December 2015 - Stella By Starlight

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff, in bar 17 of Howie's score (that would be bar 13 without the 4-bar intro) you are playing a Bb in the bass. I've seen a couple of charts with a Bb chord there, yet Howie has an F. The melody is Eb, so I played it as an F7, but I'm not convinced about the chord. Any thoughts on this?

Also, (1-minute mark) I love your sub for the BbMaj7 (bars 17&18, Howie's score). From what I can make out you are playing a low E, the tritone note, with a BbMaj6/7 above it. Very cool. I'm going to steal that one

But what are you doing right at the beginning for the A7b9? It looks like you have an open A, G on 4, C# on 3, then instead of playing an F on 2, you stretch all the way back to play it on 1 at the first fret. Is there anything on 2? C? So, are you subbing the A7b9 with A7#5#9? Whatever it is, I like it.

And (if you don't mind all these questions!) what are you playing for the G+ chord in bar 21? Looks like a Galt/D. Sounds great. I was using an augmented chord.

Hey Rob, thanks!

So, sorta in order...

That second chord is supposed to have a C and F on top, but i'm not sure the C happened so I'm just thinking Aalt.

As for bar 13, i'm not sure...I see myself going to Fmaj7, followed by the minor in V in the next bar, where I put a Bb in the bass of the Em7b5 chord...it's like a Bb6#11 or something, but it's just E half diminished to me. I think that's what you're hearing in the other spot too...

And yes, I guess the G+ chord i'm grabbing is like a b9b13, since I put the D in the bass...sounds ok to me, I went with it

Wow, I think I just realized I have no idea what i'm playing sometimes. Great for "cool kid" cache, lousy for a teacher though! Looks like I need to start the weird and narcissistic-feeling process of transcribing myself every now and then!

[Rob MacKillop]

Cheers, Jeff. Appreciated.

[wizard3739]

Well, a favorite tune of mine, so I had to get in this month...trying a few different things out, but as always, trying to leave space. Hope you enjoy, and if there's something you like, let's discuss...heck, if there's something you don't like, let's talk about that too, because that's important

!

really nice chord melody Jeff, I had to listen a few times to catch much of the good harmony you put into your version. As usual, it was well done with a lot of thought and "feel" for the melody line. I liked it all and look forward to your next input.

best wishes
wiz (Howie)

[Jehu]

Nice, Jehu. I keep wishing I could see the headstock on that guitar, man, like, what is that you play? Your own private luthier? ;-)

Your wish is my command!

[Jehu]

Well I finally got a chance to listen to all of the submissions from the past couple of days, and I officially declare this the best Practical Standards thread of recent history. Incredible playing from incredible players. Jaw-dropping stuff from Jeff, as is to be expected.

Here's my first version. Quick and Dirty. I'm planning on doing a slow one too later in the month.
Editing is horrible.

Quick and dirty my ass! I really, really enjoyed this one.

This* a chorus of improvisation/noodling over an Aebersold track:

Destiny, I think this video disqualifies you from the "struggling to get to a basic performance level" thread. You've got some pretty nice lines happening here.

Here's a couple of old ones

Awesome stuff, Paul, but I'm afraid these don't count. You'll need to record new ones for us.

[destinytot]

Destiny, I think this video disqualifies you from the "struggling to get to a basic performance level" thread. You've got some pretty nice lines happening here.

Thanks, man! I sing EVERYTHING (chord tones and lines) in context (repertoire) at a piano, and I have a lot of phrases from which to draw - because I only sing and play what I like (working with my nervous system, rather than against it).

But I am struggling - and the gloves are off in the battle with myself. I'm determined to get past my current limitations and play any song, on my own terms (i.e. in a manner that suits my temperament) and in my own style.

[mr. beaumont]

Wow, this is a great month, great submissions...tonight I shall listen closer to everybody's and offer some individual comments, while sipping a little bourbon. So those at the beginning of the thread....your comments might actually make sense.

[pkirk]

Awesome stuff, Paul, but I'm afraid these don't count. You'll need to record new ones for us.

Thanks Jehu. I've been in Germany for 5 months with just my tele, no amp, no recording set-up, so I had to dredge up some recordings that were in the nether regions of my laptop to participate. They are both from 2013, so not super old.

[boatheelmusic]

For me, and others similarly less experienced, a big part of this month has been the depth of technical analysis from Rob, Paul, Jeff and others further on down the road. And I think that hopefully could be a recurring focus going forward for everyone's benefit to make this thread all it can be!

[dogletnoir]

Well, it's getting late in the month, and i feel like i need to post something,
so here's my first rough attempt at it:
Stella By Starlight

i knew this one was going to be hard for me, and i need to keep working on this, so i might have another go before the end of the year, other commitments permitting.

[NSJ]

I've never done one of these monthly things, but give me a couple days I'll have a go at this. Because I'm going target the reduced Melody, which is something that is not done as much.

I've written out a 32 bar chart with one whole note per measure ---each note represents the most essential Melody note. You can even compress the 32 measures to 4 measures and transform those whole notes into 8th notes. That will give you a better indication of what the reduced melody line sounds like as a stream of eighth notes.

The way you work through it is you sing The essential notes, and perform rhythmic and melodic permutations and targeting on them, like playing changes but not with the changes, but with the essential melody condensed and stripped bare. .

[Rob MacKillop]

I've never done one of these monthly things, but give me a couple days I'll have a go at this. Because I'm going target the reduced Melody, which is something that is not done as much.

I've written out a 32 bar chart with one whole note per measure ---each note represents the most essential Melody note. You can even compress the 32 measures to 4 measures and transform those whole notes into 8th notes. That will give you a better indication of what the reduced melody line sounds like as a stream of eighth notes.

The way you work through it is you sing The essential notes, and perform rhythmic and melodic permutations and targeting on them, like playing changes but not with the changes, but with the essential melody condensed and stripped bare. .

Looking forward to this, Navdeep. It's an approach I've never encountered before. Sounds interesting.

[matt.guitarteacher]

OK, I've never done one of these monthly practical standards, so I thought I'd give it a go. I've never played Stella before.

I'm trying to make sense of the score. Comments on this analysis welcome:

Intro: I VI ii V in Bb

Bars 5&6 ii V in Dm
7&8 ii V in Bb
9&10&11 ii V I in Eb
12&13 two "random" secondary chords: Ab13 and F7 (the 7 is in the melody)
14&15 ii V i in Dm
16 ii V in Ab
17 "random" chord FMaj7
18 ii V in Dm or D
19&20 ii V in G
21 to 24 V i in Cm
25 and 27 "random" Ab7b5 (b5 in melody) and BbMaj9 (9 in melody)
28&29 ii V in Dm
30&31 ii V in Cm (down a tone from above)
33 to 36 ii V I in Bb (down a tone from above)

Looking at this yesterday, it occurs to me that the first bar of the chorus is probably just a sub for G minor with passing diminished. Resolutions to nowhere make more sense in this light. 625 progression.

Then later the same chords are used more functionally as minor 2 5. this thing is really a workshop on the modal interchange, especially using min7b5/ min6 and dim/7b9 as avenues to other tonal areas.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Looking at this yesterday, it occurs to me that the first bar of the chorus is probably just a sub for G minor with passing diminished.

Nevermind...

Dude, this tune. Looking at the vanilla changes: http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/s28.html
Don't know if that simplifies anything for me....

[Vladan]

I thought, instead of looking at what someone else ended with, analysing and learning it, why not start from the
basic and do it on my own? Sorry i made it too simple. I always seem to forget how serious business this Jazz guitar is.
No place for fun, joke and good time. Just pain, endless learning and fake grin on the gig.

Now, if you could tell me, why would anybody in his sane mind harmonize note A with Em7b5 (Not to Wiz's account)?
IMO, There's no reason. In practice, listening to what people actually play, they do not play that b5(+11) below that
4(11). Usually they play them one after another. Other play long intros to establish some sonic environment where it
will, sort of, work, but even then many opt to obscure melody after all, because it can not work, not really.
Why is it written that way then? To make it appear more difficult than what it really is?

I've posed simillar questions on occasions and do not need all the same answers once again, but do not hesitate,
there's always someone fresh enough to learn something from it.

[M-ster]

... Now, if you could tell me, why would anybody in his sane mind harmonize note A with Em7b5 ... ?

Some comments:

(1) Barry Harris asserts that the change in bar 1 originally was Bb dim 7 (in Bb, the key you're describing). This makes the A a major 7th on a diminished voicing. In other words, a tension or extension (depending on your terminology preference). It's a nice change, if you want to try it.

(2) Often, jazz reharmonizations seek to substitute changes that move the melody notes away from more vanilla functions (roots, thirds, fifths) to higher tension/extension functions against the harmony. This creates a more "jazzy" flavor (to me, anyway) ... but YMMV. In this case, the A becomes tension 11 on the E-7b5. You'll find this harmony (-7b5(11)) in *many* standards.

(3) I tend to believe that using Bb dim 7 or E-7b5 to A7 in bar 1 is a deception. It might be natural to expect the I chord (i.e., Bbmaj7) in bar 1, especially when returning to the top from a turnaround at the end of a chorus. So, using the Bb dim or the ii - V that starts on #IV of the key is a clever (if you will) misdirection.

Finally, try this voicing under the A (nothing new, but I love it):

x 7 8 7 7 5

[Vladan]

... I always thought we were friends? ...

XX2333 - Call it Em7b5, C9, Gm6, whatever. Add the A: XX2335 - You get basic melody which harmonizes with any of those chords and the b5 is there. That's Mickey Baker stuff, vanilla jazz. Maybe we're talking about different things? Anyway, nobody was telling anyone else what to play as far as I saw. Sorry for any offense.

Don't worry, we are friends, no offense taken (but stay alert, with friends like me, who need ...). Hope you won't take all this to much to heart. I made it sound much worse than I tought it was, or wanted it to be. And thanks for explaanation. And, yes, A does sound good on top of that chord.

Some comments:

(1) Barry Harris asserts that the change in bar 1 originally was Bb dim 7 (in Bb, the key you're describing). This makes the A a major 7th on a diminished voicing. In other words, a tension or extension (depending on your terminology preference). It's a nice change, if you want to try it.

(2) Often, jazz reharmonizations seek to substitute changes that move the melody notes away from more vanilla functions (roots, thirds, fifths) to higher tension/extension functions against the harmony. This creates a more "jazzy" flavor (to me, anyway) ... but YMMV. In this case, the A becomes tension 11 on the E-7b5. You'll find this harmony (-7b5(11)) in *many* standards.

(3) I tend to believe that using Bb dim 7 or E-7b5 to A7 in bar 1 is a deception. It might be natural to expect the I chord (i.e., Bbmaj7) in bar 1, especially when returning to the top from a turnaround at the end of a chorus. So, using the Bb dim or the ii - V that starts on #IV of the key is a clever (if you will) misdirection.

Finally, try this voicing under the A (nothing new, but I love it):

x 7 8 7 7 5

Thank you M-Ster
Whatever is played, under whatever name, they are all subs for BbMaj7, in the first bar, IMO and respectfully for the plain chords I wrote. So, from BbMaj7 to Gm7 to
Bb6 to Bbdim to Em7b5 ,,, and so on, as Mat did mention above, it's all that same tonic.
BTW, that reccomended voicing, I could not play it even if I wanted to, though I do recognize in it some segments I use, in 2, 3 and 4 strings sets and not strictly for the chord by the name of..., but for harmonizing in scalar manner, so to say, although I don't think I'd be playing that F# too much. For the 5 strings chord I'd have to play B string at 5th fret, not because F# does, or does not sound good, but because I can not force my fingers in position.

[55bar]

nice playing to everyone who posted.

I wanted to pass along one tiny variation that is kind of hip: at the very end, when it goes

Em7b5/A7/Dm7b5/G7/cm7b5/F7/Bb/Bb,

try instead

Em7b5/A7/Dm7b5/G7/ Dbm11-Gb7/cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb.

If you really want to milk it, you can do a whole chromatic descending thing there

Fm11-Bb7/Em7b5-A7/Ebm11-Ab7/Dm7b5-G7/Dbm11-Gb7/Cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb

at reasonable tempi you can outline the changes in your single line playing and it creates tension against the harmony that keeps resolving itself-sort of- until you hit the Bb where it finally resolves. It also works with the melody if you put those 11ths on top.

and if you really want to reharmonize you can try

Fm11/Bb7/Ebm11/Ab7/Dbm11-Gb7/Cm7b5-F7/Bb/Bb

Love that re harm. I learned it as

"if the m7b5 chord has the minor 3rd in the melody, you can play a ii-v a SEMITONE ABOVE.

[Irez87]

How come no one posted this version:

I love that intro so so so much!

[Irez87]

By the way, if I were to go back to my pedestal, I would say that what makes Stella interesting is that it flirts between Gm and Bb major for the entire tune.

For those of you singers out there (Destiny and Vintage), try singing this tune with chromatic solfege and keep playing Bb as a drone against everything. Through simplification you will find beauty and complication than using rote theory. Actually, you need theory to see how the tune orbits back to Bb.

Try it, I will

[Irez87]

I think Vlad is on to something.

Remember that these were compositions, originally. They were not vehicles for soloing over. There is a macro analysis that many of us gloss over.

The tune is in Bb and flirts with Gm.

I would do another pod cast with a drone to prove this, but that would make y'all go cashew nuts.

Take that first string of harmony and think home key of Bb

Em7b5/ A7/ C-7 / F7/ Fm7/ Bb7/ Ebmaj7/ Ab7/ Bbmaj7

#ivm7b5/ VIIdom7/ iim7/ Vdom7/ vmi7 (inner guide tone movement)/ Idom7 (deceptive home base)/ IVmaj7/ bVIIdom7/ HOME BASE

Now look at the melody

Do Ti --- La Ti Do So -- La -- So So La Do

Music is all about tension and release. However, you will never see the tension if you never simplify the tune first.

Do you hear that beautiful bass pedal with the horns in the Stan Kenton arrangement?

Anyone know what that is?

Listen.

It's a pedal to establish the key of the entire tune. Octaves of Bb with an embedded 5th from what I hear. Kenton and Bill Holman (I believe he arranged this piece for the album) knew what they were doing.

So did Billy Strayhorn. So did Mozart. So did Beethoven. So did Bach.

These are complete musical pieces, that's why I've always liked them more than bebop heads. I feel like it wasn't until Hardbop and whatever you wanna call what Miles did (cool or whatever, I love it!) that we got back to writing actual pieces of music and not just solipsistic pieces of technicality. I love later Parker for that reason, especially Parker with strings. It's at that point in his career that he realized that he could say something deeply profound and beautiful with the new language that he pioneered.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Remember that these were compositions, originally. They were not vehicles for soloing over. There is a macro analysis that many of us gloss over.

Vehicles for soloing over? A great tune is a great tune. Great tunes are better to solo over. I don't know who is glossing over. Honestly, I would appreciate anyone's analysis. It sounds like a defensive response to an argument which was never made.

I don't think anyone's discounting the melody or the overall harmony . The harmony here really doesn't mean as much WITHOUT the melody . It's precisely THAT juxtaposition (of the mostly diatonic melody) against the interesting changes which MAKES it special though. Doesn't it?

Even if you look at the vanilla changes, the first chord is A7. He's basically laying the gauntlet down with the first chord. A7 with the Bb in the melody gets you pretty easily to em7b5. Is the em7b5 really just Gm6? At a certain point, who cares? Why not both? Being able to go different directions with things is part of the appeal to it, being jazz and all.

I'll agree with you that the melody, taken by itself, is beautiful, and has a lot to teach in terms of tension and release , with respect to tonic. Lots of targeting devices there.... but a lot of us are trying to learn to just basically make the changes. That's a worthy goal in the beginning, in and of itself. A lot of the lessons the melody teaches, in the beginning, are really about how to interact with harmony , how the melody can shape and influence the harmony , how a melody is also shaped by the harmony at times.

But at a certain point, it's pretty valuable, as a student, to start with the way Miles and others played it and not reinvent the wheel. At a certain point, you need to be able to outline these changes, and I think that's been the focus of a lot of the analysis.

[destinytot]

A7b9: A C# E G Bb --> 7 b3 #11 R

b9 in the bass - yummy! (I Like an A triad over a deep Bb as an opening chord.)

[mr. beaumont]

I think of Stella as a series of movements, targets, if you will. The overall key is pretty unimportant to me on this one, because it dodges it so much.

[Patriots2006]

I did this quite a while ago. Would appreciate feedback.

[Irez87]

I have to fill in the harmony with actual chords to make this work.

Listen to that Stan Kenton cut, Bill Holman is a very interesting arranger. He's my favorite, I got into him in college.

I have to record another cut before the month is over.

[destinytot]

Found this video of Barry Harris looking at Stella:

[Irez87]

Swinging, as always, Mr. Hep.

I must say, you have become the master around these parts at playing jazz that actually makes people want to get up and dance again.

That's no small feat, brotha.

I have time to read about Margaritas for once. I'll have to hit you up for all of the historical references.

[NSJ]

Well, I was finally able to do a quick rubato version. The recording levels are way too low, I am a Luddite, recording is intimidating to me, I think there are some limiters someone put in on my H6 (it was used to record a live show by my friend for his band). Anyway...better or for worse--the latter, of course, which means back to the ol drawing board. I missed some key target notes at the end, tried to use diminished harmony, also Gm6 and Gbm6.

Tried to.

[Hep To The Jive]

Thanks Irez and Wizard!

Irez, you're back! Glad to see ya here, I saw your thread about piano players, and I think I know the inspiration behind it , hahaha. Prolly the same one that made me stop going to that jam session around where I live, because what's the point?

[Irez87]

Thanks Irez and Wizard!

Irez, you're back! Glad to see ya here, I saw your thread about piano players, and I think I know the inspiration behind it , hahaha. Prolly the same one that made me stop going to that jam session around where I live, because what's the point?

Dude, I am around. We should play again. Winegasm has an open jam now...

And yes, that pianist

The key word is was Kenny G.'s pianist. That dude needs to work on listening and then he'd be on a whole nother level. Right now, he is ridiculous, but think of what he could be...

Whatever.

Hit me up, gangstar!

[lawson-stone]

Could you post a sound file or something so we could hear the way the analysis prompts you to play fresh lines? I appreciate theory and tradition in jazz, but I also need to hear the theory becoming sound waves. I'd love to hear your handling of the melody and even some improvisation.

Not necessarily a defensive argument, more so another legitimate perspective that is often silenced by "traditional" theory.

Outlining the changes only works if you know how it all fits together computationally. I've been taking lessons with musicians who don't play the guitar and that's the take away. There's good reason why Wes's solos always sounded above and beyond Pat Martino and others. Wes understood the concept of composition and development. He knew how to tell a story. You can certainly do that by grounding yourself in the changes, but there is much much more to music than outlining changes.

Bach was beautiful because he knew how to evoke tension and release and develop a composition. He wasn't beautiful because he simply knew how to "outline changes"

However, outlining changes is not easy. I agree that you have to do that as well.

Try to outline the changes while thinking of the home key

In Bbmajor:

Em7b5: E G Bb D --> #11 6 R 3

A7b9: A C# E G Bb --> 7 b3 #11 R

Cm7: C Eb G Bb --> 9 11 6 R

F7: F A C Eb --> 5 7 9 11

Fm7: F Ab C Eb --> 5 b7 9 11 (see what happened to the 7?)

Bb7: Bb D F Ab --> R 3 5 b7 (almost home)

Ebmaj: Eb G Bb D --> 11 6 R 3

Ab7: Ab C Eb Gb --> b7 9 11 b6 (flirting with Bb minor, I love this cadence)

Bbmajor: Home

I just get peeved when I see other people's perspectives, when I've studied the tradition (in college and beyond), and when I understand the theory... but I offer a different perspective and it gets shot down. Especially when this is a perspective I've learned from other top musicians. I want to share something that helped me move past my musical barriers. This analysis is a huge part of that.

Not saying that to you, Matt. Guitar, just a general plea to the forum.

[Irez87]

I definitely could, lawson-stone.

The last pod cast I did was proving that Giant Steps and all jazz revolves (orbits) around one macro key center. I sung solfege and outlined chords by relating everything to B major.

I could do the same, and have the drone be very faint.

I did the process before and got mixed results, so I need the forum's help with the next podcast

My notes were:

1. Don't leave the drone on the entire pod cast

2. Talk louder

3. Sing or don't sing (my voice ins't great, can you stomach that?)

4. Play lines based off of the concept

What else should I do? I have fun doing these pod cast things, but they take time. I want them to be helpful. I also want them to introduce people to new ideas. However, I don't want to assume that same pedantic role that I've often taken when discussing ear training. That's my fault, I accept that. I just want to give another perspective.

You guys decide, your input will tell me how to plan the Stella pod cast. Honestly, the pod cast helps me learn the tune.

That last cut was really rough because it was improvised. I'm not happy with it. Too choppy, no drive. I tried to think of the guitar as a big band orchestra. I want to prove that the guitar can be just as versatile as the piano.

By the way, Bill Holman. Check him out! Great big band arranger!

[targuit]

I am actually learning this song this early morning before dawn. I have never really studied Stella, but what a genial composition! I created a transcription from a lead sheet of the chords, melody and lyrics, then transposed down to a comfortable vocal key. I ended up in Eb for the intro verse - "Have you seen Stella by Starlight....". Then, the key of F for the verse - "The song a robin sings..."

Although I start from a lead sheet as "Eb - Gm7 / Fm7 .... " and melody line, I put in some block chords for me to improvise off. This is where these notation programs like Sibelius really help in terms of rehearsing the song, the melody and accompaniment as well as improvising over the tune.

Funny that I have "known" this song forever but never really learned it. Beautiful tune. I'll try to record something soon.

[destinytot]

​I've had a breakthrough with something which, for anyone with formal training, may seem obvious. If it is, I apologise.

But my hope is that what I'm learning may help anyone who, like me, is struggling to learn to use it. (I think these things are best demonstrated on video, and I'd be pleased to post one if anyone's interested.)

I'd been worried that I might never manage to apply it to challenging melodic lines - but chromatic solfège has clicked.

I've understood where I was going wrong: I'd been choosing syllables by analysing functions and relating altered notes to the key of their modulation.

I found that so difficult that I'd usually either give up - or do the same with numbers, which I can do, and which is what told me something was wrong... because the way I'd been using it didn't give my ear a good enough reference to be of any practical help.

But when that reference remains the tonic of the home key (i.e. don't define it by temporary/new key centres), it's much easier to use chromatic solfège.

And I think chromatic solfège is more helpful than numbers; I don't consider singing the syllables "sharp e-le-ven" to be a big deal or an inconvenience, but I do think ambiguity is potentially confusing. Numbers seem to be better suited for identifying chord tones and alterations, and chromatic solfège for melodies.

So, for example, in bar 10 of Stella, Fi (tense syllable 'fee') is the 5th of A7b9 - and in bars 29 and 30, Le (lax syllable 'lay') signifies the b5 of Cm7b5 and the b9 of F7b9.

[destinytot]

I am actually learning this song this early morning before dawn. I have never really studied Stella, but what a genial composition! I created a transcription from a lead sheet of the chords, melody and lyrics, then transposed down to a comfortable vocal key. I ended up in Eb for the intro verse - "Have you seen Stella by Starlight....". Then, the key of F for the verse - "The song a robin sings..."

Although I start from a lead sheet as "Eb - Gm7 / Fm7 .... " and melody line, I put in some block chords for me to improvise off. This is where these notation programs like Sibelius really help in terms of rehearsing the song, the melody and accompaniment as well as improvising over the tune.

Funny that I have "known" this song forever but never really learned it. Beautiful tune. I'll try to record something soon.

Great stuff!

I've just started using a melodica; a breath-controlled (harmonica-like sound!), polyphonic mini-keyboard - and a perfect complement to guitar (as an ear training reference for singers and non-singers alike).

[Irez87]

​So, for example, in bar 10 of Stella, Fi (tense syllable 'fee') is the 5th of A7b9 - and in bars 29 and 30, Le (lax syllable 'lay') signifies the b5 of Cm7b5 and the b9 of F7b9.

That's exactly it!

Finally, someone is getting hip to how Charlie Banaco's method works.

Keep at it, and you will uncover how music really works

I gotta own it and say, people will disagree until they really try that method. Until then, to each his or her own.

Just glad to see another person here trying that method of chromatic solfege. That's how I am studying Stella right now!

[NSJ]

Giving this tune the Barry Harris treatment

Gb-6 (for the F7, or V chord )
G-6 (for the Em7b5 change )
A dim ( also for the dominant function )
Bb6 (tonic)
Abdim ( for the VI7 chord )

Lots of great possibilities.

[Irez87]

I gotta get the second volume of BH's workshop (the first one is killer!). Alan's book is amazing (and quite the endeavor), but I wanna learn from the source. I am sure that Alan got more out of writing the book and working with BH than anyone who is just studying Alan's book. Get my drift?

Still, I have Alan's book and go through it every now and then after I go through some of GVE's mechanisms for harmony on guitar.

[Irez87]

Tomorrow, I want to record a cut of me with Wiz's backing track. Some tasty comping there, and if we can't play together... then why not?

[NSJ]

I gotta get the second volume of BH's workshop (the first one is killer!). Alan's book is amazing (and quite the endeavor), but I wanna learn from the source. I am sure that Alan got more out of writing the book and working with BH than anyone who is just studying Alan's book. Get my drift?

Still, I have Alan's book and go through it every now and then after I go through some of GVE's mechanisms for harmony on guitar.

I ordered Alan's book and it should be coming in the next few days. I also saw the four hour Barry Harris videos for sele-- can you give a concrete assessment of volume one and what it offers that is different then what Alan provides, other than Alan being more guitar specific obviously.

I have already worked through Rony Ben Hurr's materials, and he is also a student of the Barry Harris system. So I am familiar with this already.
I presume that much of Alan's book will be duplicative of Rony's, but I hope it offers a more concrete exclamation of certain aspects .
Thanks .

PS-- we should all await the master classes of Barry Harris's greatest student -Pasquale Grasso! that guy is out of this world. Absolutely ridiculous how good he is.

[lawson-stone]

I've not heard your playing, and I am especially challenged by this tune, so I'd love to hear your handling of it. You mentioned something being "rough because it's improvised" but I thought jazz was supposed to be improvised. Anyhow, it would be fun to hear how this actually ends up as played, not as a theory discussion.

I definitely could, lawson-stone.

The last pod cast I did was proving that Giant Steps and all jazz revolves (orbits) around one macro key center. I sung solfege and outlined chords by relating everything to B major.

I could do the same, and have the drone be very faint.

I did the process before and got mixed results, so I need the forum's help with the next podcast

My notes were:

1. Don't leave the drone on the entire pod cast

2. Talk louder

3. Sing or don't sing (my voice ins't great, can you stomach that?)

4. Play lines based off of the concept

What else should I do? I have fun doing these pod cast things, but they take time. I want them to be helpful. I also want them to introduce people to new ideas. However, I don't want to assume that same pedantic role that I've often taken when discussing ear training. That's my fault, I accept that. I just want to give another perspective.

You guys decide, your input will tell me how to plan the Stella pod cast. Honestly, the pod cast helps me learn the tune.

That last cut was really rough because it was improvised. I'm not happy with it. Too choppy, no drive. I tried to think of the guitar as a big band orchestra. I want to prove that the guitar can be just as versatile as the piano.

By the way, Bill Holman. Check him out! Great big band arranger!

[Vladan]

I've not heard your playing, and I am especially challenged by this tune, so I'd love to hear your handling of it. You mentioned something being "rough because it's improvised" but I thought jazz was supposed to be improvised. Anyhow, it would be fun to hear how this actually ends up as played, not as a theory discussion.

Why don't you click on his SoundCloud link, couple of messages above? Accompanying text says "more experimental", or alike. Of all his posts, this one resembles music the most. I could actually listen to it, even enjoy it for a while before headache struck.

[Irez87]

Oh, Vlad...

Thanks for the compliment.

NSJ,

The first volume of BH's workshop book deals more with single line studies, but there is a short section on his harmony conception as well.

What I meant by improvised is that some of the "movements" (as BH and GVE call them, horizontal harmony is what I subscribe to) are improvised and some of the "chord shapes" are improvised.

I think Steve Herberman refers to the idea of improvised chord forms as "a la carte" comping.

That's why the tempo was slower and rubato at points. I want to work that up to where I can access it on the fly. Right now, when I play jam sessions, I still use a lot of traditional voicings.

For me, not everyone, but for me, I want to comp in a way that is totally responsive to the soloist. That means utilizing counterpoint, progressions within progressions, pedal point, spread voices, closed voices. That also means that nothing is pre-rehearsed. No traditional voicings. Fragments of this, fragments of that. Constant movement. Tension and release done in a chordal manner.

My end goal is to sound like an improvise orchestra. That may sound crazy, but I am doing crazy in depth ear training to get to that point. Give me 10 more years and I will be closer to that goal. I love the journey, so I can be patient. Once I get there... Music making will never be the same.

I gotta be braver with using this concept during performances. It's frightening to improvise all of these chordal movements with partial harmonies, counter point, and all that, on the fly. It's frightening because I make a lot more mistakes that way. I want to default to what I know, but that would go against my point. But I know it will be worth it. My gut tells me so...

[Hep To The Jive]

I like it. Everyone seems to default to the slow, moody, almost bogged-down ballad format, but you've given it a nice up-tempo treatment that reminds me a bit of Birelli Lagrene. Nicely done!

Thanks man! Birelli Lagrene, nice! Here's the thing: most of my gigs are swing/Gypsy jazz/jump blues bound music. In other words I gravitate toward more rhythm driven, steady pulse approach.

I can't help but being influenced by Gypsy players like Birelli, having a bit of Gypsy blood in me Still, my goal is to absorb more American influences- CC, Wes, Benson, Scofield- that's the jazz I've been listening to mostly. One can only try!

[lawson-stone]

Thanks man! Birelli Lagrene, nice! Here's the thing: most of my gigs are swing/Gypsy jazz/jump blues bound music. In other words I gravitate toward more rhythm driven, steady pulse approach.

I can't help but being influenced by Gypsy players like Birelli, having a bit of Gypsy blood in me Still, my goal is to absorb more American influences- CC, Wes, Benson, Scofield- that's the jazz I've been listening to mostly. One can only try!

Whatever it is you're trying to do, I'd say you're making excellent progress. I hear you guys and realize just how rudimentary my own playing is. Not putting myself down, just saying that in this group the pitching is pretty fast!

[Irez87]

here is a post of me playing more hot, i.e. more double time.

Playing convincing double time lines is really hard...

But here is what I got thus far:

I find that my tone diminishes as I shift into double time mode, I don't like that and will be addressing it with my own practice. Dave Frank said in his youtube videos that the end of the double time lines is more important than the content, so I tried to keep that in mind. Improvising double time is really hard on the guitar, because everything has to lay exactly so to make the line fluid. So far my double time is positional, and my normal stuff is more horizontal. I want to get my double time to be more horizontal on the neck, as it makes the melodic content of the line more interesting.

Cannonaball Adderley, IMO, has the best double time sound. His lines seem to cascade and push the time, the double time has a purpose and isn't a flourish. I can't say that about a lot of the other musicians I listen to, especially guitarists. On guitar, double time sounds too percussive. Johnny Smith has a way around it, and I have been studying his method. Anyway, let me know what you think.

[PaulD]

Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

[Irez87]

Lots of very nice versions of this great song! I haven't posted anything in quite a while, so as long as I had some time I recorded this tonight

Shit, man, that playing hit me deep.

That's some tone you got there and you used it to tell a story. I dunno you personally, but you sound like a deep dude just by the music that you weave. Can you give me some pointers on double time, that's what's been giving me trouble at my stage of the musical journey.

[targuit]

Beautiful, Paul! Could you reveal your gear and set up? Your playing and tone sound great!