a la Freddie Green, but I would have learned much more if I did the singing when I told him.

    But I hated the sound of my voice. Rob, I can commiserate. But, I can also say, with confidence, that all the singing and ear training and musicianship helped my playing more than anything physical on the instrument.

    Why?

    Simple. I could access my own unique musical sensibilities. I could access my musical voice. Now I am fine tuning my musical voice to fit what I truly hear and not what is "correct" all the time.

    Kurt found his voice.

    So did Pete B.

    So did Howard Alden.

    It's freaking hard work, no way around it. But I guarantee that if you work on your musicianship half as much as you work on technique, you will progress leaps and bounds.

    Give it a couple of months and you will start hearing things and understanding things better because of your ear. Honestly, it took me 6-7 years of musicianship to get to where I am right now and I'm still not satisfied. But I am closer to where I want to be, musically.

  32. #131
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    What I'm failing to see is how solfege would offer more than my ability to hear, see and sing these things. But I'm always open to persuasion!
    I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade anyone of its value - that would be a minefield of hidden assumptions. Besides, being self-taught, I value types of evidence which other people may not.

    But I'll put forward my opinion anyway, because I think it's relevant to the purpose at hand, i.e improvising on the standard Stella, and also to my broader purpose, i.e. addressing gaps in my knowledge.

    As far as improvising 'jazz' is concerned, I think anyone who educates their musical ear will find their abilities enhanced and the range and quality of their palette increased, i.e. I think it would offer greater control, and on an intuitive level ('quick') rather than a conscious one ('slow').

    I'll add that while chromatic solfège is certainly proving itself to be a useful tool for consolidating those gaps, what Irez says about the drone is what takes hearing to a different level.
    Last edited by destinytot; 01-02-2016 at 04:42 PM. Reason: spelling

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Found this video of Barry Harris looking at Stella:
    I really like Barry's chords at the beginning here, so I tried to figure them out on the guitar. I think I got close, but I could hear additional notes he could get on the piano which it was impossible to include on the guitar. So then I had a go on my wife's piano (I'm no pianist but I can just about navigate the keyboard). It was really cool seeing how the chord voices move on the piano, they sort of stand out more visually than on the guitar. I wish I could do this more often!

    Anyway when I've figured out a few more chords I might post them here, it's fascinating to see the voicings Barry uses.

    To whet your appetite, the first chord is a kind of Bb dim, i.e. xx8655.

  34. #133
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I really like Barry's chords at the beginning here, so I tried to figure them out on the guitar. I think I got close, but I could hear additional notes he could get on the piano which it was impossible to include on the guitar. So then I had a go on my wife's piano (I'm no pianist but I can just about navigate the keyboard). It was really cool seeing how the chord voices move on the piano, they sort of stand out more visually than on the guitar. I wish I could do this more often!

    Anyway when I've figured out a few more chords I might post them here, it's fascinating to see the voicings Barry uses.

    To whet your appetite, the first chord is a kind of Bb dim, i.e. xx8655.
    I love the sound of that first chord. I hear it as an A major triad over a Bb in the bass.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop

    Anyway when I've figured out a few more chords I might post them here, it's fascinating to see the voicings Barry uses.

    To whet your appetite, the first chord is a kind of Bb dim, i.e. xx8655.
    I love Barry's comping as well. First chord sounds right, then I have:

    x.x.10.7.6.x

    x.6.9.x.6.x

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I love Barry's comping as well. First chord sounds right, then I have:

    x.x.10.7.6.x

    x.6.9.x.6.x
    For the first 45 seconds, I have this:

    Bb dim (maj7) xx8655

    Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331

    F13b9 1x4231

    Fm9 1x1113

    Bb13b9 x56433

  37. #136

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    Interesting, Graham. Works for me.

  38. #137

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    So, the consensus is another month on 'Stella By Starlight'?

  39. #138

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    Dear Wiz,

    putting on Stella a F major on bar 9, darkens the understanding of the song IMO.
    For me,Stella has 2 tonal centers; Bb major and Fmajor

    I skip the intro,so bar 1 begins at Em7b5

    FIRST PART (bar 1 to 9) TONAL CENTER :Bb MAJOR

    // IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm/I / V7/I /IIm/IV / V7/IV / IV / IImV7/bIII / Imaj7

    SECOND PART (bar 10 to13) TONAL CENTER :F MAJOR

    IIm7b5 V7/VI / VIm / IIm V7/bIII / Imaj7

    FINAL PART (bar 14 to the end) TONAL CENTER Bb MAJOR

    / IIm7b5 V7/III / IIm7b5/VIm / V7/VIm / V7/II / V7/II /IIm/I / IIm/I /
    / IIm/bIII / V7/bIII / Imaj 7 / I maj7 / IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm7b5/IIm /
    / V7/IIm / IIm7b5/I / V7/I / Imaj7 / I maj7 //

    For those who don't easy understand the concept of diatonic and chromatic secondary dominants,go to my post :

    DIATONIC AND CHROMATICSECONDARYDOMINANTS WITH THE SCHOENBERG VISIONS OF CLUSTERS OF RELATED SCALES ,11-20-2014

    cheers
    HB
    Last edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 01-03-2016 at 02:34 PM.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
    Dear Wiz,

    putting on Stella a F major on bar 13, darkens the understanding of the song IMO.
    For me,Stella has 2 tonal centers; Bb major and Fmajor

    I skip the intro,so bar 1 begins at Em7b5

    FIRST PART (bar 1 to 9) TONAL CENTER :Bb MAJOR

    // IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm/I / V7/I /IIm/IV / V7/IV / IV / IImV7/bIII / Imaj7

    SECOND PART (bar 10 to13) TONAL CENTER :F MAJOR

    IIm7b5 V7/VI / VIm / IIm V7/bIII / Imaj7

    FINAL PART (bar 14 to the end) TONAL CENTER Bb MAJOR

    / IIm7b5 V7/III / IIm7b5/VIm / V7/VIm / V7/II / V7/II /IIm/I / IIm/I /
    / IIm/bIII / V7/bIII / Imaj 7 / I maj7 / IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm7b5/IIm /
    / V7/IIm / IIm7b5/I / V7/I / Imaj7 / I maj7 //

    For those who don't easy understand the concept of diatonic and chromatic secondary dominants,go to my post :

    DIATONIC AND CHROMATICSECONDARYDOMINANTS WITH THE SCHOENBERG VISIONS OF CLUSTERS OF RELATED SCALES ,11-20-2014

    cheers
    HB
    Hyppolyte Bergamotte, you owe it to your love of the stellar landscape to submit your own musically cosmic journys into that realm of Stella by Starlight.

    Can you post your own version? I'm already trying to imagine the off kilter creativity you will post.

    Please? (Honest)

  41. #140

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    Hyppolite, I understand your notation, though I was confused at first with use of slash lines not always being bar lines. So, IIm7b5/III means IIm7b5 of chord III in Bb. Now the whole thing makes sense.

    So, how does this analysis help you with improvisation? Bars 1 and 2 are a ii/V in Dm, the III chord of Bb. Does it matter to you that they are in Bb? Is it not sufficient to say it's just a minor ii/V in Dm?

    The Ab13 in Bar 8 is (by your notation) the V7 of the bIII chord. How does knowing this is the V7 of the bIII in Bb Major help you when improvising? I would see it in isolation, and maybe play a Lydian Dominant on it. [you also seem to precede it with a ii chord - is that right?]

    Again, no criticism here. I'm just curious how your analysis helps you improvise over the form.

  42. #141

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    Well, thanks for referencing my video, but I'm a little embarrassed about it now - though not enough to take it down. There are a few 5/4 bars in there, or even 7/8. LOL. But I was roughly busking it after working out the chords, more or less. Work in progress.
    I'm enjoying all the contributions into this fascinating thread, though I don't always understand them all - not a bad thing, as I like learning news ways. I thought I might try a single-note line study, somewhat Bach influenced. Then I thought I might try two-part textures, which I've seen Gilad Hekselman do very successfully - might sign up for his video. There are so many ways to go, it's kind of overwhelming, but enjoyable as well.

  43. #142

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    I've read this entire thread and listened to every treatment of Stella. I've struggled with improvisational line playing for ages, and read a lot of theory, tried a lot of tricks. Still struggling, and Stella has to be one of the hardest tunes I have ever tried to improvise lines for. I love playing it chord-melody style, but I'm still working on line playing.

    But the thing I've noticed on this thread is that the performances of the tune that I actually find most compelling, most appealing, have come from folks who either haven't discussed the theory at all, or whose statements about theory have been very standard, mainstream ideas, or have even confessed that they are not entirely sure how to go about analyzing the chord progressions, key centers, etc.

    As somebody who works every day (in another domain) at the frontier, the membrane, between concept and praxis, I find it curious that at least a lot of the most compelling playing comes from some of the most straight-forward, even simple statements about theory.

    I gotta mull over this one some more.
    Last edited by lawson-stone; 01-03-2016 at 09:23 PM.

  44. #143

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    I've been working on simplifying the key centers for this as much as I could, to be able to hit the changes easily as well as leave room for my individual voice instead of worrying about accidentals in the chart.

    I've also tried to work in some thoughts from here and elsewhere, subbing relative majors in minor 251s, and staying in major scales:

    Bars/Key Center

    1-2 F
    3-4 Bb
    5-7 Eb
    8 Db
    9 Bb
    10-11 F
    12 Ab
    13-14 F
    15-16 Bb
    17-20 Eb
    21-22 Db
    23-24 Bb
    25-26 F
    27-28 Eb
    29 Db
    30-32 Bb

    Note the descent from 25 through 32.

    My next submission will reflect these, but wanted to share now.
    Last edited by boatheelmusic; 01-04-2016 at 06:22 AM.

  45. #144

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    So, how does this analysis help you with improvisation? Bars 1 and 2 are a ii/V in Dm, the III chord of Bb. Does it matter to you that they are in Bb? Is it not sufficient to say it's just a minor ii/V in Dm?
    Hi,Rob !

    for your first question,I learned to analyze jazz standards in this way; it does give a more a global vision of the intentions of the composer.When he writed this tune,it's an evidence that he thought all this chords in a perspective of tonal centers.

    The Ab13 in Bar 8 is (by your notation) the V7 of the bIII chord. How does knowing this is the V7 of the bIII in Bb Major help you when improvising?
    This V7/bIII is for me a signpost to modal interchange. A modal interchange Bbmajor scale-----Bbminor scale.I know that I can borrow the II, IV,V, and VII chords of the Db major scale but also their modes an the related modes ,introducing foreign tensions:

    CHORDS
    Cmin7b5,Eb min, Gb 11+,Ab7,EbmAb7
    MODES
    1)Ebminor Dorian (IInd mode of the Dbmajor scale) ,Eb jazz minor (first mode of Eb Melodic Minor Scale) , Eb harm min (first mode of Harmonic Minor Scale), Ebmin11+ ( IVth mode of Bb Melodic Minor Scale) , ,Ebjazz min11+ (IVth mode ofBb Harmonic Major Scale) ,Ebm Hungarish minor (IVth mode of Bb double Harmonic minor Scale)

    2) C Locrian (VIIth mode of the Db Major scale)and all the related modes C Locrian9,C Locrian6 the Harmonic Dorian mode, C Dorian b5mode ,C Semi-Locrianb4(the VIth mode of Eb Napolitan Major Scale)

    3) GbLydian and all the related modes

    4)Ab7 Mixolydian and related modes

    cheers
    HB
    Last edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 01-04-2016 at 07:02 AM.

  46. #145

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    Has someone posted up the original changes for the tune?

    December 2015 - Stella By Starlight-stella-original-realbook-changes-jpg

  47. #146

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    The original always reminds me of Rachmaninoff, that style of harmony... All those changes work superimposed on the original changes, and vice versa, though there are issues about using Bb altered scale harmony for the first couple of bars (which is what I tended to do) - Bb diminished may be a better a choice.

    My analysis would be as follows:

    Bear in mind I regard bVII7 I, V7b9 I, IVm I as interchangeable (Barry Harris) as they are all movements that employ the b6. As you can always stick the b6 into the any major key chord movement (BH) this means that V7 I, IV I, V7b9 I, IVm I, V7b9 I are all reflections of the same thing (the Diminished-Major 6th scale.)

    I realised this from looking at transcriptions before I realised BH had an overarching theory for it.

    Anyway, given b6 is always big and clever, this is the way I view the progression:

    Bars 1-7: Eo7 for two bars! Then F7 Bb7 going around to the Eb and coming back to Bb. You've taken your first steps in a larger world.
    Bar 8-13: Then we either stay in Bb or visit Dm, before going to F. Go hyperspace to a couple of planets, etc...
    Bar 14-16: Then we wind around to set up Gm. Get set up for your attack run, and watch for enemy fighters.
    Bar 17-24: The expected Gm is - surprise! - a G7b9 which pushes us towards Cm7/Eb6 and thence back to Bb. It's a trap!!! We can't repel firepower of that magnitude.
    Then we go windy windy around using either a set of whole step doms (A7 F7 G7) or the Eo7 for two bars or and then a You could even do a Poe Dameron turnaround: Db7 Gbmaj7 B7#11 Bb using tritone symmetry. Now let's blow this thing and go home.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-04-2016 at 01:45 PM.

  48. #147

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    I'm getting overwhelmed with possibilities. I might check out of this thread. Clear my head.

  49. #148

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    Bear in mind I regard bVII7 I, V7b9 I, IVm I as interchangeable (Barry Harris) as they are all movements that employ the b6. As you can always stick the b6 into the any major key chord movement (BH) this means that V7 I, IV I, V7b9 I, IVm I, V7b9 I are all reflections of the same thing (the Diminished-Major 6th scale.)
    OK Christianm77 (or Christianmb6 ? )

    In the Bb diminished Major 6th scale,F7(b9),Ebmaj,Ebm and Ab7b9(without the Tonic) are interchangeable (BH theory)
    But I find your progression not very clear.
    Could you please set up your chords( of different choices of chords )bar per bar ?

    thanks !

    HB (Alas! not BH!)

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
    OK Christianm77 (or Christianmb6 ? )

    In the Bb diminished Major 6th scale,F7(b9),Ebmaj,Ebm and Ab7b9(without the Tonic) are interchangeable (BH theory)
    But I find your progression not very clear.
    Could you please set up your chords( of different choices of chords )bar per bar ?

    thanks !

    HB (Alas! not BH!)
    No because I don't view them bar by bar. I view them as movements towards target chords.

    But I'll try and make it clearer if I can... Standby. As the Death Star laser guy says twice for no reason other than to let the rebels win....

  51. #150

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    Ok here it is as clear as I can put it.

    The arrows indicate movement towards target chords. You can always use BH style dim7/borrowed tone type movements or anything else you fancy really provided it sounds good to you.

    You may notice that the all of the chords originally in the progression that are under the arrows fit into the 8 note BH dim6 scale for the target chord in most cases.

    We remove the ii's in ii-V as well. Not important.

    In BH land we use Eb6 instead of Cm7. I tend to think Cm7 but that's cos I'm a guitar player.

    This is the way I understand things when I do a jazz.

    December 2015 - Stella By Starlight-stella-analysis-png
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-04-2016 at 05:48 PM.