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I'm not against teaching the Blues, but I'm questioning if it's a good idea to start by teaching a beginner to play minor sounds over a major sounding harmony (Blues).
I'm thinking that maybe it would be more beneficial for beginners, if they learned to hear major sounds over major harmony and minor sounds over minor harmony first, before learning the Blues.
Just asking.
Guy
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02-06-2014 11:24 AM
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IMHO the most beneficial thing for anyone, beginner and advanced, is to learn to play without thinking about scales, positions and substitutions, but just following the sound, and nothing could be better than something simple such as a limited set of notes (pentatonic) and a simple chord progression (blues). A simple diatonic major scale over a I-IV-V progression would work as well.
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Both of my sons' teachers have them playing blues-based jazz, along with regular major and minor jazz, but very pointedly have not taught them the "blues scales". I think they feel it limits their playing/thinking. They are, however, learning major, minor, diminished and whole tone scales.
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Yes start with the blues. I would purchase Aebersold's volume 42. Blues in all 12 keys. His jazz blues has everything. Minor and Major ii V I'. This can be used to develop all chords all scales (includeing blues scales and a ton of neat applications of the pentatonic scale) bebop scales, all arps, all triads, chord soloing, extensions, position playing... you can go so far down the rabbit hole that its crazy. I start my students here.
Besides all that heady stuff capturing the feeling of the blues is really important. I dont know where one would start if they didnt start with the blues.
Yes start with the blues, but dont stop at the typical Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughn stuff.
Go down the rabbit hole
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I'd answer yes to the question. First, blues is the fundamental American music, pervading jazz and rock, etc. So, it's worth exploring and understanding. Second, one can begin with the most basic approach (a single pentatonic scale played over the entire 12-bar form) and evolve into incredible complexities -- all within the same basic construct. That seems very appealing, to me.
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I think the problem is that "guitar blues" has very little resemblance to "jazz blues". All those boxy pentatonic shapes and bendy licks aren't really a part of the jazz tradition, and you end up having to unlearn a lot of what you do in terms of vibrato, phrasing, etc. to become a convincing jazzer.
If you dig SRV and BB King and want to do that in your jazz solos, nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's a good foundation for learning to play "real" jazz.
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Jazz beginner or beginner beginner?
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Ok, I'll have to spell out my main point, which is that in other playing experiences, playing a minor third over the harmony of a Major third is an advanced concept, this is what beginners are taught with the Blues, does it confuse a beginner's ear training.
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No if you teach them to sing everything they play they will get the difference
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I think it's an awful sound, and when I teach somebody to play the blues, I tell them they better do something with that m3 if they're going to hang on it over the I chord...
honestly, that's my yardstick for a "blues" player...if they hang on that m3 over the I and don't tug it up slightly in pitch or hammer on the M3 or SOMETHING--that screams "hack!"
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I find that if they sing their solos they intuitively get tension and release. They sing good sounding notes. It's when they just learn finger patterns and licks that they don't get it. Their brains are not engaged they are not doing anything but wiggling their fingers.
Our ears have good harmonies in them already in my experience this works
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Never seen someone intuitively sing m3 when a M3 was needed
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Just finished a recording session where the singer was overdubbing harmony parts to his main vocal. The part required a maj 3rd. He kept singing the min 3rd, nothing we said could make him change it up when we hit record. He's also a guitar player. My guess is he "hears" the min3rd because he has noodled the blues scale a lot....
Originally Posted by OPherman47
I agree that straight blues playing is like a hillbilly dialect when compared with Shakespeare's English. That's fine, just as long as you don't have aspirations of one day playing Hamlet, King Lear etc.....
Acquiring the "wrong" habits take extra time to undo. I think I speak from experience there!
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Guitar blues is not going to help you to play jazz. Just the opposite. It'll make you think you know about outside sounds and when someone jams a simple non blues tune with you, you will be LOST. Jazz blues is very important but like someone above posted, it has little to do with that pentatonic guitar blues we often hear. If you want to play jazz, you need to play very "inside" sounds (analogous to white keys in the key if C on the piano) for a long time and know what the notes sound like. You can then experiment with adding outside sounds like some have mentioned here. The pentatonic guitar blues scales trick you into thinking you know these sounds because it sounds good over a blues. Take the same tricks and play them over a jazz blues and it's a sure fire way to sound like a hack. If you want to learn jazz, my advice is to get a II-V-I track in all 12 keys and practice making simple melodies over them. You can then increase the complexity of your lines as you get to know the sounds better. This will give you the essential foundation you need. If you can then play a jazz blues at one point, then playing that guitar blues stuff will be a piece of cake and you'll be playing with way less cliches.
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Well that's a new one for me...
. With beginners I have never seen that happen when they sing their solos... I can only guess that that guys only tool was the minor pentatonic scale over many many years... Of course even in guitar blues you hear well sung harmonies with well played major and minor thirds.
Very interesting thoughts princeplanet, have you ever seen a beginner with this problem though? If they are given the major and minor tools diatonic scales first?
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Depends, if kids have been taught blues scales first, then the major pentatonic/blues scale actually seems to sound strange to them! Getting back to the OP question though, personally I agree that kids should learn to drink milk before they drink coffee, so b3, b5 and b7 against major chords should be introduced later in order to be understood better..... Originally Posted by OPherman47
Well that's a new one for me.... With beginners I have never seen that happen when they sing their solos... I can only guess that that guys only tool was the minor pentatonic scale over many many years... Of course even in guitar blues you hear well sung harmonies with well played major and minor thirds.
Very interesting thoughts princeplanet, have you ever seen a beginner with this problem though? If they are given the major and minor tools diatonic scales first?
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I agree, learn minor over major sounds later.
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Just to play devil's advocate, I would have thought that blues sounds were the ones that everybody would be most accustomed to hearing whether one was a musician or not. Beginners may not know what is going on to make those sounds, but you can hardly listen to the radio or watch American Idol or hear the Star Spangled Banner for that matter, without being deluged with blues ideas.
So my vote would be to have beginners learn the instrument by letting them play stuff that they like and are familiar with and that has to include blues.
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Ask a novice piano or horn player to target maj 3rds for every chord in a blues, regardless of other scales used and they can do it, no problem. Why is it then that when you ask a novice guitar player who has taught himself to noodle a little on pentatonic scales to do the same, they fail. They simply will not integrate target notes easily into their improvs. They quickly become too accustomed to the safety of shapes and do not really "pre-hear" anything that they will play. Unless they wish to learn Jazz from the start and have a good teacher....
If you're like most of us who may have started out playing rock/pop/blues etc, there will be a necessary retraining period where you must unlearn all the "intuitive" modal hit-and-miss noodling that pent/blues scales offers the novice.How many rock guys think they'll try a little jazz and have as their first question- " So, what scales are you meant to use for Jazz?", as though you can play Jazz once you know the "right" scales!
Back to the OP point, I'd add that playing maj pent first over blues progressions rather than min pent, although better grounding, is still not helping the novice player to move away from shape noodling which will be the hurdle most players cannot breach when making the move into the world of Jazz improv.Last edited by princeplanet; 02-07-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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I think that learning some traditional blues is an excellent way for a beginner to start making real music. It's a good lesson in how to use phrasing to make a limited note selection sound interesting. But more melodic stuff should be learned at the same time to avoid getting stuck in the box.
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Right but if as Prince points out that people are missing the sound of a major 3rd over major harmony and only have the minor 3 in their ears/brains. That is very problematic.
I guess that I never run into this as I have my beginner students start improvising with instrument and singing on blues first with roots only, then triad arps, then triads as the tools for their improvisations, then i fill in major scales, then 7th arps. yadda yadda yadda.
By that time they time the sounds are in their ears/brain very strongly.
I do this with people who have been playing for a while and only have pentatonic scales under their fingers because they are just finger wigglers. They dont concieve an idea first in their head and then intentionally create that idea on their instrument. Its accidental music not intentional music and is a main reason their lines wont work without chords under them and a reason their lines are generally very weak.
I do this because pentatonic cowboy chord jammers dont know the notes of their neck, triads, and scales in all positions.
This must fix a problem that prince pointed out that I had no idea existed. I am going to have to rethink my teaching methods to test for this descrepancy. (a big thanks to Princeplanet for pointing this out)
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@prince hahaha we were typing our responses at the same time
Also @prince when I teach guitar I teach soloing on chord tones first so that the harmony gets strongly into the students ear and that they have to dig deep into the rythmic world to make their solo's interesting.
Do you see any problems with this approach rather than teaching scales first? I have had great success with this thus far.
I teach the scale patterns and have the students play them but I limit them to soloing on chord tones only for a little while.Last edited by OPherman47; 02-07-2014 at 12:42 PM.
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Problem, are you kidding! That's exactly how I wish I'd started learning! Your students are lucky! Originally Posted by OPherman47
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Exactly, but how many self taught kids will do this? If you wanna learn Jazz guitar from scratch, sure, Jazz blues is mandatory, even very early on, but NO pent shape noodling! That stuff is quickly addictive and hard to shake... Originally Posted by Gilpy
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Its funny because after going down the jazz hole, I had to get solid on my pent shapes and sounds again to get those sounds (I had gone so long without playing them).... Of course my application of those sounds was way better than when I started.
I guess I never had the ear problem because I came out of 8 years of classical piano and the pent shapes were something that I never played on piano but other guitar players showed me to get those rock sounds.
I never saw it (i am guessing) in my already experienced students because I immediately started breaking down all the stuff they didnt know. The note names of the entire neck (I would always joke, you paid for the whole guitar why not use the whole guitar) the triad shapes etc.
Like you said about the horns. I would tell them. Every other musician knows this stuff... What makes you so special. especially when it comes to knowing where all their notes are on the neck.
Every other instrument player knows where all the notes are on their instrument.
Cracks me up. I can only guess that it comes from our folksy/self taught background that is rampant on guitar.
I find the hardest barrier is getting guitarist to be intentional (i.e. pre hear) their music and not be on auto pilot. I get confused as to what those players actually think they are doing.
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