20 Ways To Comp A II V I

[m78w]

Hey 604B, glad you dug the lesson, hope if was helpful!~

MW

[jsprankle]

I was just wondering if anyone could explain drop 2, drop 3, and drop 4 voicing for guitar.

Jeff

[m78w]

Sure thing.

Drop 2 chords are always on adjacent strings, either 6543, 5432 or 4321. The root position chord has the intervals R573, so for Cmaj7 it would be CGBE.

Drop 3 chords are on the strings 6432 or 5321 and the root position chord has the intervals R735, so for Cmaj7 CBEG.

MW

[604bourne123]

am i right in saying drop 2 and 3 are what freddie green used as anchor of the count basie band.the large interval gap gave the rhythm guitarist the ability to voice lead using three note chords brush two notes and lead with other note.matt

[m78w]

Yeah Drop 3 chords are very similar to what Freddie used, and some Drop 2's. Fred would usually drop the top note out of the Drop 3 chords.

So instead of C B E G, he just played C B E, which is called a "shell" voicing, because it's just the shell of the chord.

For me Joe Pass is the guy who used Drop 2 and 3 chords to the max, you can find them in almost every bar he ever played that has a chord in it. If you check out his chord solos book there are tons of great chord ideas using these two voicings.

MW

[lifechanger]

This one is definitely great...At 75, still diggin' the scene...just like Les Paul grooving at the Iridium!
I'd love a PDF of the program also!

[mrbeantheconqueror]

I have a question regarding the application of these.

I bought the John Pizzarelli videos from Guitar Instructor.com. So, he recommends to use I-VI-II-V as a way to start a piece, as the V chord will lead to I chord.
I am looking to use this II-V-I-VI to start a piece. Can it be done? Can the VI lead to the I chord?

By the way, why is the VI a b9 chord but not an ordinary minor chord?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Both are commonly found at the start of a piece. And if the pattern repeats, they converge, right? The only difference is where they start:

I-VI-II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI-II-V

II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI

"Can the VI lead to the I chord?" -- as shown above, it's more common for the II-V-I-VI to extend to II-V-I-VI-II-V-I-VI. So the VI leads to the II.

"why is the VI a b9 chord but not an ordinary minor chord" -- it can be an ordinary minor chord, but making it a 7b9 creates more tension -- it really want to resolve to the II chord. In short, it sounds jazzier.

By the way, you can think of the I-VI-II-V as an elaboration on I-I-V-V, and II-V-I-VI as an elaboration on V-V-I-I, so it's just a question of starting on V or starting on I. Some tunes start on V, some start on I, some on something else.

[jasoncmason]

I have a question regarding the application of these.

I bought the John Pizzarelli videos from Guitar Instructor.com. So, he recommends to use I-VI-II-V as a way to start a piece, as the V chord will lead to I chord.
I am looking to use this II-V-I-VI to start a piece. Can it be done? Can the VI lead to the I chord?

By the way, why is the VI a b9 chord but not an ordinary minor chord?

In Key "C" : The VI mi7 is A.C.E.G.....C Maj7 Is C.E.G.B...the VI Mi is nothing but a C Maj6...there is no "defining" difference to the 2 chords
They are essentially the same.
However, make the VI7 a dominant..A.C#.E.G..we have added a "chromatic"
note to the C Major scale....It does not fit the "C" scale. The scale "source"
is really a D Mel Minor...D.E.F.G.A.B.C#.D....The tonal center has changed
dramatically. Comparison to C Major scale...It is a C Major scale with the #Root.
If you use VI7b9 then you add 2 degrees of chromaticism. "TWO" notes differ from the Key of C. The "b9" is a Bb...which is not "native" to the "C
Scale". Now the Scale source is the Melodic Minor scale 1/2 step ABOVE
the root of the VI7 or "Bb Melodic Minor".
Intellectually this stuff is enough to "blow one far away".
Returning to the question of the VI7b9 you would be better playing a
VI7nat9/b13 because the nat 9 (B) is within the C Major scale and the
b13 (F) is also within the scale...so you get the "jazzier" feel but your
ear is not "pulled so far away" from the "naturalness of the tonal key of
"C".

For anyone who knows about the "genius/teacher" Dick Grove he grasps that the "ear tends to constantly want to return to the Key of origin" in almost all jazz standards....regardless of the Key changes it goes thru.
"All the Things You Are". Every time a New dominant is introduced the
upper partials (9.11.13ths) are chosen "by ear" because they reference
back to what Dick called Line 7 (the original key center).Dick defined
9 separate Chord families of distinct sound....II.V.and I in Major (3 separate
families) and IIm7b5.IV7#11. I Minor (3 More) and 3 sets of Dominants with
an assortment of 9's.11's and 13's. All 12 possible Dominants can be played
using his concept of Chord families. This is a MAJOR Undertaking and requires its own thread for those interested.

That's where "bebop" and Bird changed the landscape.

Really you can play anything you want...but without appropriate RESOLUTION... to those with good ears (I'm not really one of them) they
know your just "faking it" .


"He who plays the most, simply plays the least"

[mrblues]

God Bless You Dirk for all your lessons!

Very helpful!

cheers,
laci

[MarkRhodes]

I can view this clearly on my computer, but the music is so faint it's unreadable from my printer. Everything else from my printer (from another source) is clear. Solutions? Anyone else having this issue? I've asked Matt for a pdf file, but there are other lessons I'd like a copy of- same story. Thanks!

I've had that problem too, though I haven't tried to print *this* lesson. Usually, the text comes out okay but the music is faint, with staff lines missing. I've never known what caused that. It happened last week with the Bert Ligon lesson JohnnyPac posted ("Never Play Chords When Comping").

[Reg]

All very cool, standard and well presented... but why don't you label the chords correctly... there is a pretty big problem with young player not having a understand of what there playing and even with your explanation of how lines and notes are working, you might be contributing to this problem, like the spelling of b13 as #5 in most dominant chords... just a thought...
Reg

[Dirk]

@ Reg, why would you want to label all dominant b13 chords as dominant #5 chords? #5 chords come from the altered scale and then you would label the chord as alt chords. b13 chords come from the 5th mode of the harmonic scale and are correctly labeled as b13 chords.

That being said, even though I make mistakes, I don't think I do a bad job spreading the love for jazz guitar. It's very easy to be a critic, it's harder to make a worthwhile contribution, but so much more rewarding.

[mr. beaumont]

Dirk, my only objection with the nomenclature is the usage of "alt" in the example and then referring to the chord having a flat 13th in the written explanation. "Alt" implies that all 5ths and 9ths present are altered, whereas a b13 implies the sixth degree has been lowered, and in theory, allows for a perfect 5th to be included in the chord. I understood what you were getting at perfectly, but perhaps a beginner might not.

Practical application would suggest otherwise, but beginners can get hung up on little things like that--I don't see it as a huge problem, really, maybe just an inconsistency in naming...I guess it would be clearer if the actual name of the chord being implied by the voicing instead of just "alt" was included above the staff in the example, and I'm guessing this is where Reg's criticism comes from.

But I also, could be, and have been, wrong

[JohnW400]

Prior to this forum I never really used a b13 unless the natural 5th actually appears in the voicing.

I understand Dirks thinking that the b13 comes from the Harmonic minor but back in the 70- early 80's the harmonic was not considered a "jazz" scale. It was always the Jazz minor

So you got 13#11 from the Lydian Dominant and 7+/-5 from the altered

The b13 thinking also adds a natural 11th as well. Whereas #5 does not include the 11.

It's probably best to keep it simple to eliminate possible unwanted notes (11,5)

So if you *don't* want the possibility of an 11th in your chord and you *don't* also want the natural 5, Keep the chord as 7#5 up through the 9's (9 , #/b).

If you add 11ths then add the 13th (and if you have both #11 and b13 and you want a fifth.....your on your own)

[Reg]

@ Reg, why would you want to label all dominant b13 chords as dominant #5 chords? #5 chords come from the altered scale and then you would label the chord as alt chords. b13 chords come from the 5th mode of the harmonic scale and are correctly labeled as b13 chords.

That being said, even though I make mistakes, I don't think I do a bad job spreading the love for jazz guitar. It's very easy to be a critic, it's harder to make a worthwhile contribution, but so much more rewarding.

Hey Dirkji... Sorry I wasn't clear... That's one one the biggest mistakes I see in chord symbol labeling, using #5 instead of b13 on Dom. chords...
Altered as you said from 7th degree of Melodic Min.;
1, b9,#9, 3, b5(#11), b13(#5), b7... if we actually spelled in 3rds, we would have VII-7b5 with 1, b9, b3, b11, b5, b13, b7, but the collection of pitches is used and accepted as Altered, by most. And generally the only #5 Dom. chord is from Augmented, whole tone and Dim. Years ago some added #9 to 5th degree of Harmonic Min. or Phrygian Dominant, and added added b9 and #9 to WT... Anyway... the point I was trying to make was why don't you label the chords as to what notes are in them. You can see the problems we have in labeling from Alt. , some think of as altered 9ths and 5ths, I'm from early Berklee school of labeling, #9,b9, , b5 b13, some use #11 instead of b5... but most have no problem, understanding D-9 or what ever chord tones and tensions are used with non-dominant chords. I was just trying to suggest that if the chord has, 1,3,5,b7 and b9 with or without the 5th spell as dom7b9 so unaware players won't use b9 chords( or other altered tension version of chord) when they see V7.
Again wasn't meant to be critical... Sorry, You kick butt up the street, around both corners and out back, and I also try and spread the love for guitar... that's the only reason I'm on this sight. Although I am connecting and becoming friends with some great players and people in general... Thanks Reg

[karnajitsen]

Thanks MW for this lesson.. this is really nice and helpful ... I am digging into it now ..

[JImmyD]

Thank you so much for the lesson. Even though this thread is two years or older the information is priceless and timeless. Well done!
thx again,
Jim

[m78w]

No problem guys glad you dug it!

[m78w]

NP Jimmy glad you dug the lesson.

[ColinO]

Thanks for the lesson. I really appreciate it. I can follow (mostly) how you are harmonizing but was wondering if there is a thought process that you use to pick the melody notes.

[m78w]

Thanks Colin. For the melody notes I just tried to start on a few different notes on the iim7 or iim7b5 chord and then move them up or down from there with small movements. hope that helps!

[ColinO]

Thanks for the quick response. That helps. Great lesson.

[kwstas]

great lessons! thanks for posting it here!

[m78w]

NP thanks for checking it out, glad you dug it!