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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I consider it stealing when my average income (over a 6 month period) from published work suddenly drops by 50% and I discover that it coincides with several sites publishing free versions of my work for download.

    It's easy to beat your chest and pontificate about such things if *YOU* are not losing money which clearly you are not.

    Just because it happens doesn't make it right. And just because a lawyer advises you doesn't make it wrong. Clearly you are struggling with issues of basic logic here. The conclusions you draw are coming from an imagined set of variables and criteria which don't make logical sense.

    A while back, motorola published an interview where they stated that they have a very narrow window once they release a new phone before the tech is copied and stolen by china who has very loose laws and enforcement around copy-written technology developed in the west. If they cannot recover their initial investment during that window, the product will lose money.

    Just because something happens and is known ahead of time, doesn't make it right. And your statement that it's not ok for doctors or factoryworkers to work for free but artists shouldn't be expected to derive income from their work just shows that you are not an artist , have never derived any income from art and probably don't know any artists.
    You know what's really annoying? That you consistently say what I am, what I do, what I think and what I say. You make contantly conclusions on behalf of me.

    I never said that stealing art is OK but you repeat that I say it again and again.
    I did not even a single time say that I support those who upload others stuff for free.

    I just tried to see what's behind it andyes - to say I do not like the system which does not mean that I support illegal ways to break it.

    Another point: you do not know me at all but you dare say how I earn money and what I do.

    MAKING ART and SELLING ART are two different things and it is way better when these things are done by two different persons.

    Last but not least - in a world where there is scribdm.. is not it better to make something different for money? There are so many things to sell...

    And jazz guitar methods - if you do it for love - do it for love.

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  3. #152
    Oh stop with the false indignation. You sound like a politician. You keep forgetting that just because *YOU* have a belief about art and income doesn't make it true for others. Anyway, I will not correspond to any more of your trolling . You are now in my ignore list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    You know what's really annoying? That you consistently say what I am, what I do, what I think and what I say. You make contantly conclusions on behalf of me.

    I never said that stealing art is OK but you repeat that I say it again and again.
    I did not even a single time say that I support those who upload others stuff for free.

    I just tried to see what's behind it andyes - to say I do not like the system which does not mean that I support illegal ways to break it.

    Another point: you do not know me at all but you dare say how I earn money and what I do.

    MAKING ART and SELLING ART are two different things and it is way better when these things are done by two different persons.

    Last but not least - in a world where there is scribdm.. is not it better to make something different for money? There are so many things to sell...

    And jazz guitar methods - if you do it for love - do it for love.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    Oh stop with the false indignation. You sound like a politician. You keep forgetting that just because *YOU* have a belief about art and income doesn't make it true for others. Anyway, I will not correspond to any more of your trolling . You are now in my ignore list.
    I sound like one who can lead a discussion staying with topic and following logics of the subject without switching to personalities.

    I think I have had enough of this pleasure here though, and I am happy to leave the thread for your further.

    Ignore list is probably the best invention in the internet, this is the only place where I feel really comfortable.
    It's particular pleasure to write knowing in advance that the person it is addressed to will not read it.

    'Indifference is the least we have to expect from man or beast' (oops! Looks like I stole it)

    Have a nice non-reading this!

  5. #154
    Feel like this thread has gone about three different directions at one time , but whatever.

    1. First of all, to the philosophical aspects, musicians need to get themselves together philosophically , big time. You always get these reactions about art being different or whatever . My first reaction to that is always "what do you do for a living?". How many paychecks are you willing to give up for the sake of someone outside of your family benefiting from what you're doing? If we're honest, "helping " someone with plumbing or car repair is much more tangibly helpful to someone who is in dire need. I just don't see that anyone is ever making the case that mechanics or plumbers "should " be doing what they're doing for purely noble reasons etc. what is wrong with us as artists that we value our own time so much less? I wrangle with other musicians over the stuff all the time. Not plumbers or doctors,... MUSICIANS! Musicians who will argue AGAINST treating themselves with human dignity, as if their time and effort matter. As if the time away from their family spent working is any LESS valuable than any other human being on the planet. Again, I'll never understand. Whatever.

    I've made more of a living out of music than countless other individuals who are more talented than myself. Something is just messed up.

    2. On the pragmatic end of things, one needs to know the world we live in in 2018. There is a very real "shelflife" for printed material which is just laid out there , without ongoing interaction in a community of would-be followers etc. I think the modern template which seems to be working for a lot of people is really working on building community, offering a good bit of free content , with multiple options for "true fans" to buy in, at various price points. Once you have enough buy-in from the right people, they WANT to support you no matter what.

    Things like Patreon, smaller less expensive printed materials, or bonus online material produced, with the idea of working on volume and building community seem to be working for a lot of people out there.

    I would never give up on something at the level of a "life's work", represented by something like sheets of sound, but I WOULD maybe think about the number of hours per week that I want to spend policing the Internet versus serving my current audience and adding to it. Can't say what the magic formula is for any one individual, but what Matt Warnock does currently seems to be viable and sustainable.

    It's a community based model, on a monthly schedule, based around tunes , so it's basically never ending. Mostly free content, with the option to buy-in at the beginning of the month for a study guide, in order to have access to the material early. Honestly, you could probably get all of the material throughout the month if you're willing to wait, for free . The price point is low enough, but I would imagine that that community has a high interest in supporting him regardless of whether they could attain it in some illicit "free" way. The timeline is also short enough that it's probably not worth trying to attain a legal copy. All of it supports and incentivizes back catalog, larger works, previous months etc. etc. again, I think there are great number of people who sincerely want to give money to artists I believe them. Personally, this looks more sustainable and profitable, than a lot of the Patreon models that people are using.

    1,000 true fans -type model appears to be the basis for a lot of artists these days. May be PIA short-term, but long-term, would seem to be liberating. Not asking people for money or policing as much. Community approach, as opposed to marketing etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by 0zoro View Post
    Hej Part of getting started is the massive learning process of thinking shapes, arp, modes etc etc. Matt Warrnock (who I believe in part started this site) has a FB site, Play Jazz Guitar, that studies one song a month. Matt has a workshop every Monday devoted to areas of the song, comping, soloing, etc. Then there are various other perks on the song that he puts out during the weekdays. It is all free, but remember that interaction on the site is limited to the song of the month. In addition Matt writes a study guide on the song that is available a few days prior to the beginning of the new month, which he makes available to members of the closed FB group for $5, which covers more on the song. Every month is not one of your favorite songs, though some might be, but it is a very serious teaching endeavour that tangents uni level. You move at your own pace, and can send in vids of yourself playing areas of the song of the month for review. Need I say more? Welcome to this group by the way!
    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    No, not period. And emotional exclamations do not solve the problem.

    It's not that simple.
    Culture of copyright is strongly connected with local economical and social conditions, with local market and how this market is related to global market and other markets.
    You can't exclaim: Oh a CD! I does not cost fortune... not for you but for someone there - yes. There are coundtries where good lunch costs 50cents and monthly salary is 50 bucks.. locally they are not poor, but they cannot afford American CD for 15 dollars.
    This market is not localized.

    I am not emotional.

    Of course scribd is disgusting. First because they take money, second because they do not control the quality what is being uploaded.

    Artists should be paid and rewarded of course but how?

    We should not be short-sighted because the other side of it is good art that does not sell well.
    It may seem paradoxal but the artists that do not sell well have the same problem as the artists that are pirated.

    Both are not getting paid for their work.
    Don't quote this part with saying ' but the reasons that they are not paid are different'

    Because this is what I call 'short-sighted'.

    The reason is the same: market (so called free market, though of course it is not free).

    I think art should be supported and paid by rich people, states, universities. I would have made a tax for art so that everyone who does not work in artistic area would pay it.

    And no stupid market and sales competion, let the salesmen sell Coke and Fords...
    Dude...of all people you I'd expect to understand state should be nowhere near the arts. Living in one of the most oppressive states, where artists are jailed for their work, have you learned nothing?

    Rich people do support art, either buying an expensive peace of art or producing a movie... Heck, they might even help to produce a record I suppose

    However all of it has nothing to do with a daily life and survival of a jazz musician, a live you obviously are not living, but feel the inclination to give advises on a cosmic proportions to those who do. Sorry, reminds me of conversations with Sharikov from Heart Of The Dog.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Dude...of all people you I'd expect to understand state should be nowhere near the arts. Living in one of the most oppressive states, where artists are jailed for their work, have you learned nothing?

    Rich people do support art, either buying an expensive peace of art or producing a movie... Heck, they might even help to produce a record I suppose

    However all of it has nothing to do with a daily life and survival of a jazz musician, a live you obviously are not living, but feel the inclination to give advises on a cosmic proportions to those who do. Sorry, reminds me of conversations with Sharikov from Heart Of The Dog.
    It's more complex. Are you so naive to think I am that privitive to get into such a discussion on such a level?

    Do you know there are other economical system except capitalism and soviet socialism?

    Film directors like Ingmar Begman would have never come up in the States becasue most of his movies was made under goverment movie company - in Sweden.

    Leading modern Western European economics are forms of socialism.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    And your statement that it's not ok for doctors or factoryworkers to work for free but artists shouldn't be expected to derive income from their work just shows that you are not an artist , have never derived any income from art and probably don't know any artists.
    I don't think the above is true.

    The comment about "just because *YOU* believe something doesn't make it true for everyone" I don't understand this, because he is just giving his opinion in a conversation about his belief...I missed where he said it's true for everyone.

    But I agree, the ignore list is a great way create a nice echo chamber-- you can do the same on facebook

    Anyway, I liked reading his unpopular opinion. Thanks Jonah.
    White belt
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  9. #158

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    I'm sorry to read that a fellow Romanian did that. He's even a musician and teacher, and that's even worse in my opinion.




    But I'm gonna try to put things in context a bit. First of all, I don't agree with piracy, I actually had my copyrighted work stolen for me, and had to choose a different profession due to this practice, as I felt that I don't want to work this way, to keep fighting the piracy just to be able to earn a living.




    Over here, in Romania, piracy was not seen as such a big offense, and it got a lot to do with the way we started using computers and also the social situation in the 90s. We are known as a rather poor country, we had a revolution in 1989, and we kinda hit a reset button and had to build things from there. And we're still trying to go pass that reset, even 33 years later.


    In the mid-90s, computers started being sold here, but software market was all over the place. If I was gonna go into a store and buy a CD, it was probably a bootlegged copy. The thing was that we didn't have any way of knowing. For some time, it was perfectly legal to sell bootlegs. We never heard the term "copyright", we didn't have a clue how any of this business works. You would buy bootlegs from legal stores, not from the streets. And we were moving software for one to another without even thinking that it was wrong. My first rock album was a cassette by a band called "Metalicca", it was "best of", but was actually the Black Album, bought from a regular music store.




    When software started to be available, in the 2000s, and bootleg business was not legal anymore, it was extremely expensive, as the prices were set for the global economy. Just to have a value point, a copy of Windows was costing a Romanian his income for two or three months. When I started working, I was making around $100 per month, and that was more than the minimum wage, while a Windows copy was $200. So it was just something that you couldn't afford to buy. And the same was for music and specific literature. Stores didn't have many of the stuff that many people wanted, so moving stuff on CDs or cassettes was just a regular thing to do, no one was thinking that they were doing something illegal. So once the piracy started to move online, on websites, where you could download software, music, movies, everyone was using it. I mean literally everyone. If you were using the internet, you were using those websites to get your music, movies or software.
    Later, when the Internet started to be more popular, you could order things online. That was all nice, but you would wait 2 months for them to arrive from overseas, and in most cases, the price of the shipment was more than the price of the item. And the income was still too small to afford any of that stuff.




    Right now, the shipping is fine, but prices are still a bit high for some people. The minimum wage is still low, at $350. And this is not something that only people that work at McDonald's get, there are many people that are paid just that. And if those people pay $200 for their rent, they have $150 left for food and other needs. From this money, paying $40-50 for a book is seen as a luxury expense. Anyhow, piracy went down a lot. Especially selling pirated goods, that's pretty much nonexistent right now. Piracy still exists, but it's all non-profit. But it's not something that people do because they want to, but because they don't see other ways. Especially as far as guitar books go, there are simply no good ones to be found. We have "for dummies", Matteo Carcassi method, and a few books by local guitarists.

    People will look for other resources online because that's what they know. I bet none of them ever thinks about the author and how pirating his work it's hurting him. Those that know about these things make the conscious decision of paying for stuff, but those that don't know, have no clue if it's illegal what they are doing.


    And it's this insane consumerism that affects all of us. We don't want "a guitar" anymore, we want the best one because we have 100 different models to pick from. We don't want just a guitar book, we want the one that explains the most in-depth, so we're rarely gonna be happy with something that's not perfect. And perfect things rarely exist. It's not the same market anymore, we have way too many products from each category, and it's a dangerous thing, as it's harder and harder to find something that will satisfy us. Back in the 90s, I started playing guitar with a book that had some information about chords, notes, 2-3 songs and Santana's Europa. That was all there was of that book, really thin book. And I find it so helpful. Today, no one will enjoy using it, because it's too thin and does not have enough information.



    The problem is that, as for today, it's hard to fight against this practice. If they won't upload on Scribd anymore, they will move to torrent sites, blogs, they will always find ways to distribute that material. And I think that authors and editors should think about ways of playing in the current situation. Netflix, Spotify, they did just that. Instead of fighting against piracy, they offered services that would make someone that gets movies or music for free to actually find it easier and more practical to just pay for them. It's much easier to pay $14 a month for Netflix membership than $14 for a DVD for a movie that you don't even know if you're gonna enjoy or not. Because that's the main reason. People are not able to say "that's fine enough for me", they are much picky than they were 10-20-30 years ago, as they have much more stuff available.


    I think that the future will be Scribd type of service, that will pay the authors for their books, so those books will be accessed for small fees or membership. Amazon does something like that with renting. People have access to too much stuff to be happy with just a book or method.



    Sorry for the huge wall of text. I repeat, I do not support piracy in any way or form, I'm just trying to offer an explanation for why it's still such a big of a problem. It's just how I see these things.

  10. #159

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    Patreon models that people are using.
    I don't really dig Patreon, looks like more sophisticated form of begging... I always feel a bit embarassed even more when there are really talented people... embarassed because I believe it should not be like that.

    matt, your post is great.

    You see O earn some money with music - but today it's not my main income (there weere years when it was)...
    but does it really matter?
    I have very very close friends who record their music on labels of their own - and on famous ones.. my close firend had a CD with ECM not long ago..
    Also I have personally experience with books (and some of my friends do - and it's not another method of application of harmonic minor but a research that required long work in the libraries and so on).

    None of these friends relied on the income from royalties. Mostly they did th e records either for discography or because they were offered an opportunity... in some cases as with famous labels they were paid a decent amount of money just for the record. THey get percent from sales from time to time but it's mpre like unexpected bonus for them.

    And what is important - all of them do not mind if their music or books will be disctributed for free. They will be happy if people will just have interest in it.
    Mostly it's producers and recording companies who are against it (which is understandable).

    Most musicians I know earn with concerts and teaching.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It's more complex. Are you so naive to think I am that privitive to get into such a discussion on such a level?

    Do you know there are other economical system except capitalism and soviet socialism?

    Film directors like Ingmar Begman would have never come up in the States becasue most of his movies was made under goverment movie company - in Sweden.

    Leading modern Western European economics are forms of socialism.
    I do think you are naive actually. In a sense that you live in your fantasy world how things should be working, but in reality they don't work like that.

    Music is profession, it is for me, for Zack, and many many others. You are not a pro musician, and it's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your rhetorical questions and your philosophizing are naive in that regard.

    If we put time and energy into producing work, we want to get paid, there is no ifs or whys. Suggesting we are not entitled for fair compensation just like any other professionals is beyond naive, kinda insulting.

    On a big scale of things, if I think about it, personally, where this compensation comes from is not that important. If it was my work distributed for free overseas by some poor Romanian shmuck, and the state or any third party would want to compensate me for that, sure, no problem! Either way... But it's just me.

    For now though, it's not the case. The state don't give a shit, and there is kind of shortage of rich folks giving out charities for jazz musicians. Pity!

  12. #161

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    I do think you are naive actually. In a sense that you live in your fantasy world how things should be working, but in reality they don't work like that.
    Oh dear... it's getting too predictable. With years I really begin to see that most problem come from the lack of imagination.

    and can you all finally stop telling me who I am or am not and what I am or am not???

    discuss the subject!!! - not ME!!!

    Don't ever say 'reality' to me - you open a Pandora box with guy like me... and this will be a bit beyond a table talk you are used to.

    You know..
    actually you make me think I should support total cancelation of copyright and authorship.
    At least just for fun to make guys like you to feel how many different realities there are.

  13. #162
    I agree and will add that i don't give a **** what jonah does or what some other artist does. That is not my concern. My concern is that it is *MY* work and *MY* output and nobody else has a right to pirate it regardless of how they personally feel. If someone wants to put their art out there for public consumption that is fine. I have put mountains of information and instructional material out there for free. My Playing Outside video on youtube has close to 200,000 hits. I have no problem with giving art for free but you see, it is *MY* choice It is not Jonah's choice or someone else's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I do think you are naive actually. In a sense that you live in your fantasy world how things should be working, but in reality they don't work like that.

    Music is profession, it is for me, for Zack, and many many others. You are not a pro musician, and it's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your rhetorical questions and your philosophizing are naive in that regard.

    If we put time and energy into producing work, we want to get paid, there is no ifs or whys. Suggesting we are not entitled for fair compensation just like any other professionals is beyond naive, kinda insulting.

    On a big scale of things, if I think about it, personally, where this compensation comes from is not that important. If it was my work distributed for free overseas by some poor Romanian shmuck, and the state or any third party would want to compensate me for that, sure, no problem! Either way... But it's just me.

    For now though, it's not the case. The state don't give a shit, and there is kind of shortage of rich folks giving out charities for jazz musicians. Pity!

  14. #163
    The thing is, doesn't really matter who pays the artist. Might be the state, a corporation, the church, the public, aliens, depends on the existing social system. If they weren't getting paid though, well, there just wouldn't be Ingmar Bergman, neither in Sweden nor anywhere else. The only movies you 'd have would be movies from amateurs, working irrelevant jobs to support themselves. Probably not much you 'd like to watch. No Bach, no Coltrane, no Paco De Lucia, just amateur musicians playing (usually) mediocre music. Not even folk or worship, or street musicians would exist. No architecture, no sculpture (unless we consider these a job and not "art"), no Moscow Ballet, no Berlin Philharmonic, no Sex Pistols, no art of professional level whatsoever.

    You seem to be under the impression that producing art, or becoming an artist is an easy feat to accomplish, or something that lets you live in a sphere where material things are irrelevant. Neither is true unfortunately, even if you 're playing punk music. What would Jack Jucker 's level in playing and teaching be if noone ever payed him for it? Bet we wouldn't be hearing those lines if he had to work in Mc Donalds 12 hours a day to support himself. You 're hearing years and years of practicing and teaching, commitment, dedication, etc, things that i 'm sorry to say cannot be accomplished by practicing 2 hours a day. Neither work nor passion can have two masters.

    Art and education, for me, are things that a society should revere, not just reward and endorse. You speak of Sweden as an example. Not many countries in the world support the arts and artists (even art students, let along professionals) like the scandinavian countries do, even foreign nationals. Support meaning they give them money.

    P.S. Also, friends, don't let the computers dictate the tone of the discussion so much. Were we in Russia, we 'd take this conversation up with some good vodka (in greece i would suggest raki!), talk about guitars, maybe jam a bit,.. you get the idea..!
    Last edited by Alter; 05-17-2018 at 10:11 PM.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Oh dear... it's getting too predictable. With years I really begin to see that most problem come from the lack of imagination.

    and can you all finally stop telling me who I am or am not and what I am or am not???

    discuss the subject!!! - not ME!!!

    Don't ever say 'reality' to me - you open a Pandora box with guy like me... and this will be a bit beyond a table talk you are used to.

    You know..
    actually you make me think I should support total cancelation of copyright and authorship.
    At least just for fun to make guys like you to feel how many different realities there are.
    Well you asked if I think you are naive, I answered yes with explanation. Oh I'm sorry was it just another rhetorical question, like 'Why do you want to be compensated for your work so much?'. My bad!

    You don't need to try hard supporting total cancellation of copyright and authorship, you are living in just the right country for that. That law barely ever existed there to begin with, never really respected or taken seriously. Congratulations!

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter View Post

    P.S. Also, friends, don't let the computers dictate the tone of the discussion so much. Were we in Russia, we 'd take this conversation up with some good vodka (in greece i would suggest raki!), talk about guitars, maybe jam a bit,.. you get the idea..!
    I'd be careful with the jam though, next day you might wake up with hungover and your gear missing... Some people cant afford it but really love music.

  17. #166

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    For years I have been very tolerant to stupidity, mediocracy and laziness of thought and imagination. Now I think: why?

    Why am I trying to be so polite to those who do not let me just clearly and quitely express my opinion only because it is different from theirs.

    I feel really tired of soft decent idiots who cannot clearly think and argue.
    Democracy became a true tyrany of mediocre majority.
    And Art is the only area where democracy just does not work. Yes, Bird and Trane were true nobelmen of spirit.

    Combined with conception of professionalism it brought to life thousands of proffessional artist who essentially have notheing to do with true art.
    The major requirement for that is being accomplished mediocarcy.

    The notions of these people are limnited with the idea that if their head bumps in the wall it is the real wall.
    They are so slow thinking that they do not understand that saying:' you live in fantasy and here is the reality' they imply their reality with their own head (constantly bumping the wall) to other people.

    I do not appologize if it hurts anyone.
    In my ideal Kingdom I would have ordered to birch them. Not severely, they do not deserve real punishment.

  18. #167
    I think most participants in this conversation understand your viewpoint, I certainly do. But they have a viewpoint also. I have personally met, studied under, talked to, and occasionally played with a few of the leading peers of jazz music today over the years. Or shared a seminar or a good conversation with them. People I would call true artists, geniuses, players like Lage Lund, Lionel Lueke that we were at Berklee at the same time, the Rosenberg trio, Gerardo Nunez, when we met playing in festivals, many of the newer generation of jazz recording artists in the states that were playing around Boston years back when I was there, older cats too. Many are famous, touring around the world. The way of thinking you describe is always there, that is a given, and noone that has experience passion or creativity would say otherwise. There is total dedication, the driving force is creativity, there is minimal interest for anything else other than what they do. Just the burning presence of mastery and direction, which is always inspiring and sensational to see. This is where art begins. Nothing Democratic about it, a true artist will always be one in a million. There is really no such need to defend this viewpoint, everyone understands that it is true.

    Talk to this true artist, and you can talk for hours about these callings. Or often they are subliminal and you learn a lot about where human spirituality and creative force is coming from. But, if the pedestrian thing of money, paying the bills, or financing a career eventually comes up, then here is your second viewpoint. We are not disagreeing in this thread, we are taking about two different subjects. On the second one, of course there are people with all kinds of opinions and realities. Some will give away their belongings, live in community houses, completely disregard anything financial or material. I have a close friend that was one of the most successful session players and musical directors here in Greece who now lives happy in a hut in Nepal. But most of the time, their opinions on financial matters would align with most people's in this thread.

    If you've met professional musicians in Russia, you 've probably seen the struggle. I know jazz musician reality was very different in the Eastern world, I've played with a few artists when they were visiting Greece, some even live here. Jazz musicians in the West are also sponsored, but in different ways and to a lesser degree, different systems. They also struggle, this I suspect in the same way

    What I'm trying to say is, being a true artistic genius and caring and defending for your financial well being, aren't two mutually exclusive things, but can coexist. Many of the greats lived (or live) troubled and financially unstable lives. This doesn't only mean they didn't care about it, but more often than not that they were simply unsuccessful about it. Read a few biographies and it becomes painfully clear.
    Last edited by Alter; 05-18-2018 at 06:40 AM.

  19. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter View Post
    Jazz musicians in the West are also sponsored, but in different ways and to a lesser degree, different systems.
    huh? How are jazz musicians in the west sponsored? That's certainly news to the many jazz musicians I know who live in NYC

  20. #169
    In the East, many jazz musicians were employed by the government, there were jazz bands and people would get a salary and a steady job. In the West we also have state jazz bands, paid residencies, scholarships and awards, grants,I meant that sort of thing. In many countries, Greece included (but here not for music unfortunately) the culture ministry will sponsore artists with a good portfolio.

  21. #170

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    IMO Art is not what has to be compensated, it is the "work" involved!
    Without compensated artistic expression, there would not be anything to steal in the first place...
    Imagine a world with no compensated artists where everyone is just a dabbler like I would guess 85% of that very forum
    ...every note has an origin and a destination...
    - Tal Farlow

  22. #171

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    If you've met professional musicians in Russia, you 've probably seen the struggle.
    Yes, I know personally quite a few professional msucians in Russia and Europe - some of them are in jazz, but mostlay in classical or early music.
    And most of them - I cannot say they are poor - but yes they struggle. Except maybe two-three of them who managed to achieve certain position in career - not quite stars - but close to that status - so they earn much more for concets or masterclasses than others.

    I am not sure what you mean by East - Easrtern Europe and Russia? Oriental countries? USA East Coast?
    If you mean ex-Soviet countries - during Soviet period there was just on official way to work as a musician (or an actor) it was to be hired by the state. But I would not call it a support. Of course, for example film directors liek Andrey Tarkovsky could benefit from it because they would have never got the mone and such long terms to make movies like he did in Hollywood, but the price he paid for this advantage was extremely high.

    I mentioned Ingmar Bergman above who in my opinion is one of the few true artists in cinema art - he was extremely prolific film-maker... most of his movies (at least in the early days) were filmed with participation of the Swedish state movier company. He himself described his shock after travelling to UK after he saw in what conditions the great Lwarence Olivier had to work in comparison to Swedish theatres. Yes Swedish econimis was those days probably closest to socialism (as well as Finnish today I believe - though not sure).

    I take movie because it is by far more expensive form of art than any other (except maybe architecture).

    Most of Ingmar Bergman's films would have never be made in Hollywood because just would not take these risks.
    In my opinion one the best Woody Allen's fimes - Purple Rose of Cairo - was total failure in movies... and why? Because it was limited release! Producers just did not want to take risks. But I am sure that with a good campaign the movie would have been a success in the box-office too.
    They just do not care. Chaplin descrivbed the situation when he tried to convince producers to invest in The Kid (if I am not wrong) and he understood that they just did not care and listen, any new form was too risky for them.
    They worked in the same way as if it were production of gum or cars.

    And this is what I find wrong. Becasue this system produce people like Spielberg or Eastwood - which are good entertainment directors but when they begin to think they can make real serious movies - it shows how fake and speculative all the system is.

    This how the democracy in society rules and leads the arts in this kind of social and economic system.

    Jazz musicians in the West are also sponsored, but in different ways and to a lesser degree, different systems.
    I do not know from personal experience. But I think in the USA situation with it is much worse than in Europe.
    The principles of economic efficience and profitablility are just too important part of mentality there.

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinlander View Post
    IMO Art is not what has to be compensated, it is the "work" involved!
    Without compensated artistic expression, there would not be anything to steal in the first place...
    Imagine a world with no compensated artists where everyone is just a dabbler like I would guess 85% of that very forum
    beautiful world! Imagine 85% of the world are dabbler musicians!

  24. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter View Post
    In the East, many jazz musicians were employed by the government, there were jazz bands and people would get a salary and a steady job. In the West we also have state jazz bands, paid residencies, scholarships and awards, grants,I meant that sort of thing. In many countries, Greece included (but here not for music unfortunately) the culture ministry will sponsore artists with a good portfolio.
    Few working jazz musicians in NYC are getting grants and in any event the current administration has cut funding to the national endowment of the arts for the 2018 (and beyond) budget so what little grants that were available will not be available shortly. Also, the grants are very limited and only a handful of musicians get them. The average jazz musician in NYC is doing $75 gigs, passing the hat, struggling to work more than 2x a week, teaching, doing workshops and hustling to make money. Guys like Kreisberg have risen to the level of doing festivals and that probably pays the bills for him. The teaching thing is tough too. Peabody Conservatory recently laid off the entire jazz department. In cleveland, a friend of mine was teaching jazz guitar and Cleveland State and Akron U. and I recently contacted him about doing a clinic there and he informed me that he had only 3 jazz guitar majors between the two schools. The problem - The school has ZERO dollars for their jazz recruiting budget and jazz guitar is a tough sell. Another university jazz guitar professor in ohio told me this: "I used to be able to tell kids to learn to sight-read, learn all their doubles, learn to play jazz, rock, country, folk, bluegrass and they would never be out of work. I can't tell them that anymore!"

    20 years ago, musicians of the caliber of Pasquale Grasso, Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, etc., would be working 3-4 nights a week. Not so anymore. Between the 3 of them, in a random visit to NYC last week, only one of them was gigging and there were 7 people in the audience. No grants, not a lot of money. Not a great situation.

    So yeah, i'm a bit sensitive when some random bloke mouths off that artists shouldn't be paid when it's my work that is being pirated by someone with a similar philosophy who has no regard for my needs and the work I put into what is now being freely downloaded.

  25. #174

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    Here in the UK the lucky jazz people get a whopping 2% of the Arts Council annual music fund.

    The poor buggers who do opera only get a measly 62%.

  26. #175

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    good lord, graham. does everyone still wear powdered wigs over there?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  27. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    good lord, graham. does everyone still wear powdered wigs over there?
    they still do in criminal court

  28. #177

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    graham wears one when he plays his jazz lute
    White belt
    My Youtube

  29. #178

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    My good sir, you have no idea how refreshing it is for a gentleman to don a freshly-powdered wig before facing the daily affray of the metropolis.

    I have my valet bring me one every morning.

  30. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    For years I have been very tolerant to stupidity, mediocracy and laziness of thought and imagination. Now I think: why?

    Why am I trying to be so polite to those who do not let me just clearly and quitely express my opinion only because it is different from theirs.

    I feel really tired of soft decent idiots who cannot clearly think and argue.
    Democracy became a true tyrany of mediocre majority.
    And Art is the only area where democracy just does not work. Yes, Bird and Trane were true nobelmen of spirit.

    Combined with conception of professionalism it brought to life thousands of proffessional artist who essentially have notheing to do with true art.
    The major requirement for that is being accomplished mediocarcy.

    The notions of these people are limnited with the idea that if their head bumps in the wall it is the real wall.
    They are so slow thinking that they do not understand that saying:' you live in fantasy and here is the reality' they imply their reality with their own head (constantly bumping the wall) to other people.

    I do not appologize if it hurts anyone.
    In my ideal Kingdom I would have ordered to birch them. Not severely, they do not deserve real punishment.
    I don't think anyone's hurt by this nonsense, or maybe it's just the ignore list.

    In your ideal Kingdom though, if you asked yourself what exactly you've done or doing in music, and how's that brings you close to art, you'd have to birch yourself first, and maybe more severely. Phony intellectualism is not a sub for a talent my friend.

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    Few working jazz musicians in NYC are getting grants and in any event the current administration has cut funding to the national endowment of the arts for the 2018 (and beyond) budget so what little grants that were available will not be available shortly. Also, the grants are very limited and only a handful of musicians get them. The average jazz musician in NYC is doing $75 gigs, passing the hat, struggling to work more than 2x a week, teaching, doing workshops and hustling to make money. Guys like Kreisberg have risen to the level of doing festivals and that probably pays the bills for him. The teaching thing is tough too. Peabody Conservatory recently laid off the entire jazz department. In cleveland, a friend of mine was teaching jazz guitar and Cleveland State and Akron U. and I recently contacted him about doing a clinic there and he informed me that he had only 3 jazz guitar majors between the two schools. The problem - The school has ZERO dollars for their jazz recruiting budget and jazz guitar is a tough sell. Another university jazz guitar professor in ohio told me this: "I used to be able to tell kids to learn to sight-read, learn all their doubles, learn to play jazz, rock, country, folk, bluegrass and they would never be out of work. I can't tell them that anymore!"

    20 years ago, musicians of the caliber of Pasquale Grasso, Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, etc., would be working 3-4 nights a week. Not so anymore. Between the 3 of them, in a random visit to NYC last week, only one of them was gigging and there were 7 people in the audience. No grants, not a lot of money. Not a great situation.

    So yeah, i'm a bit sensitive when some random bloke mouths off that artists shouldn't be paid when it's my work that is being pirated by someone with a similar philosophy who has no regard for my needs and the work I put into what is now being freely downloaded.
    It's all so true! And we are talking the stars of jazz, and how many under the radar musicians...

    A few years ago I had a gig I needed a sax player for, I asked a friend singer who gets around and plays with some heavy cats in NYC for recommendations. She gave me a list from which I recognized some names, the guys who play with Wynton Marsalis at the Lincoln Center all the time. The gig was $75 for 3 sets in some restaurant in Queens, and I was like wow wait, you think those guys would even think of playing for that?? She said, oh yeah, don't even think about it, everyone is looking to play, they won't be offended in the least lol!

    So with that, yeah, when I see some pseudo intellectuals who try to stretch a philosophical base to advocate the theft from their fellow musicians here, I get slightly pissed off too.

    Whats more embarrassing, being from Russia, and knowing the first hand on what scale intellectual property rights are ignored and spat on there, the piracy on massive proportions, which I used to be a part of myself... I bought tons of unlicensed movies and music there back in the day on open market.

    I knew it was wrong though! But trying to philosophically justify it, man, that's something else! Conscious has long left those people, or maybe never been there to begin with.

  32. #181
    I agree but to me, the topper is the fake indignation and turning the whole thing around to make it about him reminds me of some of our politicians.

    A friend of mine is one of the best jazz musicians in NYC with a mile long resume who's played with everyone from Herbie Hancock to John McLaughlin. I'm not going to say his name because it wouldn't be fair to him. But the addendum to my previous posting is that I emailed him asking where he was playing the week of May 1 when I was going to be in NYC and he told me that he rarely plays in clubs anymore. He can't afford to live in Manhattan and the cost of uber to and from the club is more than most of the gigs pay. He can take the subway but it involves lugging all his gear and transferring trains and for the most part is more hassle than it's worth. He lost his lucrative professorship to someone who has a PhD (he has no degree) and so consequently he is struggling to live, struggling to pay rent. He's not getting any grants or support from the government. He's worrying about healthcare and how he'll ever retire. He has many albums and some books out but makes little from them because of all the piracy. It's a very sad state of affairs and I do take it personally when someone decides on their own - with no stake in making a living in the arts - that artists shouldn't try to make money with their art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    It's all so true! And we are talking the stars of jazz, and how many under the radar musicians...

    A few years ago I had a gig I needed a sax player for, I asked a friend singer who gets around and plays with some heavy cats in NYC for recommendations. She gave me a list from which I recognized some names, the guys who play with Wynton Marsalis at the Lincoln Center all the time. The gig was $75 for 3 sets in some restaurant in Queens, and I was like wow wait, you think those guys would even think of playing for that?? She said, oh yeah, don't even think about it, everyone is looking to play, they won't be offended in the least lol!

    So with that, yeah, when I see some pseudo intellectuals who try to stretch a philosophical base to advocate the theft from their fellow musicians here, I get slightly pissed off too.

    Whats more embarrassing, being from Russia, and knowing the first hand on what scale intellectual property rights are ignored and spat on there, the piracy on massive proportions, which I used to be a part of myself... I bought tons of unlicensed movies and music there back in the day on open market.

    I knew it was wrong though! But trying to philosophically justify it, man, that's something else! Conscious has long left those people, or maybe never been there to begin with.

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I don't think anyone's hurt by this nonsense, or maybe it's just the ignore list.

    In your ideal Kingdom though, if you asked yourself what exactly you've done or doing in music, and how's that brings you close to art, you'd have to birch yourself first, and maybe more severely. Phony intellectualism is not a sub for a talent my friend.
    No! No!No! Freund, Roman, Countryfan!
    you cannot be so pathetically predictable... there should be at least slightest sparkle in this fathomless darkness deprived of any hope!

    Would you prefer birching for the sake of the spirit of your long-forgotten motherland or caning - more in the spirit of Mr. Kipling and Mr.Dickins? So to say - to feel more authentic in relatively new enviroment of New England.


    And I am so sorry but I cannot accept your friendship - I just value my friendship too high.

    PS
    By the way say honestly - did you google up to translate 'birching'?

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    I agree but to me, the topper is the fake indignation and turning the whole thing around to make it about him reminds me of some of our politicians.

    A friend of mine is one of the best jazz musicians in NYC with a mile long resume who's played with everyone from Herbie Hancock to John McLaughlin. I'm not going to say his name because it wouldn't be fair to him. But the addendum to my previous posting is that I emailed him asking where he was playing the week of May 1 when I was going to be in NYC and he told me that he rarely plays in clubs anymore. He can't afford to live in Manhattan and the cost of uber to and from the club is more than most of the gigs pay. He can take the subway but it involves lugging all his gear and transferring trains and for the most part is more hassle than it's worth. He lost his lucrative professorship to someone who has a PhD (he has no degree) and so consequently he is struggling to live, struggling to pay rent. He's not getting any grants or support from the government. He's worrying about healthcare and how he'll ever retire. He has many albums and some books out but makes little from them because of all the piracy. It's a very sad state of affairs and I do take it personally when someone decides on their own - with no stake in making a living in the arts - that artists shouldn't try to make money with their art.
    Yes, exactly that!

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    No! No!No! Freund, Roman, Countryfan!
    you cannot be so pathetically predictable... there should be at least slightest sparkle in this fathomless darkness deprived of any hope!

    Would you prefer birching for the sake of the spirit of your long-forgotten motherland or caning - more in the spirit of Mr. Kipling and Mr.Dickins? So to say - to feel more authentic in relatively new enviroment of New England.


    And I am so sorry but I cannot accept your friendship - I just value my friendship too high.

    PS
    By the way say honestly - did you google up to translate 'birching'?
    Mr. Kipling and Mr. Dickens were British, New York is not New England. Brush up on your history and geography, artist lol

  36. #185

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    t's a very sad state of affairs and I do take it personally when someone decides on their own - with no stake in making a living in the arts - that artists shouldn't try to make money with their art.
    Using this anonimous quote as reference I can't but say that I do take extremely personal when someone deceides that he is an artist - with no stake in making arts - and afterwards he wants to be paid for that.

    I take it so personal that I actuall begin t idetifiy feel myself with such an artist and extremely want to be immediately paid.

  37. #186

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    Yes, it totally sucks when you don't want your publication circulated without your permission...
    But with that aside, As far as the logic or rationale behind the person who uploaded it- there is a movement of people who believe in freedom of information. That any resource of knowledge or culture should be publicly available since the technology is capable of doing so. It is an idealistic view that, in theory could work... but in order for it to be truly justified, we would have to be living in a fully idealistic society where no one has to pay for basic needs any more. Once again, we have the technology to do that but we would also have to negotiate world peace for it to happen.

  38. #187

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    This type of practice where it's deemed ok to pirate also has an effect on legitimate business practices. A while ago I wanted to order a mambo amp from the UK. I was told by John (Mambo) that because I wanted it shipped to Hong Kong and given China's non compliance with intellectual property and copyright laws he is not selling them in the Asia pacific region, because of the not unreasonable fear that they would be reverse engineered in the mainland.
    It seems all these ideals about giving away your creations for free are only good in the abstract. I wonder if those people would feel the same if it was their own hard work and creativity that were being given away. Oh, and the guy who was mentioning its ok to pirate books cuz most of his friends make money from concerts and teaching, well why stop with books, if I'm predisposed couldn't I just go ahead and pirate concerts and trade recorded lessons. Musicians generally have a few different income streams that added together might help them make a decent living but reducing any one of them will hurt significantly. The other justification of these people is that im doing the artist a favor by sharing their material with eveyone to help expose them to the world. Well amongst many examples of this type of bullshit is the tradgedy of Allan Holdsworth who unfortunately passed away in relative poverty. I can't think of a better example of why we should rail against this type of thinking and address it whenever it appears.!

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Mr. Kipling and Mr. Dickens were British, New York is not New England. Brush up on your history and geography, artist lol
    I missed that..

    So it was not you I saw last winter with the banjo on teh crossroad in Vermont? (in the Moonlight of course)...

    I know for sure that Mr. K and Mr. D. both are from Oklahoma.

  40. #189

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    Suddenly I felt I wanted to quote my 1st post in this thread.

    To me it is very strange that it was taken so agressively..

    I never uploaded a single file
    Today I buy even when I already have something for free (it happens) - this is my way to respect the author or player.
    I specifically enjoy in buying from minor brands or lesser known players - becasue I want to show them this way there is someone who values their work.

    All this does not cancel the problem that exists and will most probably only grow.
    In modern world one jys cannot believe that in Nepal or Romania everyone will treat in the same way as in Finland or USA - it is a global market (and it's not all subject to American laws or traditions or mentality by the way).

    To me it is more or less obvious that it cannot be controlled in teh same way as with 'hardware'.

    Internet makes a community anyway - and the best way is trying to overview the mentality in it

    the thorough legal control over sales ion the internet will lead to legal control over personal information. Choose.

    I do not know what the solution could be - but I think that probably there is some way to work via Internet providors so that they include some fix price for using downloadable infromation in the internet and that amount collected would make the part of the author's income.
    And the regulation of shares will be complex and doen between authors and providors or some organization in between
    It,s complex but it is more realstic imho.

    For me the most disgusting thing in uploading stuff for free is neglegence to the author's will (whether it concerns the form or the money I do not care)... I as an author just would not want my book to be roughly scanned and uploaded aomewhere without correct editing etc.

    So for me it concerns authorship as concetpion.

    Unfortunately people on both sides think in a very limited way about it: many people who upload just do not think about anything and have no specific philosophy about it..

    They both think that idealism is childish behaviour (and not Platonic philosophiocal school that was one of the three piers of European civilization)
    They think that the fact that the Sun goes around the Earth is an absolute truth.... whereas 600 years ago it was taken the opposite and for both approaches there are elaborated systems to prove very convincing within these cultures.

    Without clear passionate but clear thought there will be nothing, not solutions, no changes, no improvement, no revelations in social life. Don't take anything for granted.
    World today is really changing. I mean not it is ever-changing, not. We now are living in a very important moment - it is changeing dramatically now as it has never changed during past 3000 years maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    The world is big... think about people somehwere who need to save money for a year to buy your work and for whom your work may be a breakthrough or a great support.
    Or those who would never be able to purchase your new CD and your music could make them happier? Isn't it a reward?
    Most musician I know are happy when they are doaloaded even for free becasue they are happy someone listens to them.

    I am always there to support an artist. I try to buy even when I can download - but I can afford it. That's where my conciousness comes from - I can afford it. It's very simple... when you are hungry and you cannot afford food you steal it or starve to death.... that's where the conciousness is rooted.

    But I hate that copyright crap...
    mostly it's there to protect Hollywood producers and IT companies, to protect their speculations on the market...
    not the artists.

    I think it should only protect an authorship and that's it.

    I think goverments and different funds should invest money into it and cover expences to make it common and accesable for everyone.
    So that the artist would be able to maintain his family and those who cannot afford byuing - still would have access to his works.

  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I missed that..

    So it was not you I saw last winter with the banjo on teh crossroad in Vermont? (in the Moonlight of course)...

    I know for sure that Mr. K and Mr. D. both are from Oklahoma.
    ay yay yay you're so confused...

    Yea it was me and i remember you now, I was playing Stars Fell On Alabama and you came to me and said how much you like Lynyrd Skynyrd.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    ay yay yay you're so confused...

    Yea it was me and i remember you now, I was playing Stars Fell On Alabama and you came to me and said how much you like Lynyrd Skynyrd.
    It's impossible - I remember that guy with Stars Falling On Alabama... I first shot him and then said that I really like Lynyrd Skynyrd.

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It's impossible - I remember that guy with Stars Falling On Alabama... I first shot him and then said that I really like Lynyrd Skynyrd.
    Well, you missed! Seems like a pattern here.