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  1. #1

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    some dide from Romania bastigrosu@yahoo.com scanned my 300 page sheets of sound for guitar book and posted it on scribd. Took me a few days but I finally got it removed.

    Anyone know this cat? looking for a strongman in Romania, lol...

    But seriously, any of you guys with books out need to be aware that idiots like this guy are posting your works for free where anyone can download it. I had noticed my sales declined by 50% last month and this is probably why...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    That really sucks Jack. It is frustrating to know that basically anybody can do this and make an already difficult business even more difficult. It is a sad time for musicians trying to make ends meet :-(

  4. #3

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    I hate the internet sometimes.

    "Scribd" is the pit of hell for copyright infringement. That site shouldn't exist, imho.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  5. #4
    it's also mind boggling that someone took my 300 page book, pulled the pages out, scanned 300 pages to PDF and published it on scribd. That took a lot of effort. I would love to find someone who knows this dude. I emailed him but he ignored me

  6. #5

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    That's the real deal. How can an act like that be viewed as anything other than malicious? There is no "I didn't know better" excuse when it comes to scribd.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #6
    and it's more than that. It's not like I provided a PDF file ever so it was a two-act process. Scan it to PDF with the intent on pirating it and then uploading it. Someone ought to break his fingers.

  8. #7

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    I think that stinks, Jack. I'm glad you got it taken down.

    As you say, that took a bit of work on his part, but he didn't make any money out of it, so why would he do that? Maybe he feels like he's some sort of Robin Hood.

    To be clear: I am NOT defending his actions. I think what he did was wrong. Things like this remind of guys I knew in seminary--some of them are priests now, and good guys---who had a complete blind spot about Napster. (Long gone now, but all the rage then, it allowed people to download music for free.) Some of these guys had been toying with computers since before they started first grade. They had a "damn the man" attitude toward piracy.(Not all of them, of course, but many.) They didn't even think it was a moral issue, much less an immoral act. I think if they were paying, say, a quarter a piece for songs, they would have realized that was wrong, but since no money was changing hands, they didn't see any harm. And I mean that literally: they could not SEE the wrong in this.

    Your "friend" in Romania might think he is helping out poor musicians and getting your stuff more widely circulated. Again, I'm not defending that. I agree with you that it is wrong. But I wonder if he knows it is wrong and chose to do it anyway or actually thought it was a good (or at least licit) thing to do.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  9. #8

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    He obviously thought a lot of your work!

    It can be construed as flattering, depending on how you look at it.

  10. #9
    strange ohio men?!? I think your comments went over my head. Bottom line is that it's illegal and for good reason. Ignorance of the law and good intentions do not shield you from responsibility. Bottom line is that my sales fell 50% last month. Coincidence? Dunno...

  11. #10

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    What did it take to remove your book from ScribD Jack ? Did anyone try and remove unauthorized clips from YouTube ? I wonder how diligent and quick they are since piracy probably increases traffic for the paid stuff also.

  12. #11

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    Jack,
    I'm sorry to hear this. I've had it happen also. Glad you got it removed.
    Regards,
    Jerome

  13. #12

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    Try this one. Doug McKenzie is a retired jazz pedagogue who has a fabulous jazz piano channel on YT replete with great musical improvisations he records and films as a clip with theoretical commentary and virtual midi piano and standard notation. An excellent site. The other day I was checking out a "new" video of a piece that he had recorded originally years before and which midi files he had posted on a jazz site years back. Turn out someone had recorded his music and put it out as his own playing and actually selling the mp3 or whatever. Doug succeeded I believe in getting the recording taken down off the download sites, but how ridiculous is that?

  14. #13

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    Holy cow, I hadn't thought about the fact that he had to scan 300(!) pages in. That's not just stupid and illegal, it's also nuts!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Try this one. Doug McKenzie is a retired jazz pedagogue who has a fabulous jazz piano channel on YT replete with great musical improvisations he records and films as a clip with theoretical commentary and virtual midi piano and standard notation. An excellent site. The other day I was checking out a "new" video of a piece that he had recorded originally years before and which midi files he had posted on a jazz site years back. Turn out someone had recorded his music and put it out as his own playing and actually selling the mp3 or whatever. Doug succeeded I believe in getting the recording taken down off the download sites, but how ridiculous is that?
    That's really sad and frustrating. I sometimes do long for the days before the Internet. I think a lot of us were better off. How can anybody be motivated anymore to publish great stuff (music, books, art,..). It's becoming almost impossible to make a living. The inherent anonymity creates a lot of problems. There is no recourse. Anybody can do whatever they want and unless you're a huge entity, there's no point in even trying to pursue any kind of legal action.

  16. #15

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    I've been in computer industry since the 80's and watching piracy of software, music, books, movies anything that can be digitized. For some reason people feel that since they can't hold it and sit in their bedroom unseen its okay to steal. I read all their justification popular one is "things are overpriced", well your stealing is driving the cost up for those that do pay. Then the "I can't afford it", life is tough and sometimes you can't have everything you want. My favorite is the one who complains about copyrights laws not being strong enough they should last till end of time and on and on, while they are downloading music and movies.

    What really sucks is where the industries are headed to combat this and that everything is going to become by subscription and you won't have a copy of anything. Music industry is already said that is where they plan on moving subscription access to music libraries, might be cheap now, but once they got the everyone then rates will go up. Apple started in with their OS and app's. Amazon just announced a subscription book service. So little by little you're going to rent. Then like Apple the terms of use will be a constant moving target, and what they make available will change an album you like today might not be available in a few months because the the record company raised their rates, so where you get your music dropped their catalogue.

    To these people is simply downloading a book or album, but the ramifications are going to screw everyone.

    Oh, good morning I better get some coffee now.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  17. #16

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    The two issues that need to be addressed are Accountability and Enforcement.

    If someone uploads intellectual property that is not theirs their name and ISP provider should be included in the upload. If this were implemented on sites such as Scribd there would be a way to call the uploader to account. Obviously this would be a larger problem with blatantly illegal sites such as Piratebay.

    As far as enforcement goes, the biggest problem is a lack of standards in international copyright laws and reciprocity agreements among countries.

    I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who have had books, DVDs and CDs published. We've all been hit and none of us are "stars", just working class musicians trying to stay ahead of the wolf.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by medblues View Post
    What did it take to remove your book from ScribD Jack ? Did anyone try and remove unauthorized clips from YouTube ? I wonder how diligent and quick they are since piracy probably increases traffic for the paid stuff also.
    they have a copyright infringement form in which you need to prove you are the copyright holder and author of the work. Fortunately, there is an amazon page showing them all this info which I sent them the link to.

  19. #18

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    Copyright infringement is no laughing matter, but here is something that is:

    "If someday we all go to prison for downloading music I hope they have the mercy to split us up by genre."
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  20. #19

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    will everyone who has never used an illegal fake book please stand up...that's different because...never mind...

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    they have a copyright infringement form in which you need to prove you are the copyright holder and author of the work. Fortunately, there is an amazon page showing them all this info which I sent them the link to.
    I had gotten their trial membership link and I downloaded a couple of books that are out of print plus some which I already own in hard copy format (saved myself the time to scan them). They are trying to be the Netflix of books. I can imagine people screen capturing the rental books and distributing them already.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    will everyone who has never used an illegal fake book please stand up...that's different because...never mind...
    does my almost forty year old copy of the Real Book Pacific Edition count. <grin>
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    will everyone who has never used an illegal fake book please stand up...that's different because...never mind...
    I never used an illegal fake book but I have taken paper clips and blank paper from work and never returned them.

  24. #23

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    I stole a switch tip off a tele at guitar center.

    I was 17. I had just bought my first tele there, which was missing a switch tip. I asked the salesman if he could take one off another tele. He said no, but offered to sell me a new switch assembly for ten bucks.

    I was justified.

    As for an illegal fakebook, yeah, I've used one...but I didn't buy it. Am I less guilty?

    I do see the illegal fakebooks as different...but I realize that's a slippery slope.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by medblues View Post
    I had gotten their trial membership link and I downloaded a couple of books that are out of print plus some which I already own in hard copy format (saved myself the time to scan them). They are trying to be the Netflix of books. I can imagine people screen capturing the rental books and distributing them already.
    No, they are not trying to be the netflix of books. That is what amazon prime unlimited is doing. What scribd is doing is what napster tried to do. They are offering subscriptions and when approached by the authorities for copyright violations, they are claiming they have no control over what their members are uploading. This is exactly the same stance that napster took.

    Scribd are crooks and are conveniently looking the other way for their own profit. If they were like netflix, they would be paying the authors who's books are being downloaded. The only way I even found out is that a friend of mine saw the book on their and alerted me to it. I had wondered why my sales had dropped by 50% and I'm guessing that had something to do with it.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    What scribd is doing is what napster tried to do. They are offering subscriptions and when approached by the authorities for copyright violations, they are claiming they have no control over what their members are uploading. This is exactly the same stance that napster took.
    Then can scribd be shut down the way Napster was???
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Then can scribd be shut down the way Napster was???
    Maybe If Metallica gets a tab book uploaded and Lars Ulrich gets involved...
    Kiddin aside, in the case of Napster the music industry was strong enough, don't know if book publishers association is that powerful...
    ...every note has an origin and a destination...
    - Tal Farlow

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    No, they are not trying to be the netflix of books. That is what amazon prime unlimited is doing. What scribd is doing is what napster tried to do. They are offering subscriptions and when approached by the authorities for copyright violations, they are claiming they have no control over what their members are uploading. This is exactly the same stance that napster took.

    Scribd are crooks and are conveniently looking the other way for their own profit. If they were like netflix, they would be paying the authors who's books are being downloaded. The only way I even found out is that a friend of mine saw the book on their and alerted me to it. I had wondered why my sales had dropped by 50% and I'm guessing that had something to do with it.
    They certainly are looking the other way counting on most people not (be able to) do what you did !

  29. #28

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    The internet has flourished because of free access to stolen intellectual property. Apple produced and marketed the iPOD before there was such a thing as a legal music download. That helped twist the moral values of a generation towards internet piracy.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loobs View Post
    Sucks that it got taken down. I would've liked to get hold of it.
    you realize the person who started this thread is the author of the book. He will gladly sell you a legal copy of the book, then you can feel good your supporting musicians.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loobs View Post
    Sucks that it got taken down. I would've liked to get hold of it.
    It was easy to get hold of it, I did 2 months ago right here :
    Sheets of Sound Buy Now
    ...every note has an origin and a destination...
    - Tal Farlow

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loobs View Post
    Sucks that it got taken down. I would've liked to get hold of it.
    Yes, why don't you just buy it in the UK from Lulu.com here:
    Sheets of Sound for Guitar Vol I by Jack Zucker (Paperback) - Lulu
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loobs View Post
    Sucks that it got taken down. I would've liked to get hold of it.
    I'm sure there's plenty of other things you can still steal.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  34. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Loobs View Post
    Sucks that it got taken down. I would've liked to get hold of it.
    Sucks that you have no talent of your own and need to resort to stealing others' work to feel better about yourself

  35. #34

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    Glad you got it taken down, Jack. That really sucks that someone would rip off your hard work.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    it's also mind boggling that someone took my 300 page book, pulled the pages out, scanned 300 pages to PDF and published it on scribd. That took a lot of effort. I would love to find someone who knows this dude. I emailed him but he ignored me
    Hi Jack,
    Sorry to hear about this unscrupulous Ba....., we have a plethora of 'em in the
    London& the Uk in general. pickpockets. ATM robbing, begging on the London
    Underground Rail system using babies to elicit sympathy etc., if we compalin
    we are regarded as racist because the " Gypsies" are a protected species and
    an ethnic minority
    This guy is an unbelievable cheapskate, I have both of your SOS books which
    are excellent VFM and I can't think of Jazz players who would stoop to buying
    illegal copies.
    long may you prosper, we welcome you videos & useful info.

  37. #36
    people who are posting that if you've ever used an illegal fakebook either don't have a clue or don't understand fundamental logic.

    The point is that there's a huge difference between using an illegal book and stealing someone's work by duplicating it, scanning it to a PDF and posting it on a forum and the law sees it the same way. Not that i'm advocating using an illegal publication but if you can't see the difference you are clueless about the law, basic logic, ethics and morals.
    Last edited by jzucker; 07-30-2014 at 06:59 AM.

  38. #37

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    In defense of scribd .. I have to admit is saved my ass a couple of times when manufacturers go belly up or just stop providing user and service manuals.
    Edit: yeah I dictated that to my phone, and no I'm not going to fix the mistakes.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    people who are posting that if you've ever used an illegal fakebook either don't have a clue or don't understand fundamental logic.

    The point is that there's a huge difference between using an illegal book and stealing someone's work by duplicating it, scanning it to a PDF and posting it on a forum and the law sees it the same way. Not that i'm advocating using an illegal publication but if you can't see the difference you are clueless about the law, basic logic, ethics and morals.
    so, basically, if it's pirating j zucker's work, then it's abominably criminal, but if it's pirating rich dead people's heirs work, then it's just naughty...

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    so, basically, if it's pirating j zucker's work, then it's abominably criminal, but if it's pirating rich dead people's heirs work, then it's just naughty...
    I think the analogy is flawed. There is a difference between reading/using an illegally published book, and taking a book and illegally publishing it for the whole world to steal.

    Not everyone who does drugs is a drug dealer.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz View Post
    I think the analogy is flawed. There is a difference between reading/using an illegally published book, and taking a book and illegally publishing it for the whole world to steal.

    Not everyone who does drugs is a drug dealer.
    One is a product the other is service putting common played tunes in a single book.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  42. #41

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    there is no transaction without both provider and recipient. i made no analogy at all, flawed or otherwise.

  43. #42

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    The "Fake" in a Fakebook refers to "faking" or bluffing your way through in a gig. It is not "fake" as in illicit copy. Nobody is stealing from anybody's heirs or heiresses in a fakebook. You cannot own nor copyright chord progressions. Fakebook provides chord progressions and a sketch of the melody line. Everything is suggested or implied. It is not a note for note, wholesale copy of a copyrighted work. It is jazz. Nobody is going to play it note for note anyway. Otherwise, it becomes showtunes. And we don't want that!

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    The "Fake" in a Fakebook refers to "faking" or bluffing your way through in a gig. It is not "fake" as in illicit copy. Nobody is stealing from anybody's heirs or heiresses in a fakebook. You cannot own nor copyright chord progressions. Fakebook provides chord progressions and a sketch of the melody line. Everything is suggested or implied. It is not a note for note, wholesale copy of a copyrighted work. It is jazz. Nobody is going to play it note for note anyway. Otherwise, it becomes showtunes. And we don't want that!

    My understanding was that Melodies can be and are copyrighted.

    "Melody is overwhelmingly the single most important feature of a musical work in evaluating the merits of copyright infringement claims. The entire corpus of judicial opinions in the area of music copyright infringement dwells on melody as the single most idiosyncratic element of the works in question, and almost entirely the locus of the economic worth of a song."
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    My understanding was that Melodies can be and are copyrighted...
    Yes, GuyBoden, in that you're right and also lyrics. But chord progressions are not. And neither are sketches nor suggestions of the melody line.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Yes, GuyBoden, in that you're right and also lyrics. But chord progressions are not. And neither are sketches nor suggestions of the melody line.
    But, would a court of law know the difference between the actual melody and "suggestions of the melody line".
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  47. #46

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    Ask the Stones and K.D. Lang.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  48. #47

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    An interesting historical perspective on “fake books”: Napster in the 1930s and the Story of Fakebooks. My take: It’s not that different than what we are debating today other than the technology and means/span of distribution.

    On a positive note, were it not for this post, I would not have known about “Sheets of Sound” which looks impressive. I’ll be placing my order.

  49. #48

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    Sheets of Sound, baby!

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden View Post
    But, would a court of law know the difference between the actual melody and "suggestions of the melody line".
    Only a court of law can have that answer.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    The "Fake" in a Fakebook refers to "faking" or bluffing your way through in a gig. It is not "fake" as in illicit copy.
    There were illegal fakebooks, and still may be some.

    Fake book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola