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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Jeff, in bar 17 of Howie's score (that would be bar 13 without the 4-bar intro) you are playing a Bb in the bass. I've seen a couple of charts with a Bb chord there, yet Howie has an F. The melody is Eb, so I played it as an F7, but I'm not convinced about the chord. Any thoughts on this?

    Also, (1-minute mark) I love your sub for the BbMaj7 (bars 17&18, Howie's score). From what I can make out you are playing a low E, the tritone note, with a BbMaj6/7 above it. Very cool. I'm going to steal that one

    But what are you doing right at the beginning for the A7b9? It looks like you have an open A, G on 4, C# on 3, then instead of playing an F on 2, you stretch all the way back to play it on 1 at the first fret. Is there anything on 2? C? So, are you subbing the A7b9 with A7#5#9? Whatever it is, I like it.

    And (if you don't mind all these questions!) what are you playing for the G+ chord in bar 21? Looks like a Galt/D. Sounds great. I was using an augmented chord.
    Hey Rob, thanks!

    So, sorta in order...

    That second chord is supposed to have a C and F on top, but i'm not sure the C happened so I'm just thinking Aalt.

    As for bar 13, i'm not sure...I see myself going to Fmaj7, followed by the minor in V in the next bar, where I put a Bb in the bass of the Em7b5 chord...it's like a Bb6#11 or something, but it's just E half diminished to me. I think that's what you're hearing in the other spot too...

    And yes, I guess the G+ chord i'm grabbing is like a b9b13, since I put the D in the bass...sounds ok to me, I went with it

    Wow, I think I just realized I have no idea what i'm playing sometimes. Great for "cool kid" cache, lousy for a teacher though! Looks like I need to start the weird and narcissistic-feeling process of transcribing myself every now and then!

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  3. #52

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    Cheers, Jeff. Appreciated.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, a favorite tune of mine, so I had to get in this month...trying a few different things out, but as always, trying to leave space. Hope you enjoy, and if there's something you like, let's discuss...heck, if there's something you don't like, let's talk about that too, because that's important
    !
    really nice chord melody Jeff, I had to listen a few times to catch much of the good harmony you put into your version. As usual, it was well done with a lot of thought and "feel" for the melody line. I liked it all and look forward to your next input.

    best wishes
    wiz (Howie)

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Nice, Jehu. I keep wishing I could see the headstock on that guitar, man, like, what is that you play? Your own private luthier? ;-)
    Your wish is my command!

    December 2015 - Stella By Starlight-0-artsy-2-jpg

  6. #55

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    Well I finally got a chance to listen to all of the submissions from the past couple of days, and I officially declare this the best Practical Standards thread of recent history. Incredible playing from incredible players. Jaw-dropping stuff from Jeff, as is to be expected.


    Quote Originally Posted by ggjay
    Here's my first version. Quick and Dirty. I'm planning on doing a slow one too later in the month.
    Editing is horrible.
    Quick and dirty my ass! I really, really enjoyed this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    This* a chorus of improvisation/noodling over an Aebersold track:
    Destiny, I think this video disqualifies you from the "struggling to get to a basic performance level" thread. You've got some pretty nice lines happening here.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Here's a couple of old ones
    Awesome stuff, Paul, but I'm afraid these don't count. You'll need to record new ones for us.

  7. #56
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Destiny, I think this video disqualifies you from the "struggling to get to a basic performance level" thread. You've got some pretty nice lines happening here.
    Thanks, man! I sing EVERYTHING (chord tones and lines) in context (repertoire) at a piano, and I have a lot of phrases from which to draw - because I only sing and play what I like (working with my nervous system, rather than against it).

    But I am struggling - and the gloves are off in the battle with myself. I'm determined to get past my current limitations and play any song, on my own terms (i.e. in a manner that suits my temperament) and in my own style.

  8. #57

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    Wow, this is a great month, great submissions...tonight I shall listen closer to everybody's and offer some individual comments, while sipping a little bourbon. So those at the beginning of the thread....your comments might actually make sense.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Awesome stuff, Paul, but I'm afraid these don't count. You'll need to record new ones for us.
    Thanks Jehu. I've been in Germany for 5 months with just my tele, no amp, no recording set-up, so I had to dredge up some recordings that were in the nether regions of my laptop to participate. They are both from 2013, so not super old.

  10. #59

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    For me, and others similarly less experienced, a big part of this month has been the depth of technical analysis from Rob, Paul, Jeff and others further on down the road. And I think that hopefully could be a recurring focus going forward for everyone's benefit to make this thread all it can be!
    Last edited by boatheelmusic; 12-20-2015 at 09:11 PM.

  11. #60

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    Well, it's getting late in the month, and i feel like i need to post something,
    so here's my first rough attempt at it:
    Stella By Starlight

    i knew this one was going to be hard for me, and i need to keep working on this, so i might have another go before the end of the year, other commitments permitting.
    Last edited by dogletnoir; 12-20-2015 at 11:45 PM.

  12. #61

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    I've never done one of these monthly things, but give me a couple days I'll have a go at this. Because I'm going target the reduced Melody, which is something that is not done as much.

    I've written out a 32 bar chart with one whole note per measure ---each note represents the most essential Melody note. You can even compress the 32 measures to 4 measures and transform those whole notes into 8th notes. That will give you a better indication of what the reduced melody line sounds like as a stream of eighth notes.

    The way you work through it is you sing The essential notes, and perform rhythmic and melodic permutations and targeting on them, like playing changes but not with the changes, but with the essential melody condensed and stripped bare. .

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I've never done one of these monthly things, but give me a couple days I'll have a go at this. Because I'm going target the reduced Melody, which is something that is not done as much.

    I've written out a 32 bar chart with one whole note per measure ---each note represents the most essential Melody note. You can even compress the 32 measures to 4 measures and transform those whole notes into 8th notes. That will give you a better indication of what the reduced melody line sounds like as a stream of eighth notes.

    The way you work through it is you sing The essential notes, and perform rhythmic and melodic permutations and targeting on them, like playing changes but not with the changes, but with the essential melody condensed and stripped bare. .
    Looking forward to this, Navdeep. It's an approach I've never encountered before. Sounds interesting.

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    OK, I've never done one of these monthly practical standards, so I thought I'd give it a go. I've never played Stella before.

    I'm trying to make sense of the score. Comments on this analysis welcome:

    Intro: I VI ii V in Bb

    Bars 5&6 ii V in Dm
    7&8 ii V in Bb
    9&10&11 ii V I in Eb
    12&13 two "random" secondary chords: Ab13 and F7 (the 7 is in the melody)
    14&15 ii V i in Dm
    16 ii V in Ab
    17 "random" chord FMaj7
    18 ii V in Dm or D
    19&20 ii V in G
    21 to 24 V i in Cm
    25 and 27 "random" Ab7b5 (b5 in melody) and BbMaj9 (9 in melody)
    28&29 ii V in Dm
    30&31 ii V in Cm (down a tone from above)
    33 to 36 ii V I in Bb (down a tone from above)
    Looking at this yesterday, it occurs to me that the first bar of the chorus is probably just a sub for G minor with passing diminished. Resolutions to nowhere make more sense in this light. 625 progression.

    Then later the same chords are used more functionally as minor 2 5. this thing is really a workshop on the modal interchange, especially using min7b5/ min6 and dim/7b9 as avenues to other tonal areas.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Looking at this yesterday, it occurs to me that the first bar of the chorus is probably just a sub for G minor with passing diminished.
    Nevermind...

    Dude, this tune. Looking at the vanilla changes: http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/s28.html
    Don't know if that simplifies anything for me....
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-22-2015 at 12:45 PM.

  16. #65

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    I thought, instead of looking at what someone else ended with, analysing and learning it, why not start from the
    basic and do it on my own? Sorry i made it too simple. I always seem to forget how serious business this Jazz guitar is.
    No place for fun, joke and good time. Just pain, endless learning and fake grin on the gig.

    Now, if you could tell me, why would anybody in his sane mind harmonize note A with Em7b5 (Not to Wiz's account)?
    IMO, There's no reason. In practice, listening to what people actually play, they do not play that b5(+11) below that
    4(11). Usually they play them one after another. Other play long intros to establish some sonic environment where it
    will, sort of, work, but even then many opt to obscure melody after all, because it can not work, not really.
    Why is it written that way then? To make it appear more difficult than what it really is?

    I've posed simillar questions on occasions and do not need all the same answers once again, but do not hesitate,
    there's always someone fresh enough to learn something from it.
    Last edited by Vladan; 12-23-2015 at 05:54 PM.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    ... Now, if you could tell me, why would anybody in his sane mind harmonize note A with Em7b5 ... ?
    Some comments:

    (1) Barry Harris asserts that the change in bar 1 originally was Bb dim 7 (in Bb, the key you're describing). This makes the A a major 7th on a diminished voicing. In other words, a tension or extension (depending on your terminology preference). It's a nice change, if you want to try it.

    (2) Often, jazz reharmonizations seek to substitute changes that move the melody notes away from more vanilla functions (roots, thirds, fifths) to higher tension/extension functions against the harmony. This creates a more "jazzy" flavor (to me, anyway) ... but YMMV. In this case, the A becomes tension 11 on the E-7b5. You'll find this harmony (-7b5(11)) in *many* standards.

    (3) I tend to believe that using Bb dim 7 or E-7b5 to A7 in bar 1 is a deception. It might be natural to expect the I chord (i.e., Bbmaj7) in bar 1, especially when returning to the top from a turnaround at the end of a chorus. So, using the Bb dim or the ii - V that starts on #IV of the key is a clever (if you will) misdirection.

    Finally, try this voicing under the A (nothing new, but I love it):

    x 7 8 7 7 5
    Last edited by M-ster; 12-23-2015 at 09:58 PM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    ... I always thought we were friends? ...

    XX2333 - Call it Em7b5, C9, Gm6, whatever. Add the A: XX2335 - You get basic melody which harmonizes with any of those chords and the b5 is there. That's Mickey Baker stuff, vanilla jazz. Maybe we're talking about different things? Anyway, nobody was telling anyone else what to play as far as I saw. Sorry for any offense.
    Don't worry, we are friends, no offense taken (but stay alert, with friends like me, who need ...). Hope you won't take all this to much to heart. I made it sound much worse than I tought it was, or wanted it to be. And thanks for explaanation. And, yes, A does sound good on top of that chord.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster
    Some comments:

    (1) Barry Harris asserts that the change in bar 1 originally was Bb dim 7 (in Bb, the key you're describing). This makes the A a major 7th on a diminished voicing. In other words, a tension or extension (depending on your terminology preference). It's a nice change, if you want to try it.

    (2) Often, jazz reharmonizations seek to substitute changes that move the melody notes away from more vanilla functions (roots, thirds, fifths) to higher tension/extension functions against the harmony. This creates a more "jazzy" flavor (to me, anyway) ... but YMMV. In this case, the A becomes tension 11 on the E-7b5. You'll find this harmony (-7b5(11)) in *many* standards.

    (3) I tend to believe that using Bb dim 7 or E-7b5 to A7 in bar 1 is a deception. It might be natural to expect the I chord (i.e., Bbmaj7) in bar 1, especially when returning to the top from a turnaround at the end of a chorus. So, using the Bb dim or the ii - V that starts on #IV of the key is a clever (if you will) misdirection.

    Finally, try this voicing under the A (nothing new, but I love it):

    x 7 8 7 7 5
    Thank you M-Ster
    Whatever is played, under whatever name, they are all subs for BbMaj7, in the first bar, IMO and respectfully for the plain chords I wrote. So, from BbMaj7 to Gm7 to
    Bb6 to Bbdim to Em7b5 ,,, and so on, as Mat did mention above, it's all that same tonic.
    BTW, that reccomended voicing, I could not play it even if I wanted to, though I do recognize in it some segments I use, in 2, 3 and 4 strings sets and not strictly for the chord by the name of..., but for harmonizing in scalar manner, so to say, although I don't think I'd be playing that F# too much. For the 5 strings chord I'd have to play B string at 5th fret, not because F# does, or does not sound good, but because I can not force my fingers in position.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    nice playing to everyone who posted.

    I wanted to pass along one tiny variation that is kind of hip: at the very end, when it goes

    Em7b5/A7/Dm7b5/G7/cm7b5/F7/Bb/Bb,

    try instead

    Em7b5/A7/Dm7b5/G7/ Dbm11-Gb7/cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb.

    If you really want to milk it, you can do a whole chromatic descending thing there

    Fm11-Bb7/Em7b5-A7/Ebm11-Ab7/Dm7b5-G7/Dbm11-Gb7/Cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb

    at reasonable tempi you can outline the changes in your single line playing and it creates tension against the harmony that keeps resolving itself-sort of- until you hit the Bb where it finally resolves. It also works with the melody if you put those 11ths on top.

    and if you really want to reharmonize you can try

    Fm11/Bb7/Ebm11/Ab7/Dbm11-Gb7/Cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb
    Love that re harm. I learned it as

    "if the m7b5 chord has the minor 3rd in the melody, you can play a ii-v a SEMITONE ABOVE.

  20. #69

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    How come no one posted this version:



    I love that intro so so so much!

  21. #70

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    By the way, if I were to go back to my pedestal, I would say that what makes Stella interesting is that it flirts between Gm and Bb major for the entire tune.

    For those of you singers out there (Destiny and Vintage), try singing this tune with chromatic solfege and keep playing Bb as a drone against everything. Through simplification you will find beauty and complication than using rote theory. Actually, you need theory to see how the tune orbits back to Bb.

    Try it, I will

  22. #71

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    I think Vlad is on to something.

    Remember that these were compositions, originally. They were not vehicles for soloing over. There is a macro analysis that many of us gloss over.

    The tune is in Bb and flirts with Gm.

    I would do another pod cast with a drone to prove this, but that would make y'all go cashew nuts.

    Take that first string of harmony and think home key of Bb

    Em7b5/ A7/ C-7 / F7/ Fm7/ Bb7/ Ebmaj7/ Ab7/ Bbmaj7

    #ivm7b5/ VIIdom7/ iim7/ Vdom7/ vmi7 (inner guide tone movement)/ Idom7 (deceptive home base)/ IVmaj7/ bVIIdom7/ HOME BASE

    Now look at the melody

    Do Ti --- La Ti Do So -- La -- So So La Do

    Music is all about tension and release. However, you will never see the tension if you never simplify the tune first.

    Do you hear that beautiful bass pedal with the horns in the Stan Kenton arrangement?

    Anyone know what that is?

    Listen.

    It's a pedal to establish the key of the entire tune. Octaves of Bb with an embedded 5th from what I hear. Kenton and Bill Holman (I believe he arranged this piece for the album) knew what they were doing.

    So did Billy Strayhorn. So did Mozart. So did Beethoven. So did Bach.

    These are complete musical pieces, that's why I've always liked them more than bebop heads. I feel like it wasn't until Hardbop and whatever you wanna call what Miles did (cool or whatever, I love it!) that we got back to writing actual pieces of music and not just solipsistic pieces of technicality. I love later Parker for that reason, especially Parker with strings. It's at that point in his career that he realized that he could say something deeply profound and beautiful with the new language that he pioneered.
    Last edited by Irez87; 12-24-2015 at 11:03 AM.

  23. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Remember that these were compositions, originally. They were not vehicles for soloing over. There is a macro analysis that many of us gloss over.
    Vehicles for soloing over? A great tune is a great tune. Great tunes are better to solo over. I don't know who is glossing over. Honestly, I would appreciate anyone's analysis. It sounds like a defensive response to an argument which was never made.

    I don't think anyone's discounting the melody or the overall harmony . The harmony here really doesn't mean as much WITHOUT the melody . It's precisely THAT juxtaposition (of the mostly diatonic melody) against the interesting changes which MAKES it special though. Doesn't it?

    Even if you look at the vanilla changes, the first chord is A7. He's basically laying the gauntlet down with the first chord. A7 with the Bb in the melody gets you pretty easily to em7b5. Is the em7b5 really just Gm6? At a certain point, who cares? Why not both? Being able to go different directions with things is part of the appeal to it, being jazz and all.

    I'll agree with you that the melody, taken by itself, is beautiful, and has a lot to teach in terms of tension and release , with respect to tonic. Lots of targeting devices there.... but a lot of us are trying to learn to just basically make the changes. That's a worthy goal in the beginning, in and of itself. A lot of the lessons the melody teaches, in the beginning, are really about how to interact with harmony , how the melody can shape and influence the harmony , how a melody is also shaped by the harmony at times.

    But at a certain point, it's pretty valuable, as a student, to start with the way Miles and others played it and not reinvent the wheel. At a certain point, you need to be able to outline these changes, and I think that's been the focus of a lot of the analysis.

  24. #73
    destinytot Guest
    A7b9: A C# E G Bb --> 7 b3 #11 R
    b9 in the bass - yummy! (I Like an A triad over a deep Bb as an opening chord.)

  25. #74

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    I think of Stella as a series of movements, targets, if you will. The overall key is pretty unimportant to me on this one, because it dodges it so much.

  26. #75

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    I did this quite a while ago. Would appreciate feedback.